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Topic: When and Why did You give UP on Religion...?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 1:30 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Greetings, BPers...!!!

For the non-believers on the board, when and why did you give up on religion and its associated beliefs?  Was it one event or a series of events that lead you away from religion...???

And old girlfriend, now a real "Jesus freak",  recently took me to the mat on my "non-believer" status.  Ex-girlie was upset and wanted to know how I could not believe in God (or at least her God), with all the time I spent outside and in natural world.  Said girlie was amazed that I was not a believer.

I'm interested in your replies.  THX.

Happy Trails,

RS


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 1:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I grew up on a Presbyterian family, with all of the trappings of middle class, including some Time Life book series and a set of Encyclopedia Britannica in the house.  One of those Time life sets was on the various religions of the time.  As I grew into middle school, I began to read about those other religions and discovered all of them shared the same set of general practices about how to live your life and show others kindness.

That set me on the path of understanding that all religion was similar, and yet each thought they were the correct one and true religion.  As I read more and more history of the damages done in the name of any religion, I began to see it for the crutch it was for the ruling class to prop up the ruled.  When your life is miserable, go to church and see what beauty is in store for you in the afterlife.  I will look up who said it, but the quote pertains :  "Religion is what keeps the downtrodden from killing the rich".  


Religion is What Keeps the Poor from Murdering the Rich

Napoleon Bonaparte...


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 2:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ol-Zeke,

I'm a bit off-topic here, but since you clearly enjoy witty one-liners, here's one that directly relates to your comments:

"It is often said that the Church is a crutch. Of course it's a crutch. What makes you think you don't limp?"

--William Sloane Coffin (one of the giants of liberal Christianity in the US)
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 2:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I grew up in secular family, so my story is different than others. When I was 12 I went to church for the first time, of my own accord. I went with my grandmother before we watched the Packers game on Sunday. I did this for a while and didn't think much of it. As I got older many of my friends  went to bible study, so I decided that I was going to go to that as well.

We were given our reading assignment, however I 've been a pretty fast reader my whole life, so I read far beyond our assignment. Needless to say I had a lot of questions. Questions that the pastor tried to wash over and fast talk his way out of. I didn't buy it, my father always taught me to be a critical thinker. So I got up, walked out, and never looked back.
It was years before I really understood the nature of my non-belief, I tried other religions as I got older, to little sucess. Eventually in my 20s I became finally understood that I didn't believe and I didn't need to believe.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 2:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I gave up on religion back when I first.. just kidding. I haven't given up on religion, specifically Christianity.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 3:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Strangely enough it was church sponsored, religously conservative schools which caused me to reject their irrational and myth based doctrines.  

The refusal by local congregations to provide a tolerant atsmosphere for minority races, homosexuals and multi-cultural values were the things that precipitated a final and total break with organized church institutions.  

Later, much reading and education in science, especially anthropology and history deepened my understanding and rejection of religious intolerance and prejudice.

I attended a Quaker prep school through high school, a fundamentalist sponsored college, and married a fundamentalist preacher's daughter, who was going through the same kind of transformation from believer to non-believer.

Our whole family is now happily and strongly agnostic.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 3:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Probably really started when I was five years old, and just couldn't wrap my head around the concept that was being preached - just didn't click. I kidded myself for another twenty or so years - hoping for a divine revelation to come (being like the rest of my family would have been much simpler). Discovered the simple joy & fullness of the outdoors, and it didn't take long to make a full conversion to this more realistic concept.

God may be out there somewhere, but not in a form that any organized religion would care about. Maybe Star Trek has it close with the 'Q' continuum - something like a powerful life force sitting back and studying what a cocktail of elements 'scattered to the wind' does over time. Makes for more fun than the big bang theory - hell, maybe that is the BBT! :cool:


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 4:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I haven't given up on spiritual growth or on religion, though I don't care much for what people think I ought to believe as a Christian. For example, many don't think I can also be Buddhist. What do they know.

The week before last I went to a large luncheon meeting of Presbyterians (USA) where I live. At the meeting it was reported that we have $30 million of the $45 million needed to build and staff (the first) inpatient hospice in this city. It was Christians who started hospice back in the 1800s (Irish Daughters of Charity), Christians who were pioneers of the modern hospice movement (St. Joseph's and St. Christopher's), and Christians who are still at the forefront of dying with dignity worldwide. And we do other good things as well.

What's up with repeatedly referring to someone that you were in a relationship with as "girlie"?


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 4:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This question is probably ripe for semantic over-interpretation, but I find it very easy to distinguish between religion and individual faith and spirituality. Religion, as described by Wikipedia (as good an arbiter as any, I think), is about the collective. In our western world, I think the collective has largely been usurped by the political and its hierarchy of beliefs, agendas, and socio-political aims.

No thanks to that. I dabbled slightly but never, ever came close to buying in. Membership in affinity groups was never that important to me.

But it is great to have faith (a belief in a higher power of good that guides us while on this earthly plane) and spirituality (a belief in a benevolent destination and after life).

For example, my mother was born in Prussia and grew up in war-torn Germany before moving to the US after marrying my father. She had a very strained relationship with her mother, and her early years were not fun. It just so happened that her mother died when she was on her annual visit back to Germany, which she typically dreaded. They were taking a walk on a beautiful spring day when her mother said some very nice things to her, and then promptly keeled over in a giant bed of flowers.

Now after decades of trauma, my mother's last memory of her mother was a warming one. I credit a higher power for that.

And my mother's last memory before her sudden death was of being comforted by my father, who frankly wasn't always there for emotional support. But she died seeing him as her last memory.

And there have been times climbing in CO where I have only half-jokingly made a prayer to Crom. And they always seem to be answered.

Coincidence? The power of positive thinking? Who cares? The beauty of faith and spirituality is that you own it completely.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 5:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not one single event, but the sentence below really started me to re-think the concept  of a compassionate, caring and loving God:

A nurse said it, a 1-sentence description of the last night of a pre-schooler, the son of a family friend:

"He went out of this world screaming".

It chills me to this day.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 5:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Nov. 08 2012, 2:26 pm)
QUOTE
Ol-Zeke,

I'm a bit off-topic here, but since you clearly enjoy witty one-liners, here's one that directly relates to your comments:

"It is often said that the Church is a crutch. Of course it's a crutch. What makes you think you don't limp?"

--William Sloane Coffin (one of the giants of liberal Christianity in the US)

You could replace the word "church" in that sentence with "liquor" and justify alcoholism just as easily.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 5:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Nov. 08 2012, 5:11 pm)
QUOTE
Not one single event, but the sentence below really started me to re-think the concept  of a compassionate, caring and loving God:

A nurse said it, a 1-sentence description of the last night of a pre-schooler, the son of a family friend:

"He went out of this world screaming".

It chills me to this day.

That would certainly give me pause also.

I think 9/11 hit me in a similar way (in regards to the concept of a compassionate, caring & loving God). That day certainly shut the door on any latent beliefs about God that I may have still held at the time (at least from my Christian upbringing viewpoint).


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 5:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In my 40's (after switching from roman Catholic to Lutheran in my 20's) I was a member of my church's council.  I participated in a bible study program.  The more I studied the more I questioned the inconsistencies and irrational claims.

When I compared my belief in Christianity with my belief in secular matters I found that religion was the only thing I believed in without evidence to support those beliefs.

So I stopped believing in things for which there is no evidence, which brought my belief in supernatural beings and sky daddies to an end.  

I've studied several other religions since then.  Still haven't found any for which there is any evidence.  Just a lot of noise.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 6:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
...wanted to know how I could not believe in God (or at least her God)...
But, this is invariably what people mean when they make such remarks, isn't it? In fact, I'd say it's the universal question on "religious relativity", at least at the most basic levels: "How could you NOT believe in [implied "MY"] God?"

We humans are virtually always self-centered, self-engrossed, and also anthropocentric: in short, we are rarely (or never, in oh-so-many cases) able to "step back" from our self-imposed, artificial, culturally-controlled-and-induced "consciousness" of centrality WRT the rest of the cosmos.

It's almost as if this sort of "self-centeredness" is, in fact, the primary requirement for consciousness of the sort that makes us "human". Or, at least, it seems to be so. I suppose it doesn't help with this "syndrome" (or perhaps that’s the very point of it) that we all start life with our parents repeatedly telling us how unique and wonderful we are, while simultaneously making each new child the center of their lives for years, almost without exception and certainly without a great deal of thought. It just seems like the right thing to do, right? It’s “propagation and assurance of survival of the species” and all that, given the “gift” of consciousness. We want our children to replicate ourselves, even to the point of their conduct, their beliefs and their consciousness. We want a projection into the future, though I suspect strongly that this is not always a conscious drive in many ways, though it’s certainly something everyone thinks about when children are in the offing, isn’t it?

(IMHO, most of what constitutes religion, however transformed in the context of modern society, simply takes the approach of child-rearing to the next step, on to the level of “the community”.

This is, I suspect, a lot easier to understand in terms of a smaller, “prehistorical” human grouping (not to say “primitive”, because all cultures are equally complex, as we learned in Anthropology 101, B. Whorf), and seems, in this context, a more reasonable approach for a tribal community, in order to cultivate “belongingness”, “identity” and “acceptance”, which are very real needs for most humans. Our sense of our “cosmos” grows in relation to this basic orientation.

Most of what constitutes “religion” in a tribal setting is, therefore, a set of rituals and initiations that make you fully, and fully identifiable as, a true member of the tribe and its unique “universe”. Those outside of the tribal group are, of course, by definition, “heathens”.

Those most fully and completely enculturated thusly – even now - seem to fall very low indeed on “cultural sensitivity” scales, and this accounts for that “how can you not believe in God” business that the fully enculturated (and least culturally sensitive, BTW) invariably express in their astonishment at the strangeness of your particular “cosmos” and its “code of conduct” (or total lack of one, in the terms of the outside observer).

The “Bennett scale” is an example of at least one assessment of such “cultural sensitivity” models.
QUOTE
Developmental Model of Intercultural Sensitivity (Bennett Scale)
Organized into six “stages” of increasing sensitivity to difference, the DMIS identifies the underlying cognitive orientations individuals use to understand cultural difference. Each position along the continuum represents increasingly complex perceptual organizations of cultural difference, which in turn allow increasingly sophisticated experiences of other cultures. By identifying the underlying experience of cultural difference, predictions about behavior and attitudes can be made and education can be tailored to facilitate development along the continuum. The first three stages are ethnocentric as one sees his own culture as central to reality. Moving up the scale the individual develops a more and more ethnorelative point of view, meaning that you experience your own culture as in the context to other cultures. At the next stage these ethnocentric views are replaced by ethnorelative views.

Denial of Difference
(*) Individuals experience their own culture as the only “real” one. Other cultures are either not noticed at all or are understood in an undifferentiated, simplistic manner. People at this position are generally uninterested in cultural difference, but when confronted with difference their seemingly benign acceptance may change to aggressive attempts to avoid or eliminate it.

Defense against Difference
(*) One’s own culture is experienced as the most “evolved” or best way to live. This position is characterized by dualistic us/them thinking and frequently accompanied by overt negative stereotyping. People at this position are more openly threatened by cultural difference and more likely to be acting aggressively against it. A variation at this position is seen in reversal where one’s own culture is devalued and another culture is romanticized as superior.

Minimization of Difference
(*) The experience of similarity outweighs the experience of difference. People recognize superficial cultural differences in food, customs, etc.,. but they emphasize human similarity in physical structure, psychological needs, and/or assumed adherence to universal values. People at this position are likely to assume that they are no longer ethnocentric, and they tend to overestimate their tolerance while underestimating the effect (e.g. “privilege”) of their own culture.

Acceptance of Difference
(*) One’s own culture is experienced as one of a number of equally complex worldviews. People at this position accept the existence of culturally different ways of organizing human existence, although they do not necessarily like or agree with every way. They can identify how culture affects a wide range of human experience and they have a framework for organizing observations of cultural difference.

Adaptation to Difference
(*) Individuals are able to expand their own worldviews to accurately understand other cultures and behave in a variety of culturally appropriate ways. Effective use of empathy, or frame of reference shifting, to understand and be understood across cultural boundaries.

Integration of Difference
(*) One’s experience of self is expanded to include the movement in and out of different cultural worldviews. People at this position have a definition of self that is “marginal” (not central) to any particular culture, allowing this individual to shift rather smoothly from one cultural worldview to another.

”Bennett Scale”
AND, ALSO INTERESTING:
"10 Rules That Govern Groups"
A summary of the points:
(*) Groups can arise from almost nothing
(*) Initiation rites improve group evaluations
(*) Groups breed conformity
(*) Learn the ropes or be ostracised
(*) You become your job
(*) Leaders gain trust by conforming
(*) Groups can improve performance...
(*)...but people will loaf
(*) The grapevine is 80% accurate
(*) Groups breed competition (between groups)


Religion is one of the more important ways in which man tribally identified, “locking in” the overwhelming perception of “my village” and “my tribe” as right, proper and, even, “real”. This accounts for a great deal of the attitudes of the “enculturated” members of particular “sects”.
----------------------------------------------
As far as my own religious development goes, it pretty much follows the model of those others here who, participating in organized religion, discovered the telltale signs of human “meddling” with the so-called divine within the documents of religion and the religious structure and practices itself.

Yes, there’s beauty in, and much beauty generated in the name of, religion. But that beauty is not so much “of the divine” as it is of the nature of the human, which is “divine” in its own right, though also “flawed”. I am of the opinion that, without either, the beauty would evaporate.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 10:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't reject the presence of a divine God or universal power.

My problem is with religions that are intolerant of the beliefs or non beliefs of others. I was raised Catholic and have returned to the church multiple times. It's implanted in my brain from birth to think Catholic. I gave my children a Catholic school education. I wanted them raised with a religious basis, because I was. I wanted the religious void in their brains filled with my same implantation of God.
That religious void can be replaced with reason or a blend of religion and reason.

The past election turned me away from what little call I had to return to organized religion.  I've never seen such hatred spewed in the name of god. Post election it has yet to subside. Facebook is filled with the religious calling for the rapture because the president was reelected. I want no part of that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 08 2012, 11:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I never was in any religion. I went to church with a friend a few times as a kid, and with my first wife a couple more times. I just don't get anything out of it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:03 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bateauxdriver @ Nov. 08 2012, 10:47 pm)
QUOTE
I wanted the religious void in their brains filled with my same implantation of God.
That religious void can be replaced with reason or a blend of religion and reason.

Religion and reason are two ends of a very different spectrum.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Kyle's notation on Critical thinking is where I was to.

I was born and raised a Catholic, among other things my Aunt rose to be the Chief Aid of America's first Saint and eventually became Mother Superior of Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament. Although I don't think I ever really believed I accepted the Church until I went away to a low key Episcopal boarding school.

At 14 I was fortunate to have a Theology teacher that wrote the book "First Year Latin" used by millions of students across the country. He was also a master of Ancient Greek, and as we read our King James Bibles he shared his translations from the original Greek texts. It was then I learned our Bibles were never written by anyone that knew Christ and that it was written, edited, censored, and abridged by dozens of men over centuries. What all powerful "God" needs centuries to convey his message? What all powerful God needs to change so much of his dogma so many times?

I have maintained many social practices I learned in the Church, but like others here have implied I could not tolerate the exclusive nature of most organized religions. If it were not for the central, entirely unsubstantiated  arrogance of Christianity that Christ is the only path to salvation I might have stuck around in some capacity beyond the volunteering I still do on occasion.

I think I'm like most of us here; convinced the measure of a man or woman is not grounded in the mythology he or she professes allegiance too but in the nature of his or her real world actions in what as far as any rational mind knows is the only life we have.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Most "reformed believers" I talk to have one of two stories

1. They became disillusioned with a specific church or group of religous people and
    did not continue searching for a better fit

2. Their view of God was more like Santa Claus and so when they did not get what
   they prayed for they decided he must not exist


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(Bateauxdriver @ Nov. 08 2012, 10:47 pm)
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Facebook is filled with the religious calling for the rapture because the president was reelected.

You should seriously consider unfriending those folks :laugh:

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(kyle2193 @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:03 am)
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Religion and reason are two ends of a very different spectrum.

Sorry, but I tend to disagree with this concept.  To truly grow in faith, reason must be there hand-in-hand with it.  

In order to be truly faithful, one must always ask WHY, and continue to seek TRUTH with their whole being.  Certainly not simply taking what any preacher said for gospel truth without any thought attributed to it on our own accord.

It is not God who limits our seeking of the Truth; rather it is the failure of MAN (and as MAN's construct, the various flavors of organized religion) to recognize that God reveals Himself not as a thunderclap, but rather as a whisper.  

We must be willing to listen and to seek, all-the-while remembering that faith and reason go hand-in-hand when seeking the Fullness of Truth.


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"Though I've belted you and flayed you / By the living Gawd that made you / You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din." - Rudyard Kipling
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(rangersven @ Nov. 08 2012, 1:30 pm)
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For the non-believers on the board, when and why did you give up on religion and its associated beliefs?  Was it one event or a series of events that lead you away from religion...???

It's interesting how you've phrased the question because it assumes that everyone started with a religious belief that they "gave up" at some point.  To me, it ties in with those who assume that everybody believes in god or can't understand those who don't.

Not everyone started with any religious beliefs.  I didn't.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I haven't given up on religion and still consider myself a member of the "Christian left" (That really confuses some of my fellow Christians, which frankly, I enjoy doing).  Still, I have a lot of questions regarding faith that no one has adequately answered for me yet.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Nov. 08 2012, 1:44 pm)
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I grew up on a Presbyterian family, with all of the trappings of middle class, including some Time Life book series and a set of Encyclopedia Britannica in the house.  One of those Time life sets was on the various religions of the time.  As I grew into middle school, I began to read about those other religions and discovered all of them shared the same set of general practices about how to live your life and show others kindness.

That set me on the path of understanding that all religion was similar, and yet each thought they were the correct one and true religion.  As I read more and more history of the damages done in the name of any religion, I began to see it for the crutch it was for the ruling class to prop up the ruled.  When your life is miserable, go to church and see what beauty is in store for you in the afterlife.  I will look up who said it, but the quote pertains :  "Religion is what keeps the downtrodden from killing the rich".  


Religion is What Keeps the Poor from Murdering the Rich

Napoleon Bonaparte...

Yes, and the opiate of the people etc. spot on oz!

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Never gave up on it be because I never believed in religion. Went to catholic school for 8 years. It was all very silly to me. I would say whatever floats your boat. But the problem with a lot of religions is how violent and discriminating some are. Plus the whole Noah's arc thing. I mean really?
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:42 am)
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Still, I have a lot of questions regarding faith that on one has adequately answered for me yet.

Good for you, Jer.  To be honest, the Catholic Church alone has been seeking answers to questions for 2 thousand years.  

See my above statement on God speaking to us in whispers.  MAN tends to be too loud with his own voice over the centuries to really hear what God is trying to tell us.  The Gospel is not the "end-all be-all" that some denominations state it to be, but rather the written thoughts of men trying hard to do what you and I, and certainly others, have been trying to do since time immemorial.  Continue the search. There is no finish line short of passing from this world.


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"Though I've belted you and flayed you / By the living Gawd that made you / You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din." - Rudyard Kipling
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 8:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There really is no reason to believe in a god and no evidence to support it.

Wish for it, contemplate the possibility, sure, but belief (consider the definition of belief) no, just makes no sense.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 11:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Grew up in a VERY religious household.  Went to lutheran church EVERY Sunday until I left home after high school.

I honestly never thought much of the religion.  It did not speak to me and I never even thought about it enough to question it to be honest.  It really did nothing for me in the least and I generally just found it quite boring.

Once I went to college I believe I went to church 1 time and realized that I really no longer had to go since my parents were no longer around.

That was the end of it for me.

That was over 20 years ago.

My wife puts it this way.  I am just not a spiritual person in the least.  Like there is a continuum of gay to straight so there is for spirituality.  I am WAY WAY on the end of no spiritualism at all.  I am an agnostic.  I don't believe in any higher power, being, or anything.  But you never know could be something out there.

My wife never had any religion, was raised without religion of any kind.  Went to a few youth groups from churches because of hanging out with kids.  She is very spiritual and is always seeking enlightenment in some form or the other, but she has no desire for any organized religion.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 4:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't think that I ever gave up on religion. I gave up religious "beliefs" 40 years ago. I despise fundamentalists of all persuasions, and any hint of theocratic ambition that they pursue. They are the source of much unhappiness and even violence.

I was raised Lutheran. I have occasion to talk to theologians, religious scholars, and monks. Much of what I know about Buddhism I learned directly from H. H. the Dalai Lama and Rinpoche Arijia. I do believe that there are people of courage, with pure hearts that are working to achieve peace in the world, fight poverty, and assure social justice. I admire them, and from time to time, pitch in with my limited resources and abilities. That is a very different thing then telling  other people how immoral they are and that they will be punished by god.

Shalom.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 10:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

When I was told that Santa Claus doesnt exist.

I figured if a god can create heaven and earth but cant come up with a old fat man in a red suit......


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