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Topic: A question, for the religious right< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 5:28 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You know the one thing I truly don't understand about the religious right is how strongly they will stand by a pro-life stance, or the "biblical definition" of marriage, yet conveniently shun, what is in my opinion, the more important passages and overarching themes such as the following:

Matthew 25:31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory...the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'"  

This is followed by his followers asking when they did this for Him, and Jesus responds with the famous line about doing for the "least of my brothers and sisters".  

This is of course followed by this little line,

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

So my question is, as a follower of Christ, how can you ignore this passage?  It would seem to me that there isn't much by way of policy in the conservative agenda to help the "least of us".  Unless that help is kicking somebody out onto the curb and tell them, "You're not working hard enough!!"   That's a far cry from feeding a crowd of hundreds from a small basket of fish and bread, which could have been easily shared amongst a select few that were closest with Jesus.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 5:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Evolution of Jesus effect: it's the effect of Calvinism on modern interpretation of the teachings.

See Max Weber, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.

There is a large, though somewhat hidden, relationship between Protestant teachings, via Calvinistic teaching. Worldly success and accumulation of money through that success as a sign of being "elect" or "saved".

QUOTE
The new religions (in particular, Calvinism and other more austere Protestant sects) effectively forbade wastefully using hard earned money and identified the purchase of luxuries as a sin. Donations to an individual's church or congregation were limited due to the rejection by certain Protestant sects of icons. Finally, donation of money to the poor or to charity was generally frowned on as it was seen as furthering beggary. This social condition was perceived as laziness, burdening their fellow man, and an affront to God; by not working, one failed to glorify God.
Wiki: The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

Sound familiar?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 5:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And they're quick to refer to Sodomy as a sin but are even quicker to ignore the reason Sodom was destroyed.

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 7:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, you admire the teachings of Jesus?  Don't let the "religious right" get in the way of that.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 7:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm not part of the religious right but my objection isn't against helping those "less fortunate", it's being forced to do it by mandate of law.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 7:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 21 2012, 6:37 pm)
QUOTE
I'm not part of the religious right but my objection isn't against helping those "less fortunate", it's being forced to do it by mandate of law.

Oh yeah, folks: it's the same reason he doesn't wear a seatbelt. :)
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 7:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Matthew 22: 35-40

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment.39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I am a Christian, that is my goal.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 9:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I just want to be clear that I'm asking this just in general, not because of anything particular that I've heard or read. I'm also not confusing Christianity or being a Republican with a particular subset of the republican party. I guess it just bothers me that religion is used insincerely in politics, and it really should t surprise me. I absolutely mean no disrespect to folks who subscribe to either of the belief systems in particular.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 10:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Sep. 21 2012, 5:40 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 21 2012, 6:37 pm)
QUOTE
I'm not part of the religious right but my objection isn't against helping those "less fortunate", it's being forced to do it by mandate of law.

Oh yeah, folks: it's the same reason he doesn't wear a seatbelt. :)

I've worn my seatbelt since long before it was law and I've also always worn a helmet and full protective gear when on a motorcycle even though over the years I've lived in helmet optional states (including now) because anyone who doesn't is an idiot. But I don't believe in mandated laws to protect people from themselves.

With extremely rare exceptions, mandatory laws requiring one do something because someone else thinks it's good is BS.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 10:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It is mandatory, by law, that you pay taxes to maintain tnterstate highway system -- even if you never venture beyond the backroads of your Montana wilderness  :angry:

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 11:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Pay attention:
QUOTE
With extremely rare exceptions


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 21 2012, 11:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
With extremely rare exceptions, mandatory laws requiring one do something because someone else thinks it's good is BS.
QUOTE
It is mandatory, by law, that you pay taxes to maintain tnterstate highway system -- even if you never venture beyond the backroads of your Montana wilderness.
...and here I was, DW, trying to avoid making a comment about that...er...statement of unmitigated egotistical, self-serving, self-centered antisocial spite.

I have relatives who share these opinions about "undue outside influence" and the "demands of the community" on their solitary lifestyle. Not a single one posts on an Internet forum, however. I think maybe one has an actual computer. No cell phones. All that's just too "tribal" for them. Smacks of the “village” and “responsibility”.

One begins to wonder a number of things, like:
1) how many are there out there who are like this?
2) are they all of a type?
3) or are "lone wolves" who post on Internet forums really all that "lone", not to mention "wolfy"?

My relatives are very "lone" and very "wolflike". I suspect they don't even know about Facebook or Twitter, much less post their activities to those places.

You know, I try very hard to be nice, but I have serious questions about the nature of these things...
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 2:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Sep. 21 2012, 5:28 pm)
QUOTE
You know the one thing I truly don't understand about the religious right is how strongly they will stand by a pro-life stance, or the "biblical definition" of marriage, yet conveniently shun, what is in my opinion, the more important passages and overarching themes such as the following:

Matthew 25:31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory...the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'"  

This is followed by his followers asking when they did this for Him, and Jesus responds with the famous line about doing for the "least of my brothers and sisters".  

This is of course followed by this little line,

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

So my question is, as a follower of Christ, how can you ignore this passage?  It would seem to me that there isn't much by way of policy in the conservative agenda to help the "least of us".  Unless that help is kicking somebody out onto the curb and tell them, "You're not working hard enough!!"   That's a far cry from feeding a crowd of hundreds from a small basket of fish and bread, which could have been easily shared amongst a select few that were closest with Jesus.

Good question.  I'll provide two answers:

1.  The following claim is false: "It would seem to me that there isn't much by way of policy in the conservative agenda to help the "least of us".  Unless that help is kicking somebody out onto the curb and tell them, "You're not working hard enough!!"   So the premise upon which you based your question is completely false.  One could call it a strawman.

2.  Money forcibly taken by the government and distributed to the needy does NOT satisfy the requirements of the bible pasages you quoted.  You completely fail to understand Christian philosophy.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 2:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 22 2012, 2:40 pm)
QUOTE
1.  The following claim is false: "It would seem to me that there isn't much by way of policy in the conservative agenda to help the "least of us".  Unless that help is kicking somebody out onto the curb and tell them, "You're not working hard enough!!"   So the premise upon which you based your question is completely false.  One could call it a strawman.

What evidence do you have that his perception of conservative policy is not true? I know you Mormons are big on making stuff up and claiming it's factual but calling something a straw man, doesn't make it one.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 2:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 22 2012, 2:40 pm)
QUOTE
You completely fail to understand Christian philosophy.

He seems better versed on it than you do, as are most of us. Perhaps you're confusing Christianity with Smithianism.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 4:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 22 2012, 1:40 pm)
QUOTE
2.  Money forcibly taken by the government and distributed to the needy does NOT satisfy the requirements of the bible pasages you quoted.  You completely fail to understand Christian philosophy.
Though Ken (consciously?) doesn't support this statement with anything resembling a positive statement of what does constitute "understanding of Christian philosophy" or why this wouldn't be "Christian charity", and why "helping the needy" is not a Christian priority, but let me make a wild guess: the Christian interpretation of those verses from Matthew is that they refer to other Christians only (though, as we know, there were no Christians at the time, just "apostles of Christ").

So "Christian charity" doesn't really extend to non-Christians, except in the case in which there is some chance of conversion of the targets of charity, or some chance of "positive reflection" on Christians or "Christian charity" as a concept/notion.

What Ken doesn't say here is that "Christian charity", via the standard interpretations, never goes so far that it reaches outside the "followers of Jesus", except for those rare exceptions.

No "literal" interpretations of scripture without recognizing that, when citing scripture, it's written by, for and about "Christians". It's not fair, but they get to say how they run "their club" - but they don't really want the rest of us to actually know it's a "club". For them. Only for them. (We can peek in, but the club is open only to those ready to "accept Jesus".)

...but you knew that.

ETA: And, now, Ken will proceed to explain the "forcibly" part, and how that negates "free will", or some such...

...but you knew that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

2 Thessalonians 3:10

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 9:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Sep. 22 2012, 8:59 pm)
QUOTE
2 Thessalonians 3:10

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Didn't you admit earlier that you're a freeloader?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 9:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No I didn't admit anything.  You said I was a freeloader and arrogant.  

Just because I didn't disagree with you doesn't mean I agree with you either.

I was taught It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.

He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
He’s a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.

In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!

It’s better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.

It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.


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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 9:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

[quote=gunslinger,Sep. 22 2012, 9:38 pm][/quote]
QUOTE
No I didn't admit anything.  You said I was a freeloader and arrogant.  


And you said you were a freeloader. Either that or you were avoiding answering my question that would have demonstrated some serious hypocrisy on your part.

QUOTE
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.


You've lost the argument so you resort to ad hominem. Show some decency and admit you're wrong to be as selfish as you are with public land. Your attacks just demonstrate further character flaws.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 9:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Sep. 22 2012, 9:38 pm)
QUOTE
I was taught It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.

He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
He’s a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.

In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!

It’s better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.

It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.

You can't argue with that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 9:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Sep. 22 2012, 9:46 pm)
QUOTE

(gunslinger @ Sep. 22 2012, 9:38 pm)
QUOTE
I was taught It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.

He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
He’s a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.

In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!

It’s better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.

It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.

You can't argue with that.

Well it's written in quatrain, so how can you?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 9:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Me selfish with public land?  You're the one who wants to exclude the things you don't like.  I'm the one that wants to include even the things I don't like.

It's public land, free for all to use, not just the 25 year old macho men.

You try to argue about fee's.

I say I've already paid.

You want me to pay more.

I tell you no.

You don't like it and start calling names.

Now, who really lost?


--------------
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 10:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Sep. 22 2012, 9:55 pm)
QUOTE
You're the one who wants to exclude the things you don't like.

Like selfish people who want to destroy public property? You got me. I'm guilty. I want to exclude those people.

QUOTE
 I'm the one that wants to include even the things I don't like.


Like funding maintenance of national parks? Wow, you're a saint.

QUOTE
It's public land, free for all to use, not just the 25 year old macho men.


It's not free. Someone donated it or paid for it. Others have to maintain it. Some of us do. Others, like yourself, make that task harder.

QUOTE
You try to argue about fee's.

I say I've already paid.


Four dollars per year. You're a champ.

QUOTE
You want me to pay more.

I tell you no.


Why pay to stay at Catolochee but not offer some assistance to maintaining GSMNP?

QUOTE
You don't like it and start calling names.

Now, who really lost?


What names? You're the one using the word fool. Don't you know what Jesus said about people like you?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 10:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Look, only the legislature has the power to levy a tax.

Obama care was ruled legal because it isn't a fee as it was sold, but in reality a tax and legally passed by the legislature.

Just because the National Park service decides it needs more money doesn't give it the constitutional right to levy and impose a tax.  This will be solved by litigation.

I already pay the tax that the legislature imposed.  

I've already said I'd donate.  

Why donate?  Because by donating I get to set the agenda.  If I don't agree with the agenda then I don't have to donate.  Also by donating I get a small tax deduction.  Win, win for me.

I don't think we're going to agree on this and you calling me names like freeloader and arrogant isn't endearing me your cause.  You are not winning the hearts and minds by trying to be an internet bully.

Now, as far as damaging the park.

Theodore Roosevelt was an avid horseman and most of his exploits into the back country was by horseback.  Do you think he would want horses excluded from National Parks?  Personally I think he'd be shocked by how few horses are using the park.

Man damages the park far more than animals such as horses because man makes and maintains the trails, builds roads and structures and other wise uses the natural resources inside the Park.  Maybe we should just exclude all travel by people inside the park?

Once again, a fee works to limit access and thus excludes those in the lower economic rung who simply don't have the 4 bucks.

To get back on topic.  I think we are obligated to care for those who can't care for themselves.  We are not obligated to care for those who can care for themselves but make no effort to provide for themselves.

There is a huge difference between can't work and won't work.


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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 11:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Sep. 22 2012, 10:40 pm)
QUOTE
I already pay the tax that the legislature imposed.  

Which amounts to $4/ year.

QUOTE
I've already said I'd donate.  


Have you? You were just there a couple days ago.

QUOTE
Why donate?  Because by donating I get to set the agenda.
 

No you don't. Have you never donated to anything before? Your donation goes into a pot. You don't get to decide sh*t.

QUOTE
I don't think we're going to agree on this and you calling me names like freeloader and arrogant isn't endearing me your cause.  You are not winning the hearts and minds by trying to be an internet bully.


Quit you're goddamn whining. Many of us have endured your BS for years and never said anything except via private PM. Well, that time is over. We're calling you out. Act like a man. Support your hobbies by providing something in return. Quit freeloading.

QUOTE
Now, as far as damaging the park. Theodore Roosevelt was an avid horseman and most of his exploits into the back country was by horseback.  Do you think he would want horses excluded from National Parks?  Personally I think he'd be shocked by how few horses are using the park.


Teddy Roosevelt? Are you *ucking kidding me? His horses weren't traveling established trails funded and maintained by me and other taxpayers.

QUOTE
Man damages the park far more than animals such as horses because man makes and maintains the trails, builds roads and structures and other wise uses the natural resources inside the Park.  Maybe we should just exclude all travel by people inside the park?


People build those trails. Your horses didn't do S*it, except *hit all over the place.

QUOTE
There is a huge difference between can't work and won't work.


Can you work? If so, get your ass out there and maintain some trails your horses have screwed up.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 11:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There ya go, cursing again.

Trust me, you don't have to curse to be a man.

Besides, you might want to read the terms of use agreement.

I'm thinking that profanity is explicitly prohibited.  

What do you have against god anyway?


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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 11:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Sep. 22 2012, 11:39 pm)
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There ya go, cursing again.

So what? You are over the age of 12 aren't you?

Show us how to be a man. Man up and stop freeloading.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 11:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What you mean is man up and agree with you isn't it?

This fee matter is headed to the courts where they will decide.

Disagreeing with an unconstitutional tax isn't freeloading.

I get to set the agenda by donating because if I don't agree with the agenda I don't donate.   That's the way the system works.  Money, the root of all evils.....seems the people that have it get to set the policy don't they?


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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2012, 11:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

The root of all evil is selfishness.
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