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Topic: The Abortion Exceptions - do you agree?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 18 2012, 7:27 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

For those of you who believe abortion is the taking of a life, do you agree or disagree (and why) with the following exceptions:

1. Pregnancy from incest.  Is it OK to take a life?

2. Pregnancy from rape.  Is it OK to take a life?

3. Pregnancy endangering life of mother.  Is it OK to take a life?

4. Pregnancy endangering political life of father.

Meet Scott DesJarlais, The GOP Congressman Who Is Anti-Abortion… Except For His Lover
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 7:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

'article not found'

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 7:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

can't link to the article for some reason - it can be found by searching for "Meet Scott DesJarlais"

Alternate story source:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012....84.html
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 10:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The problem with the whole abortion debate is people frame a legal question in a moral context.

Without a doubt, life begins at contraception. Before it, there is no possibility of life and all human life begins with it.

However, legally, we kill people all the time. We have no problem doing it, either.
The legal question is when does the fetus' rights trump the mother right to choose?


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 11:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Abortion should be handed down to the states to decide. It's one of many issues the federal government should not have a part of.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 11:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bateauxdriver @ Oct. 19 2012, 11:28 am)
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Abortion should be handed down to the states to decide. It's one of many issues the federal government should not have a part of.

Why is that? The whole state's rights issue is so played. State lines are a totally antiquated notion. We should remove all of them.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 11:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Let me get this straight.

Scott DesJarlais is an "anti-abortion family values" Congressman who is also a doctor and he had an affair with a patient, got her pregnant, and then tried to pressure her into having an abortion.

Wow.  It's hard to know where to start.  At the very least, I would hope that Tennessee could do better.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 12:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 10:55 am)
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Without a doubt, life begins at contraception. Before it, there is no possibility of life and all human life begins with it.

How do you define "life"?  

Does your definition of life allow for the exclusion of any body parts?

What portions of your body are not "life"?

If cut off your finger have you taken a life?  How about if you cut your hair?  Or spill your seed?

Aren't fingers and hair and sperm alive?

What distinguishes fingers, hair, and sperm from your definition of "life"?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 12:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 7:55 am)
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The problem with the whole abortion debate is people frame a legal question in a moral context.

Without a doubt, life begins at contraception. Before it, there is no possibility of life and all human life begins with it.

However, legally, we kill people all the time. We have no problem doing it, either.
The legal question is when does the fetus' rights trump the mother right to choose?

I agree the overlap between a religious (moral) issue and legal one causes a lot of the tension it seems to me as well. Similarly with marriage equality.

But I'd take exception to "human life" beginning at conception: the oocyte and sperm are both living: and they are both human. So "before" there absolutely had to have been life, living entities that were for sure human.

[edited to expand on it]: Perhaps a bit down in the biology weeds but that speaks to the above point about the boundaries of the discussion re hair, limbs etc. and the crafting of a moral argument (or in many cases a legal one) founded on erroneous biological underpinnings.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 12:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Oct. 19 2012, 12:00 pm)
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How do you define "life"?  

Does your definition of life allow for the exclusion of any body parts?

What portions of your body are not "life"?

If cut off your finger have you taken a life?  How about if you cut your hair?  Or spill your seed?

Aren't fingers and hair and sperm alive?

What distinguishes fingers, hair, and sperm from your definition of "life"?

All individuals, by any measure that you give, got their start when a woman's ovum is fertalized by a man's sperm.

You bring up silly arguments like a body part to try and attach a moral or legal value to the question, but there is no morality in my statement. That is when it begins. Is it morally okay to kill it at that point? Legally? Those are two different questions.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 12:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
But I'd take exception to "human life" beginning at conception: the oocyte and sperm are both living: and they are both human. So "before" there absolutely had to have been life.


Is the joining of the two not the moment that a new life gets its start? Does recongizing this somehow deminish the pro choice argument? I don't think so and I'm pro choice.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 12:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 9:14 am)
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But I'd take exception to "human life" beginning at conception: the oocyte and sperm are both living: and they are both human. So "before" there absolutely had to have been life.


Is the joining of the two not the moment that a new life gets its start? Does recongizing this somehow deminish the pro choice argument? I don't think so and I'm pro choice.

Since it is biological nonsense I'm of the opinion it does diminish the discussion. BOTH oocyte and sperm are living cells. That are living human cells is simply fact so "new life"? No not at all.

My guess is that's at least somewhat tangled in the necessity from some religious standpoint to have a distinct individual for a soul to inhabit: otherwise there's the risk of falling into the heresy of reincarnation....
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 2:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Since it is biological nonsense I'm of the opinion it does diminish the discussion. BOTH oocyte and sperm are living cells. That are living human cells is simply fact so "new life"? No not at all.


They are living cells, but they are of their host. The fertilization of the egg is the combination of the two, into its own life with its own unique DNA sequence. There is no need to bring religious nonsense into it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 3:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 12:10 pm)
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(nogods @ Oct. 19 2012, 12:00 pm)
QUOTE
How do you define "life"?  

Does your definition of life allow for the exclusion of any body parts?

What portions of your body are not "life"?

If cut off your finger have you taken a life?  How about if you cut your hair?  Or spill your seed?

Aren't fingers and hair and sperm alive?

What distinguishes fingers, hair, and sperm from your definition of "life"?

All individuals, by any measure that you give, got their start when a woman's ovum is fertalized by a man's sperm.

You bring up silly arguments like a body part to try and attach a moral or legal value to the question, but there is no morality in my statement. That is when it begins. Is it morally okay to kill it at that point? Legally? Those are two different questions.

Silly arguments, but you can't resove any of them because your assertion that "life" begins at conception is just an empty naked claim without reasoning or rationale to support it.  Otherwise you would have been able to distinguish fingers, hair, and sperm from a fetus.

Claiming "life" begins at conception doesn't define life.  It begs the question.

Either all of your body parts are "life" or they are not. At the very least, until hair or a fetus can survive absent connection to the host it is not separate "life."  It is an appendage of the "life" it depends on.  Is it immoral to get a hair cut?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 3:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We wouldn't be having this conversation if men got pregnant!

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 3:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(kyle2193 @ Oct. 19 2012, 11:48 am)
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QUOTE
Since it is biological nonsense I'm of the opinion it does diminish the discussion. BOTH oocyte and sperm are living cells. That are living human cells is simply fact so "new life"? No not at all.


They are living cells, but they are of their host. The fertilization of the egg is the combination of the two, into its own life with its own unique DNA sequence. There is no need to bring religious nonsense into it.

The dna sequence isn't unique either: it's an exact copy of the two collections of sequences present in the oocyte and sperm along with any errors present in both.

Given that both the sperm and oocyte are alive the "life" that is present in the fertilized egg is a continuation not something new.
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(Bateauxdriver @ Oct. 19 2012, 7:28 am)
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Abortion should be handed down to the states to decide. It's one of many issues the federal government should not have a part of.

If the issue involves women's rights, then it absolutely trumps state's rights; just as all civil rights issues do.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 5:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Walkinman @ Oct. 19 2012, 4:52 pm)
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(Bateauxdriver @ Oct. 19 2012, 7:28 am)
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Abortion should be handed down to the states to decide. It's one of many issues the federal government should not have a part of.

If the issue involves women's rights, then it absolutely trumps state's rights; just as all civil rights issues do.

Exactly.

Some claim all matters regarding schools should also be left to the states.  They don't want to have to deal with stuff like this:

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 11:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What would a thread be without bringing racism to the table.

Very classy guys.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 6:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You can't have any discussion that defends the purity of states rights without having a thourough review of regional racist policies, slavery, civil rights, education for minorities, voting rights for all but white males who own property and fair employment practices for women, children and minorities.

Without the Federal justice system and national laws mandating these basic human rights this country would be an economic backwater looking to Brazil for leadership.  IMHO, of course.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 8:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's just a parasite until it can live on it's own.

Should be an abortion clinic on every street corner in every town open 24/7/365.

Walk on in, grab a number and wait your turn. No age restriction, term limit, no nothing. On demand and paid for by the goverment.
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(Ecocentric @ Oct. 19 2012, 2:27 pm)
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We wouldn't be having this conversation if men got pregnant!

And that is as close to the absolute truth on this subject anyone is ever likely to get.

Going further, my bet would be that no religion founded by such childbearing men (as opposed to those founded by childbearing women) would be liable to proscribe any activity related to childbirth, but would instead enshrine all aspects of it as “sacred”.

(wwwest @ Oct. 22 2012, 5:36 pm)
QUOTE
You can't have any discussion that defends the purity of states rights without having a thourough review of regional racist policies, slavery, civil rights, education for minorities, voting rights for all but white males who own property and fair employment practices for women, children and minorities.

Without the Federal justice system and national laws mandating these basic human rights this country would be an economic backwater looking to Brazil for leadership.  IMHO, of course.
I truly wish I’d said this, because it’s what I’m thinking, though not nearly as concisely and accurately stated, whenever anyone starts talking “state’s rights”.

(Tuffy2toes @ Oct. 22 2012, 7:07 pm)
QUOTE
It's just a parasite until it can live on it's own.

Should be an abortion clinic on every street corner in every town open 24/7/365.

Walk on in, grab a number and wait your turn. No age restriction, term limit, no nothing. On demand and paid for by the goverment.
This is just the flip side of the other totally ridiculous argument on this issue.

People, being conscious beings with the ability to plan ahead, should be able to, and usually are able to, avoid, except for very rare occasions and circumstances, the need for extreme measures such as abortion.

NOTE & FYI: the same persons who are outrageously opposed to abortion are also opposed to sex education and the use of reasonable birth control. They know their agenda, and it is not the protection of life.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 10:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Oct. 22 2012, 8:42 pm)
QUOTE

(Tuffy2toes @ Oct. 22 2012, 7:07 pm)
QUOTE
It's just a parasite until it can live on it's own.

Should be an abortion clinic on every street corner in every town open 24/7/365.

Walk on in, grab a number and wait your turn. No age restriction, term limit, no nothing. On demand and paid for by the goverment.
This is just the flip side of the other totally ridiculous argument on this issue.

People, being conscious beings with the ability to plan ahead, should be able to, and usually are able to, avoid, except for very rare occasions and circumstances, the need for extreme measures such as abortion.

Come down from the clouds Gabby!

Try walking in the hoods of NYC and talk to some of "sisters" and see how good they are at "planning ahead"!  LOL!

You know what the most confusing holiday is in the hood? Father's Day!

Thank god for abortions, this country is going broke between paying for healthcare, food, schooling, jails, law enforcement, housing and on and on of unwanted children that are born to misfits of society.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 11:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Try walking in the hoods of NYC and talk to some of "sisters" and see how good they are at "planning ahead"!"

But that wouldn't have anything to do with virtually all big church organizations running interference on, rather than promoting, women's reproductive health care and birth control. Of course not.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 11:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is an easy one: I support Pro-choice til about 3-4 months of pregnancy, with no exceptions. I say 3 to 4, because I dont personally know enough about all the details of pregnancy to say which month should be the limit, but I do not support partial birth abortion on demand.

I disagree with ROmney in this issue, but he doesnt support forcing women to go forward with the pregnancy if rape or incest is involved, even though some have lied by saying otherwise.
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Tuffy sounds like a racist.

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(CharlesTheHammer @ Oct. 22 2012, 10:19 pm)
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I disagree with ROmney in this issue, but he doesnt support forcing women to go forward with the pregnancy if rape or incest is involved, even though some have lied by saying otherwise.

Direct from the 2012 GOP Platform
“Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children.”
http://www.gop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012GOPPlatform.pdf

Yeah, you can claim, along with all the other attempts to “soften his image” that Romney doesn’t stand for what the Republican Party clearly stands, but you forget all the nut cases in the House, Romney’s hand-picked Catholic Vice Presidential candidate and the overwhelmingly Catholic Supreme Court.

And you forget that Romney wants the Presidency more than he wants anything else. Once in office, he’d never succumb to the pressure from the wacko wing of the GOP/Tea Party, of course.

Nah, I’m not buying it.
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(TigerFan @ Oct. 19 2012, 10:44 am)
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Let me get this straight.

Scott DesJarlais is an "anti-abortion family values" Congressman who is also a doctor and he had an affair with a patient, got her pregnant, and then tried to pressure her into having an abortion.

Wow.  It's hard to know where to start.  At the very least, I would hope that Tennessee could do better.

You forgot about his four point plan to save his marriage.

1. record phone conversation with woman about getting a abortion.

2. play recording to wife so that she may better understand what is going on.

3. sign the divorce papers.

4. try to figure out why the plan didnt work.

LuTz


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(nogods @ Oct. 19 2012, 3:06 pm)
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Silly arguments, but you can't resove any of them because your assertion that "life" begins at conception is just an empty naked claim without reasoning or rationale to support it.  Otherwise you would have been able to distinguish fingers, hair, and sperm from a fetus.

Claiming "life" begins at conception doesn't define life.  It begs the question.

Either all of your body parts are "life" or they are not. At the very least, until hair or a fetus can survive absent connection to the host it is not separate "life."  It is an appendage of the "life" it depends on.  Is it immoral to get a hair cut?

Biologically, the human life cycle begins at conception. This isn't some disputed fact, it is when it begins. If I cut my hair off, I am not interrupting the life cycle that you and I both started from.  

Making the comparison between an abortion and getting a hair cut it stupid. Really, really stupid. If I'm at a pro choice function with you and you said that, I'm moving across the room. Pretending that it is the same shows that you really don't understand what you are doing.

The question isn't about defining life, it never has. The question is as Justice Blackmun correctly stated:

We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a nonresident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life. These interests are separate and distinct. Each grows in substantiality as the woman approaches term and, at a point during pregnancy, each becomes "compelling."


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(Tuffy2toes @ Oct. 22 2012, 10:54 pm)
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Thank god for abortions,

Irony at it's finest.

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