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nogods 
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Posted on: Oct. 18 2012, 7:27 pm |
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For those of you who believe abortion is the taking of a life, do you agree or disagree (and why) with the following exceptions:
1. Pregnancy from incest. Is it OK to take a life?
2. Pregnancy from rape. Is it OK to take a life?
3. Pregnancy endangering life of mother. Is it OK to take a life?
4. Pregnancy endangering political life of father.
Meet Scott DesJarlais, The GOP Congressman Who Is Anti-Abortion… Except For His Lover
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Raznation
Why surf when you can make waves!
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 7:13 am |
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'article not found'
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nogods
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 7:30 am |
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can't link to the article for some reason - it can be found by searching for "Meet Scott DesJarlais"
Alternate story source:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012....84.html
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kyle2193
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 10:55 am |
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The problem with the whole abortion debate is people frame a legal question in a moral context.
Without a doubt, life begins at contraception. Before it, there is no possibility of life and all human life begins with it.
However, legally, we kill people all the time. We have no problem doing it, either.
The legal question is when does the fetus' rights trump the mother right to choose?
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If I cannot swear in heaven I shall not stay there.
-Mark Twain
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Bateauxdriver
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 11:28 am |
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Abortion should be handed down to the states to decide. It's one of many issues the federal government should not have a part of.
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TigerFan
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 11:44 am |
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Let me get this straight.
Scott DesJarlais is an "anti-abortion family values" Congressman who is also a doctor and he had an affair with a patient, got her pregnant, and then tried to pressure her into having an abortion.
Wow. It's hard to know where to start. At the very least, I would hope that Tennessee could do better.
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Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 12:42 pm |
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(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 9:14 am)
QUOTE QUOTE But I'd take exception to "human life" beginning at conception: the oocyte and sperm are both living: and they are both human. So "before" there absolutely had to have been life.
Is the joining of the two not the moment that a new life gets its start? Does recongizing this somehow deminish the pro choice argument? I don't think so and I'm pro choice.
Since it is biological nonsense I'm of the opinion it does diminish the discussion. BOTH oocyte and sperm are living cells. That are living human cells is simply fact so "new life"? No not at all.
My guess is that's at least somewhat tangled in the necessity from some religious standpoint to have a distinct individual for a soul to inhabit: otherwise there's the risk of falling into the heresy of reincarnation....
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nogods
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 3:06 pm |
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(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 12:10 pm)
QUOTE
(nogods @ Oct. 19 2012, 12:00 pm)
QUOTE How do you define "life"?
Does your definition of life allow for the exclusion of any body parts?
What portions of your body are not "life"?
If cut off your finger have you taken a life? How about if you cut your hair? Or spill your seed?
Aren't fingers and hair and sperm alive?
What distinguishes fingers, hair, and sperm from your definition of "life"? All individuals, by any measure that you give, got their start when a woman's ovum is fertalized by a man's sperm. You bring up silly arguments like a body part to try and attach a moral or legal value to the question, but there is no morality in my statement. That is when it begins. Is it morally okay to kill it at that point? Legally? Those are two different questions.
Silly arguments, but you can't resove any of them because your assertion that "life" begins at conception is just an empty naked claim without reasoning or rationale to support it. Otherwise you would have been able to distinguish fingers, hair, and sperm from a fetus.
Claiming "life" begins at conception doesn't define life. It begs the question.
Either all of your body parts are "life" or they are not. At the very least, until hair or a fetus can survive absent connection to the host it is not separate "life." It is an appendage of the "life" it depends on. Is it immoral to get a hair cut?
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Ecocentric
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 3:27 pm |
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We wouldn't be having this conversation if men got pregnant!
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 3:28 pm |
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(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 11:48 am)
QUOTE QUOTE Since it is biological nonsense I'm of the opinion it does diminish the discussion. BOTH oocyte and sperm are living cells. That are living human cells is simply fact so "new life"? No not at all. They are living cells, but they are of their host. The fertilization of the egg is the combination of the two, into its own life with its own unique DNA sequence. There is no need to bring religious nonsense into it.
The dna sequence isn't unique either: it's an exact copy of the two collections of sequences present in the oocyte and sperm along with any errors present in both.
Given that both the sperm and oocyte are alive the "life" that is present in the fertilized egg is a continuation not something new.
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N2theWild
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 11:14 am |
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What would a thread be without bringing racism to the table.
Very classy guys.
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For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, (2 Timothy 4:3)
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wwwest
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 6:36 pm |
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You can't have any discussion that defends the purity of states rights without having a thourough review of regional racist policies, slavery, civil rights, education for minorities, voting rights for all but white males who own property and fair employment practices for women, children and minorities.
Without the Federal justice system and national laws mandating these basic human rights this country would be an economic backwater looking to Brazil for leadership. IMHO, of course.
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Tuffy2toes
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 8:07 pm |
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It's just a parasite until it can live on it's own.
Should be an abortion clinic on every street corner in every town open 24/7/365.
Walk on in, grab a number and wait your turn. No age restriction, term limit, no nothing. On demand and paid for by the goverment.
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| Post Number: 22
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Gabby
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 8:42 pm |
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(Ecocentric @ Oct. 19 2012, 2:27 pm)
QUOTE We wouldn't be having this conversation if men got pregnant!
And that is as close to the absolute truth on this subject anyone is ever likely to get.
Going further, my bet would be that no religion founded by such childbearing men (as opposed to those founded by childbearing women) would be liable to proscribe any activity related to childbirth, but would instead enshrine all aspects of it as “sacred”.
(wwwest @ Oct. 22 2012, 5:36 pm)
QUOTE You can't have any discussion that defends the purity of states rights without having a thourough review of regional racist policies, slavery, civil rights, education for minorities, voting rights for all but white males who own property and fair employment practices for women, children and minorities.
Without the Federal justice system and national laws mandating these basic human rights this country would be an economic backwater looking to Brazil for leadership. IMHO, of course. I truly wish I’d said this, because it’s what I’m thinking, though not nearly as concisely and accurately stated, whenever anyone starts talking “state’s rights”.
(Tuffy2toes @ Oct. 22 2012, 7:07 pm)
QUOTE It's just a parasite until it can live on it's own.
Should be an abortion clinic on every street corner in every town open 24/7/365.
Walk on in, grab a number and wait your turn. No age restriction, term limit, no nothing. On demand and paid for by the goverment. This is just the flip side of the other totally ridiculous argument on this issue.
People, being conscious beings with the ability to plan ahead, should be able to, and usually are able to, avoid, except for very rare occasions and circumstances, the need for extreme measures such as abortion.
NOTE & FYI: the same persons who are outrageously opposed to abortion are also opposed to sex education and the use of reasonable birth control. They know their agenda, and it is not the protection of life.
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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Tuffy2toes
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 10:54 pm |
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(Gabby @ Oct. 22 2012, 8:42 pm)
QUOTE
(Tuffy2toes @ Oct. 22 2012, 7:07 pm)
QUOTE It's just a parasite until it can live on it's own.
Should be an abortion clinic on every street corner in every town open 24/7/365.
Walk on in, grab a number and wait your turn. No age restriction, term limit, no nothing. On demand and paid for by the goverment. This is just the flip side of the other totally ridiculous argument on this issue. People, being conscious beings with the ability to plan ahead, should be able to, and usually are able to, avoid, except for very rare occasions and circumstances, the need for extreme measures such as abortion.
Come down from the clouds Gabby!
Try walking in the hoods of NYC and talk to some of "sisters" and see how good they are at "planning ahead"! LOL!
You know what the most confusing holiday is in the hood? Father's Day!
Thank god for abortions, this country is going broke between paying for healthcare, food, schooling, jails, law enforcement, housing and on and on of unwanted children that are born to misfits of society.
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Gabby
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 11:09 pm |
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"Try walking in the hoods of NYC and talk to some of "sisters" and see how good they are at "planning ahead"!"
But that wouldn't have anything to do with virtually all big church organizations running interference on, rather than promoting, women's reproductive health care and birth control. Of course not.
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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CharlesTheHammer
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 11:19 pm |
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This is an easy one: I support Pro-choice til about 3-4 months of pregnancy, with no exceptions. I say 3 to 4, because I dont personally know enough about all the details of pregnancy to say which month should be the limit, but I do not support partial birth abortion on demand.
I disagree with ROmney in this issue, but he doesnt support forcing women to go forward with the pregnancy if rape or incest is involved, even though some have lied by saying otherwise.
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Ecocentric
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 11:39 pm |
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Tuffy sounds like a racist.
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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Gabby
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Posted on: Oct. 23 2012, 12:00 am |
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(CharlesTheHammer @ Oct. 22 2012, 10:19 pm)
QUOTE I disagree with ROmney in this issue, but he doesnt support forcing women to go forward with the pregnancy if rape or incest is involved, even though some have lied by saying otherwise.
Direct from the 2012 GOP Platform
“Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children.”
http://www.gop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012GOPPlatform.pdf
Yeah, you can claim, along with all the other attempts to “soften his image” that Romney doesn’t stand for what the Republican Party clearly stands, but you forget all the nut cases in the House, Romney’s hand-picked Catholic Vice Presidential candidate and the overwhelmingly Catholic Supreme Court.
And you forget that Romney wants the Presidency more than he wants anything else. Once in office, he’d never succumb to the pressure from the wacko wing of the GOP/Tea Party, of course.
Nah, I’m not buying it.
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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kyle2193
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Posted on: Oct. 23 2012, 9:46 am |
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(nogods @ Oct. 19 2012, 3:06 pm)
QUOTE Silly arguments, but you can't resove any of them because your assertion that "life" begins at conception is just an empty naked claim without reasoning or rationale to support it. Otherwise you would have been able to distinguish fingers, hair, and sperm from a fetus.
Claiming "life" begins at conception doesn't define life. It begs the question.
Either all of your body parts are "life" or they are not. At the very least, until hair or a fetus can survive absent connection to the host it is not separate "life." It is an appendage of the "life" it depends on. Is it immoral to get a hair cut?
Biologically, the human life cycle begins at conception. This isn't some disputed fact, it is when it begins. If I cut my hair off, I am not interrupting the life cycle that you and I both started from.
Making the comparison between an abortion and getting a hair cut it stupid. Really, really stupid. If I'm at a pro choice function with you and you said that, I'm moving across the room. Pretending that it is the same shows that you really don't understand what you are doing.
The question isn't about defining life, it never has. The question is as Justice Blackmun correctly stated:
We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a nonresident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life. These interests are separate and distinct. Each grows in substantiality as the woman approaches term and, at a point during pregnancy, each becomes "compelling."
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If I cannot swear in heaven I shall not stay there.
-Mark Twain
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
