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Topic: Libertarianism in Practice< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 9:28 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The current fiasco in South Carolina where every single resident has had their social security numbers stolen by  foreign hackers is an excellent example the libertarian mentality at play. The past two governors did very little other than veto practically every spending bill that came across their desks. They even refused federal aid for schools, rape crisis centers and prisons. The following editorial is worth a read for anyone who think limited government works in the real world.

QUOTE
Hacking is another example of Haley's failure

By now everyone in South Carolina, and the world, for that matter, knows that massive amounts of our personal data — 3.6 million Social Security numbers, 387,000 credit and debit card numbers, and heaven knows what else — are floating around somewhere in cyberspace.

Thanks to Gov. Nikki Haley and the state of South Carolina, all this data is in the hands of overseas hackers — and may well be getting sold off to a Nigerian credit card scammer (or worse) even as you read this.

There is still a lot we don’t know; we are only at the beginning of this data disaster. But there are a few things we know for certain right now, and everyone in the state should be made aware of them. (Full Disclosure: I’ve been in the Internet business since 1996, and currently serve on the board of an Internet data security start-up based in London.)

1.) This was a failure of massive proportions, and there is simply no excuse for it. Regardless of what Gov. Haley and her minions will try to tell you about international hackers and such, the facts are simple — the system was vulnerable, it had been for a long time, and they did not fix it.

2.) There was plenty of warning. According to press reports, the state Department of Motor Vehicles director told lawmakers in February that DMV’s systems were under daily attack by overseas hackers. Yes, February. That’s eight months.

3.) Every South Carolinian just got a sizable tax increase — for life. Gov. Haley proclaims that everyone in the state will be provided with one year of free identity protection. After that, however, we’re on our own. Which means that you and I are going to be paying for additional layers of security out of our own pockets — call it an “incompetence tax” — for the rest of our natural lives.

4.) No one has been fired. Gov. Haley talks tough about slamming someone against the wall; I’d suggest that she start with some of the folks sitting around her cabinet table. If a monumental mistake like this happens and no one loses their job … well, maybe the person at the top should lose hers.

5.) Haley and company are desperately trying to shift the blame and cover up their incompetence. The limited and incomplete information they have given reminds me of the Nixon Watergate cover-up press conferences. They put lots of people up front, let them each say a few words about the situation and then end the press conference after just a few surface questions.

6.) This is an example of all that’s wrong with our broken government and corrupt politics. This disaster is not just a one-time incident caused by some hacker on the other side of the world. It is the result of a corrupt system where contracts are awarded based more on politics than competence. It’s the result of government agencies losing key competent personnel due to budget cuts. And it’s the result of legislators who are more interested in scoring ideological points than attending to their oversight duties.

7.) If we don’t have big change and real reform in state government, it will happen again. Hiring a big consulting firm (at inflated crisis-mode prices) will not keep the problem from happening again. At the moment, we literally don’t even have a formal state technology plan to cover online security. Go to Google and put in “South Carolina technology plan” and see what you get.

8.) HackerGate is a big deal, and it will not end quickly. Millions of people in our state are affected. It is another huge black eye for South Carolina in the eyes of the world (as if we needed another one) and it will have a long-term impact on our state. In the words of Gartner ID theft analyst Avivah Litan, “This is about the worst you can get.”

Gov. Haley is failing the most basic test of competence and leadership. We will all suffer as a result.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article....|p
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 10:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Libertarians are kinda like a roll of generic TP. Seems cool cause you're saving money but then when you use it for the first time you wish you didn't.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 10:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, a GOVERNMENT agency gets hacked and you're blaming LIBERTARIAN ideals? Priceless.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 10:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't hear of many people on the coast of New York and in New Jersy saying they don't want intervention by big governemnt right now.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 10:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:21 am)
QUOTE
So, a GOVERNMENT agency gets hacked and you're blaming LIBERTARIAN ideals? Priceless.

They were hacked due to budget cuts and not wanting to spend the money on security measures. See the connection?
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 10:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Some years ago OR was trying to do something with the state DMV database. Spent several million $ and had a system full of holes with daily failures. Along comes a computer geek who did what the state was trying to but only spent something like $250.

Not everything can be fixed by big government throwing more money at it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 11:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:47 pm)
QUOTE
Some years ago OR was trying to do something with the state DMV database. Spent several million $ and had a system full of holes with daily failures. Along comes a computer geek who did what the state was trying to but only spent something like $250.

Not everything can be fixed by big government throwing more money at it.

I doubt anyone believes that anecdote to be true, 'cept for maybe N2.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 11:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If the Libertarians take control there will be no SSN's.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 11:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Brilliant.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 11:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bateauxdriver @ Nov. 06 2012, 8:49 pm)
QUOTE
If the Libertarians take control there will be no SSN's.

They've got something against nuclear powered submarines?

That's sort of picky. It's Last Resort isn't it?
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 07 2012, 10:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Nov. 06 2012, 9:04 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:47 pm)
QUOTE
Some years ago OR was trying to do something with the state DMV database. Spent several million $ and had a system full of holes with daily failures. Along comes a computer geek who did what the state was trying to but only spent something like $250.

Not everything can be fixed by big government throwing more money at it.

I doubt anyone believes that anecdote to be true, 'cept for maybe N2.

It's not an anecdote. It happened. I'm trying to find a source but it happened some 15 years or so ago and was in the news at the time. My brother also recalls it but he thinks it was $2500.

Others who were in OR at the time should remember it because the state attempted to charge the guy with hacking a gov't database but he didn't. He compiled the info from public sources and people wanted to know why he could do it so cheap when the state couldn't do it for millions.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 07 2012, 10:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There have been a lot of projects which ended up getting overrun by the pace of change in technology.

What is isn't is some sort of proof about the efficiency of government.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 7:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 07 2012, 10:30 pm)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Nov. 06 2012, 9:04 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:47 pm)
QUOTE
Some years ago OR was trying to do something with the state DMV database. Spent several million $ and had a system full of holes with daily failures. Along comes a computer geek who did what the state was trying to but only spent something like $250.

Not everything can be fixed by big government throwing more money at it.

I doubt anyone believes that anecdote to be true, 'cept for maybe N2.

It's not an anecdote. It happened. I'm trying to find a source but it happened some 15 years or so ago and was in the news at the time. My brother also recalls it but he thinks it was $2500.

Others who were in OR at the time should remember it because the state attempted to charge the guy with hacking a gov't database but he didn't. He compiled the info from public sources and people wanted to know why he could do it so cheap when the state couldn't do it for millions.

You might want to look up the definition of anecdote. Afterwards look up the term "anecdotal evidence."
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 7:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 07 2012, 10:30 pm)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Nov. 06 2012, 9:04 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:47 pm)
QUOTE
Some years ago OR was trying to do something with the state DMV database. Spent several million $ and had a system full of holes with daily failures. Along comes a computer geek who did what the state was trying to but only spent something like $250.

Not everything can be fixed by big government throwing more money at it.

I doubt anyone believes that anecdote to be true, 'cept for maybe N2.

It's not an anecdote. It happened. I'm trying to find a source but it happened some 15 years or so ago and was in the news at the time. My brother also recalls it but he thinks it was $2500.

Others who were in OR at the time should remember it because the state attempted to charge the guy with hacking a gov't database but he didn't. He compiled the info from public sources and people wanted to know why he could do it so cheap when the state couldn't do it for millions.

You got it in an email didn't you ;o)
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 7:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You're right as to the definition but as you used it, I interpreted your comment to mean an event that never happened.

The only reference I can find is to the failure of the OR DMV for a project that started in 1993, which could mean there's:
A- a fair chance that the event I recall may be just too obscure for my search terms to find it, which is possible since I readily admit to having crappy Google-fu skills.
OR
B- the news reported an event that didn't actually happen and therefore removed from their database, possible but not too likely given the internet.
OR
C- I'm completely "misremembering"  something that never happened at all, which I think is unlikely since my brother also remembered it without prompting.

However, even if I have specific details incorrect (the amount the guy spent) and can't currently locate a reference, it was reported by the news.

edit: no, it wasn't in an email.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 7:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And BTW, the failure referenced in the OP has nothing to do with Libertarianism. It's the corruption created and continued by The Gang of Two.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 9:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 08 2012, 7:38 am)
QUOTE
And BTW, the failure referenced in the OP has nothing to do with Libertarianism.

Sure it does, because in their world, libertarian = anarchist. Just like all liberals are communists and all conservatives are nazis.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 10:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
I don't hear of many people on the coast of New York and in New Jersy saying they don't want intervention by big governemnt right now.

Um, those aren't really areas known for people able to take care of themselves, so obviously they will look for government to do it for them in the event of a storm, just as they do during normal times.

but even so, one role of government, to most small government types,  is to protect the citizens via security. Disaster relief & recovery would fit into that.

Just don't confuse limited government with no government. That's not what small government types are for.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 10:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:26 am)
QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 06 2012, 10:21 am)
QUOTE
So, a GOVERNMENT agency gets hacked and you're blaming LIBERTARIAN ideals? Priceless.

They were hacked due to budget cuts and not wanting to spend the money on security measures. See the connection?

So all budget cuts are libertarian?

That is your argument?

I'm not sure if you are joking or you are just that misinformed.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 11:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How and when were we convinced that a social security number was somehow necessary or even pertinent to getting a driver's license or registering a car?  I know that it's relatively recent... well, at least from the perspective of my adult lifetime.  I disctinctly remember that it wasn't necessary when I got my driver's license in Michigan in the 70's and when I moved to Massachusetts permanently in the 80's, I know I had the preorgative to decline to provide one.  In those days, your driver's license number *was* your SS# and, even then, I knew that was a bad idea.  I remember annoying the DMV clerk to no end by requesting an alternate number.

So, imo, the use of SS# as the way for government to do the 'big brother' thing is contrary to libertarian practices to begin with.  Whether or not the state adequately maintains that system seems moot, in that sense.  Besides, making a bad decision about where to spend available funds in the face of a budget cut hardly seems like a "liberterian practice" in the first place.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 11:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't have a problem with limiting the scale of government so long as all of society is proportionate. Big government is necessary to balance the issues that arise from a large population employed by huge multi-national corporations. Ecology is pretty fundamental, economics is only a subset with human behavior to make it unpredictable. It is all about the scale of all the components.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 11:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Helping people rebuild in the US after a storm is a good use of government. Having to rebuild a country after destroying it in an unnecessary war is poor use of government.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 11:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 08 2012, 7:38 am)
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And BTW, the failure referenced in the OP has nothing to do with Libertarianism.

It absolutely does.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 11:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Nov. 08 2012, 11:12 am)
QUOTE
How and when were we convinced that a social security number was somehow necessary or even pertinent to getting a driver's license or registering a car?  I know that it's relatively recent... well, at least from the perspective of my adult lifetime.  I disctinctly remember that it wasn't necessary when I got my driver's license in Michigan in the 70's and when I moved to Massachusetts permanently in the 80's, I know I had the preorgative to decline to provide one.  In those days, your driver's license number *was* your SS# and, even then, I knew that was a bad idea.  I remember annoying the DMV clerk to no end by requesting an alternate number.

So, imo, the use of SS# as the way for government to do the 'big brother' thing is contrary to libertarian practices to begin with.  Whether or not the state adequately maintains that system seems moot, in that sense.  Besides, making a bad decision about where to spend available funds in the face of a budget cut hardly seems like a "liberterian practice" in the first place.

In SC you know have to show a long form birth certificate, your social security card, and a student ID to get a learner's permit. That's the kind of important things that the governor has been worrying about, all while allowing every citizen's identity to be stolen. That's what you get from a RINO, aka a Libertarian in GOP clothing.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 12:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Nov. 08 2012, 11:53 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 08 2012, 7:38 am)
QUOTE
And BTW, the failure referenced in the OP has nothing to do with Libertarianism.

It absolutely does.

Saying something is true does not make it true.

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(HighGravity @ Nov. 08 2012, 9:53 am)
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(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 08 2012, 7:38 am)
QUOTE
And BTW, the failure referenced in the OP has nothing to do with Libertarianism.

It absolutely does.

How?

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 1:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's certainly an example of the "starve the beast" approach espoused by many libertarians. Government functions that can't be outright eliminated due to their majority popularity (mine safety regulations for instance) are simply underfunded to the point of ineffectuality. All the fine sounding regulations are on the books and the hard working inspectors run their asses off: but there are, cynically, FAR too few funded in the appropriations budget to effectively perform the service. Then miners die, the fact the mine safety regulations didn't "work" is pointed to as "proof" "big government" is useless, and the march is on.

Bush, no doubt, was actually being honest with his "Heckova job Brownie" comment. Brown had overseen a gutting of FEMA, FEMA then proceeds to "fail" in response to Katrina. "Goal!".
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 2:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Now GW Bush is a libertarian?

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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 08 2012, 11:08 am)
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Now GW Bush is a libertarian?

He certainly "starved the beast" of federal regulatory oversight and cut support for FEMA, a nanny state icon for many of that persuasion.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 2:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 08 2012, 2:08 pm)
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Now GW Bush is a libertarian?

Libertarians believe in limited government.

Gerorge Bush limted government.

Therefor, Geroge Bush is a libertarian.

We call that a logical fallacy.


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