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Topic: GOP Candidate Mourdock, Raped? God intended that to happen< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 8:00 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No further comments needed:

Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock said pregnancies resulting from rape are part of God's plan, tearfully explaining that he only supports abortions when a mother's life is in danger.

"I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen," Mourdock said during Tuesday's Senate debate, choking up. Mourdock's opponent, Democratic Rep. Joe Donnelly, opposes abortion except in cases of rape and incest.

After the debate, Mourdock further explained his comment.

"Are you trying to suggest somehow that God preordained rape, no I don't think that," said Mourdock, according to The Associated Press. "Anyone who would suggest that is just sick and twisted. No, that's not even close to what I said."


http://news.yahoo.com/gop-sen....cs.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 8:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's an excerpt that includes more of his original statement:

Asked whether abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or incest, Mourdock said, "I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God. And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

After the debate, Mourdock tried to clarify his remarks, saying it was "sick" and "bizarre" that his comments would be intrepreted as though he was saying God intended rape. "What I said is God creates life. As I person of faith, I believe that," Mourdock is quoted as saying in The Indianapolis Star. "Does God want people raped? Of course not."


http://www.usatoday.com/story....1653745

Soooo... if God wants life to happen in some good ol' Christian woman*, but she is not having sex because she's not married... well, what choice does God have?

* = Humor me. We all know rape only happens to whores, bitches, sluts, and infidels.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 10:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

These guys are grotesque. Their god is not my God and their religion is not my religion, even though they also call themselves "Christian." "Legitimate rape... God's plan (or) will (or) (gag-a-maggot) God's gift" - it's just disgusting. The idea that the GOP is not engaging in a campaign to subjugate women is laughable.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 10:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't think there is an active GOP campaign, it is merely the foundation of the social conservative belief system.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't suppose any of his loved ones has ever been given such a "gift".
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 11:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Applying Mr Mourdock's conservative Christian logic; the Holocoust & the September 11 attack were "God's will" and we should accept them and be thankful for his gifts.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 11:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Oct. 24 2012, 9:27 am)
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I don't suppose any of his loved ones has ever been given such a "gift".

Bingo.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 11:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(walkngawk @ Oct. 24 2012, 11:43 am)
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Applying Mr Mourdock's conservative Christian logic; the Holocoust & the September 11 attack were "God's will" and we should accept them and be thankful for his gifts.

That would be like Mourdock saying "rape is God's will" and that's not what he said at all.

As usual, you libs can't think past your hatred and so you make something into something it's not.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 12:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well God himself is a rapist.  Just ask Mary.



(a child rapist, actually)
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 1:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No surprise here.  The belief that a zygote is a "human life" is inherently evil (because it leads inevitably to evil conclusions), and when an Akin or a Mourdock says something like this it's just the mask slipping and revealing the true evil beneath the Orwellian happy-talk phrase "pro-life".

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(N2theWild @ Oct. 24 2012, 11:52 am)
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As usual, you libs can't think past your hatred and so you make something into something it's not.

Please educate us.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 1:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 24 2012, 1:03 pm)
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No surprise here.  The belief that a zygote is a "human life" is inherently evil (because it leads inevitably to evil conclusions)

I don't quite follow this thought either...

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 1:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Oct. 24 2012, 10:06 am)
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(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 24 2012, 1:03 pm)
QUOTE
No surprise here.  The belief that a zygote is a "human life" is inherently evil (because it leads inevitably to evil conclusions)

I don't quite follow this thought either...

The only way to judge an idea is by its logical consequences: if an idea leads inevitably to evil results, then it is itself evil.  

If you genuinely believe that a zygote is a "human life", then you are "morally" justified in using any means necessary to prevent abortion (at any stage, for any reason)--whether legally (state intervention to deny women autonomy over their own bodies) or extra-legally (bombing abortion clinics, murdering doctors and staff).

If the belief were purely theoretical, if it had no real-world consequences, it would be merely ridiculous.  It does have consequences, though, and that's what makes it evil.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 1:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 24 2012, 1:36 pm)
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... you are "morally" justified in using any means necessary to prevent abortion (at any stage, for any reason)--whether legally (state intervention to deny women autonomy over their own bodies) or extra-legally (bombing abortion clinics, murdering doctors and staff).

According to who?

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 1:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just another Dick from the extreme end of the debate that has support from the most judgmental, least compassionate and totally hypocritical of the "god is love" cult.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 3:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(N2theWild @ Oct. 24 2012, 10:42 am)
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(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 24 2012, 1:36 pm)
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... you are "morally" justified in using any means necessary to prevent abortion (at any stage, for any reason)--whether legally (state intervention to deny women autonomy over their own bodies) or extra-legally (bombing abortion clinics, murdering doctors and staff).

According to who?

It follows logically from the premise you edited out.  

If you believe a zygote is a "human life", then you believe an abortion is "murder", and you believe abortion in general is "mass murder".  And for someone who believes those things, it's obviously justified (in fact, necessary) for the state to force pregnant women to give birth against their will (to prevent "murder"), and arguably justified for individuals to pursue extra-legal action ranging from blocking clinics to killing doctors and staff (to prevent "mass murder").


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 3:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 24 2012, 1:36 pm)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Oct. 24 2012, 10:06 am)
QUOTE

(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 24 2012, 1:03 pm)
QUOTE
No surprise here.  The belief that a zygote is a "human life" is inherently evil (because it leads inevitably to evil conclusions)

I don't quite follow this thought either...

The only way to judge an idea is by its logical consequences: if an idea leads inevitably to evil results, then it is itself evil.  

If you genuinely believe that a zygote is a "human life", then you are "morally" justified in using any means necessary to prevent abortion (at any stage, for any reason)--whether legally (state intervention to deny women autonomy over their own bodies) or extra-legally (bombing abortion clinics, murdering doctors and staff).

If the belief were purely theoretical, if it had no real-world consequences, it would be merely ridiculous.  It does have consequences, though, and that's what makes it evil.

That's quite a stretch Tom. By that reasoning, eating is evil because serial killers eat*.

There are millions of people who believe a zygote is human life who would never commit or support violence against abortion clinics, doctors, etc.

*ETA - A better example would be that support for the environment is evil due to eco-terrorism.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 3:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I kinda see the point Tom is making.

Sort of like me killing a criminal who is critically attacking a defenseless elderly woman.

Trust me, it's not easy to helplessly watch any murder, especially when people cheer it on.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 3:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Trollin' trollin' trollin', get reactions rollin'...

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 4:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have a girly arm so you're good.

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(GoBlueHiker @ Oct. 24 2012, 3:52 pm)
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Trollin' trollin' trollin', get reactions rollin'...

A troll is a step up from Nazi!  :p


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 4:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm mostly agnostic.  I was raised without any religious affiliation.  I don't have strong feelings one way or the other.  I respect my friends who have strong religious convictions.  I would never try to talk them out of their beliefs and I don't expect any of them to try to "save" me.

I'm also a "card carrying" liberal.  Probably close to being a socialist.

But I understand what Mourdock is saying within the context of his (Christian) religion.  He's saying that, rape, like other tragedies bourne by innocent people, may be inexplicable but are, nevertheless, part of his "God's" design.  I think it's one of the tenets of the Christian religion to accept everything as being God's will.

I don't interpret his comments as saying that rape is justified or that his God wanted it to happen or approves.  I personally agree that, to insist that it be interpretted that way is a political maneuver.

That said, I also believe that he's talking about HIS god, not mine.  It may be the "God" of the majority of Americans but I believe it's my right to believe in a different god or no god, if I choose.

So, while I respect his beliefs and that he should exercise those beliefs for himself and with those who have the same beliefs, I don't think the Constitution gives him the right to expect me to do the same.  Even if I'm in the minority.

And before someone jumps in with the Ten Commandments, I just want to say that you don't have to belive in the Christian God to believe that murder and theft is wrong.  Christianity certainly doesn't have the monopoly on moral beliefs.

For a party that is so big on small government, de-regulation and personal responsibility, I'm surprised it is so vehemently anti-choice.  But, of course, that "choice" is a woman's choice, not a man's...


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 4:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Oct. 24 2012, 4:07 pm)
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But I understand what Mourdock is saying within the context of his (Christian) religion.  He's saying that, rape, like other tragedies bourne by innocent people, may be inexplicable but are, nevertheless, part of his "God's" design.  I think it's one of the tenets of the Christian religion to accept everything as being God's will.

Following that logic, abortions are also God's will.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 4:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Oct. 24 2012, 4:16 pm)
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(TigerFan @ Oct. 24 2012, 4:07 pm)
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But I understand what Mourdock is saying within the context of his (Christian) religion.  He's saying that, rape, like other tragedies bourne by innocent people, may be inexplicable but are, nevertheless, part of his "God's" design.  I think it's one of the tenets of the Christian religion to accept everything as being God's will.

Following that logic, abortions are also God's will.

You're right.  Bad choice of words on my part.  It's really the pregnancy that's God's will.

Note that I'm not agreeing with this reasoning, just saying that I didn't interpret Mourdock's comments the way it's been politicized.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 4:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The pregnancy and the death of the mother?

So why any exception at all? More of that picking and choosing.
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 24 2012, 4:37 pm)
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The pregnancy and the death of the mother?

So why any exception at all? More of that picking and choosing.

Oy.  [rolling eyes]  All I said was that I understood what he meant, and that it wasn't that he believed God wanted someone to be raped.  That's all.

That said, I don't have an issue with his logic.  He simply feels that the only justifiable abortion is when forced to choose one life over the other.  Nothing inconsistent about that.

I'm really not arguing the pro-life stance or what kinds of abortions are "ok".  Personally, until the baby is viable, I think it should be the woman's choice.  Period.  I don't think it's anyone's business but her own what her reasons are, whether it's an "OK" reason or not.


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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Oct. 24 2012, 12:42 pm)
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That's quite a stretch Tom. By that reasoning, eating is evil because serial killers eat*.

*ETA - A better example would be that support for the environment is evil due to eco-terrorism.

I was all set to reply to your original analogy (pointing out that Scott Roeder isn't a murderer who happens to believe abortion is murder; Scott Roeder murdered Dr. Tiller because he believes abortion is murder), but you went and revised your comment.

So, yes, that is a better analogy...but I think it still misses some important distinctions.  A still better analogy might be "animal rights" (which is, in many ways, a mirror image of anti-choice beliefs) and lab bombings.  I would say that an absolutist belief in "animal rights" is evil because it justifies evil acts.  You could tie an absolutist position on the environment to eco-terrorism, but not environmentalistm in general.

Now, a belief that a zygote is a "human life" (in any non-trivial sense of that term) deserving of protection is an absolutist belief.  There's no room for compromise or nuance there.  Abortion, any abortion at any stage for any reason, is murder, period.  

QUOTE
There are millions of people who believe a zygote is human life who would never commit or support violence against abortion clinics, doctors, etc.

Well, there's a pretty sizable grey area there.  The number anti-choicers who actually commit acts of violence is tiny, but as we saw in the Tiller case there is a non-trivial portion of the movement that implicitly or explicitly aids and encourages those few.  

But that's a side issue.  What I was trying to say was that anti-choice terrorism is just the extreme end of a whole continuum of bad behavior.  Only a few people have committed murder in the name of anti-choice beliefs, but hundreds of thousands have engaged in harassment and intimidation.  And I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb if I say that the vast majority of people who believe a zygote is a "human life" are in favor of the state forcing pregnant women to give birth.

And those who don't, or who think there should be exceptions for rape or incest--well, that's hypocrisy, isn't it?  Those are people who hold a belief but are unwilling to embrace its implications.  And to them I would say: if you shrink from the practical realities of your belief, if you recognize that it leads to monstrous ends, you need to abandon that belief.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 5:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Oct. 24 2012, 2:14 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 24 2012, 4:37 pm)
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The pregnancy and the death of the mother?

So why any exception at all? More of that picking and choosing.

Oy.  [rolling eyes]  All I said was that I understood what he meant, and that it wasn't that he believed God wanted someone to be raped.  That's all.

That said, I don't have an issue with his logic.  He simply feels that the only justifiable abortion is when forced to choose one life over the other.  Nothing inconsistent about that.

I'm really not arguing the pro-life stance or what kinds of abortions are "ok".  Personally, until the baby is viable, I think it should be the woman's choice.  Period.  I don't think it's anyone's business but her own what her reasons are, whether it's an "OK" reason or not.

I actually wasn't addressing you I was  extending the concept he had constructed which you mentioned, addressing what appears to be HIS arbitrary selectiveness. He believes it's God's will when a rape results in a pregnancy, and that such will must not be thwarted by an abortion a belief he wants imposed by federal police powers, but is by his statement okay with, via an abortion to medically intervene, thwarting God's will when it comes to thwarting His willful killing of the mother. That strikes me as inconsistent and arbitrary on the part of Mr. Mourdock.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 24 2012, 9:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

I wouldn't vote for Murdoch, don't care for him and hope he loses.

But it has nothing to do with this issue.  He did not say God wants women to be raped.  He said that the children born from rape are part of God's plan.  There is a big difference between the two.  You may not agree, but there is no reason to be offended.
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