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Topic: What should be done about the Red state problem?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 12:56 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't believe a conservative will ever be elected president again. But you still have a majority of states that will always be "red", in turn the house and sometime the senate will stay red. So what happens?

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I like Schwarzenegger's solution: get legislative district boundary drawing out of the hands of the politicians.

That will generate a LOT of purple that's inherently already there, just now overridden by gerrymandering and simplistic things like the electoral college....

That it will bleach a lot of the "blue" out of California is just fairness. People deserve to be repesented honestly.

http://wedrawthelines.ca.gov
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

24 states went blue.  Soon enough, Texas and Florida will be up for grabs, if not blue.  I see this as proof that the Senate will mostly be D controlled for the time being.  The POTUS as well.  

As for the House, there is nothing to be done about it, other than a localized push to redistrict along less political lines and more along boundaries that make more common sense.  It wasn't all that long ago that the Ds controlled the House for decades.  

It is my hope that once PPACA takes hold, more people will see it as a good thing, and that may change some rural folks from R to D.  I doubt it, but I can still hope.  


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(3-gun. @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:56 am)
QUOTE
But you still have a majority of states that will always be "red", in turn the house and sometime the senate will stay red.

I'm not so sure those are safe assumptions.  The House still holds a red majority due largely to the gerrymandering of districts following the 2010 census.  But they still lost seats this past election, and if the demographic evolution of the electorate continues (which it will), even gerrymandering won't stop that.

That's not to say Republicans won't ever hold a majority in the House or Senate down the line.  Surely they will... pendulums swing back and forth.  But like this past campaign, if they refuse to evolve to address the needs of a more diverse voting bloc... the party will evolve or die a gasping death.  Even then it would, of course, be replaced by something else (always is).  But whether the current GOP survives or not depends entirely on their will to evolve (which is ironic, considering some of their top leaders believe "evolution" to be a lie straight from the pits of hell, lol).

Time will tell.


ETA: A Tea-Party leader wants to stop the blame games and claims the 2012 Republican losses were just "a branding problem."  Thinking like that won't fix anything IMO, but obviously various conservatives can make that decision for themselves.  Tea party leader calls for cease-fire


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ban all political parties. Require that all candidates run solely on merit.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates. Candidates become eligible by presenting petitions with signatures totaling 5% of votes cast in the previous election for that office.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How the the house popular vote hold up. Last I saw the Dems were ever so slightly ahead overall. How this translates to a sweeping GOP majority.... still, I'm not going to Trump this too loudly.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:11 am)
QUOTE
Ban all political parties. Require that all candidates run solely on merit.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates. Candidates become eligible by presenting petitions with signatures totaling 5% of votes cast in the previous election for that office.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.

I'd be completely open to that.

Of course, it'd require completely reworking our political system from the ground up, which isn't terribly likely in any plausible scenario, but I assume that's obvious.  Still, it's a thought.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Nov. 09 2012, 1:06 pm)
QUOTE
24 states went blue.  Soon enough, Texas and Florida will be up for grabs, if not blue.  I see this as proof that the Senate will mostly be D controlled for the time being.  The POTUS as well.  

As for the House, there is nothing to be done about it, other than a localized push to redistrict along less political lines and more along boundaries that make more common sense.  It wasn't all that long ago that the Ds controlled the House for decades.  

It is my hope that once PPACA takes hold, more people will see it as a good thing, and that may change some rural folks from R to D.  I doubt it, but I can still hope.  

If you look at county's , you see a lot more red than blue.
And "reeducating"  the rural folk? Too many guns and Bibles for that.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 1:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 1:11 pm)
QUOTE
.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.

SOCIALIST!!!!!!

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 2:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(jcb @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:35 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 1:11 pm)
QUOTE
.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.

SOCIALIST!!!!!!

Ironically, that'd be the official Tea Party reaction, most definitely.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 2:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Tea Party Reaction is essentially the Koch brothers reaction so we can safely say you're correct.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Republican Party cannot continue to exist in its current form. They need to reevaluate and restructure their priorities. When/if they do that, the current electoral college model will change. It has before and will again.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:14 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:11 am)
QUOTE
Ban all political parties. Require that all candidates run solely on merit.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates. Candidates become eligible by presenting petitions with signatures totaling 5% of votes cast in the previous election for that office.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.

I'd be completely open to that.

Of course, it'd require completely reworking our political system from the ground up, which isn't terribly likely in any plausible scenario, but I assume that's obvious.  Still, it's a thought.

The only to save the US is to rebuild the way we elect our leaders because the current system is in freefall. Far too many voters only care about one thing when voting... is there a "D" or an "R" after a candidate's name. Nothing else matters. Of course that would mean a voter would actually have to think for themselves and neither of The Gang of Two will permit that.

Such a system as I posted might actually get a good percentage of the current non-voting population to pay attention and show up with pencil in hand.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(jcb @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:35 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 1:11 pm)
QUOTE
.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.

SOCIALIST!!!!!!

Not really since it pertains only to a specific "activity" and not across the board where everyone pays.

There is a problem though. Only those who actually want a fair campaign with a fair election would support it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(3-gun. @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
If you look at county's , you see a lot more red than blue.
And "reeducating"  the rural folk? Too many guns and Bibles for that.

Counties have no political clout.  People vote, states determine how their Electoral votes are cast.  Counties are just arbitrary lines.  

Of course more counties are red, but since the population centers are blue, and we only count votes cast by people, cities are more important than counties.  This is a map of the counties and the population density.



Oregon is ruled by the I-5 corridor from Portland to Eugene, as that is where the majority of the people live.  Each state has it similarly.  That covers 5-6 counties, out of the 20 something.  As long as we still believe in 1 person, 1 vote, that trend will continue.

Not sure why you put "reeducating" in quotes, since no one else has used the term.  When we finally get a Universal Healthcare program, folks will wonder how it took so long.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(3-gun. @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:25 am)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Nov. 09 2012, 1:06 pm)
QUOTE
24 states went blue.  Soon enough, Texas and Florida will be up for grabs, if not blue. ...  

It is my hope that once PPACA takes hold, more people will see it as a good thing, and that may change some rural folks from R to D.  I doubt it, but I can still hope.  

If you look at county's , you see a lot more red than blue.
And "reeducating"  the rural folk? Too many guns and Bibles for that.

Well we were thinking about airdropping multiple copies of "See Spot Run" and starting from there.  :p

Just kidding.  There are many rural districts but they are sparsely populated as

(1) Corporate agriculture has been displacing small town america for decades - my alma mater was one of those Great Plains universities surrounded by dying towns, excellent lab for land studies.

(2) Since 2005 higher gasoline prices cause more to relocate to cities and the burbs.  More "for sale" signs on rural properties is a trend I've seen.

(3) For about 20 yrs now, some of the part-time rural people I know always mention people trying to live in the sticks full-time but feeling isolated.  They end up selling in a couple years and going to the stucco-encrusted retirement village with a golf cart garage and no pesky kids under 48 allowed.  Probably get's back to my point #1.

Some states have gerrymandering with some weird shaped congressional districts but, thanks to penny-wise/pound-foolish agribusiness,  those days are coming to an end demographically.

Wouldn't worry - San Diego voted red if that's any consolation.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well there's a few of them we could happily return to Mexico (Texas & Arizona for starters)
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 4:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 12:44 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:14 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 11:11 am)
QUOTE
Ban all political parties. Require that all candidates run solely on merit.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates. Candidates become eligible by presenting petitions with signatures totaling 5% of votes cast in the previous election for that office.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.

I'd be completely open to that.

Of course, it'd require completely reworking our political system from the ground up, which isn't terribly likely in any plausible scenario, but I assume that's obvious.  Still, it's a thought.

The only to save the US is to rebuild the way we elect our leaders because the current system is in freefall. Far too many voters only care about one thing when voting... is there a "D" or an "R" after a candidate's name. Nothing else matters. Of course that would mean a voter would actually have to think for themselves and neither of The Gang of Two will permit that.

Such a system as I posted might actually get a good percentage of the current non-voting population to pay attention and show up with pencil in hand.

The enormous number of split ticket wins this past election would argue that simplistic view of the electorate is just that, overly simplistic.

PA: Republican Governor, Democratic party member AG, Senator while the other Senator is Republican, the state house and senate are majority Republican...

Way more than "D" or "R" at play.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 4:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Repealing the 17th amendment would be a good place to start.

Doing so would give the state a say in government and eliminate the ability of the federal governments to mandate it's will upon the states.

This would also restore the power of the 10th amendment back to the states.

The 17th amendment was passed after the civil war and as a result the states no longer have the ability to look after the interest of the state.  

The state has no representation looking after the interest of the state at the federal level.

Oh wait, that would fix the blue issue wouldn't it?


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 5:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(3-gun. @ Nov. 09 2012, 9:56 am)
QUOTE
I don't believe a conservative will ever be elected president again. But you still have a majority of states that will always be "red", in turn the house and sometime the senate will stay red. So what happens?

Good question. Where is William Tecumseh Sherman now that we need him?

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 5:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 1:11 pm)
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Ban all political parties. Require that all candidates run solely on merit.

All political donations go into a pool that is divided equally among all eligible candidates. Candidates become eligible by presenting petitions with signatures totaling 5% of votes cast in the previous election for that office.

All eligible candidates get equal time and news coverage when campaigning.

Very appealing, I especially like the campaign funding portion. Anyone that has watched a season of Survivor knows that in any competitive group, alliances will form and sooner or later you get back to where you effectively have parties again; perhaps a little more shifting in nature with less loyalty and coherence. There will always be social movements based on common values. That is the major failing of the whole idea  of the TEA Party. They fail to understand social coherence and the important role that it has played in human history. The whole idea of a "lone wolf" is an oxymoron.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 5:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"The state has no representation looking after the interest of the state at the federal level."

Did you somehow miss the entire Article One of the United States Constitution?

Here ya go!:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

The 17th? Pesky We The People eh? How dare people of a state elect their federal senators.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 6:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gerrymandering, they both do it.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it backfires.

================

People who voted for Obama did not vote for a Democratic representative (either did  not vote or voted for someone else),
at least that is what happened in Ohio:

QUOTE
Another way to look at this is to compare the total votes cast for each party's congressional candidates. Of the 4,849,628 Ohioans who voted for a Democratic or Republican candidate for Congress in 2012, 2,545,368, or 52.5 percent, voted for a Republican and 2,304,260, or 47.5 percent voted for a Democrat. Apply these percentages to a 16-seat delegation and you get an 8-8 split if the delegation is apportioned according to the popular vote.


He argues for an 8 to 8 split, but if the districts were drawn so that the voters were uniformly distributed, the Ds would have won NO seats, ie the results for all districts would be 52.5 for Rs

Link

Incumbency is probably the other reason, and perhaps more money for the Rs after Citizen United?


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(ol-zeke @ Nov. 09 2012, 3:49 pm)
QUOTE

(3-gun. @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
If you look at county's , you see a lot more red than blue.
And "reeducating"  the rural folk? Too many guns and Bibles for that.

Counties have no political clout.  People vote, states determine how their Electoral votes are cast.  Counties are just arbitrary lines.  

Of course more counties are red, but since the population centers are blue, and we only count votes cast by people, cities are more important than counties.  This is a map of the counties and the population density.



Oregon is ruled by the I-5 corridor from Portland to Eugene, as that is where the majority of the people live.  Each state has it similarly.  That covers 5-6 counties, out of the 20 something.  As long as we still believe in 1 person, 1 vote, that trend will continue.

Not sure why you put "reeducating" in quotes, since no one else has used the term.  When we finally get a Universal Healthcare program, folks will wonder how it took so long.

Cool map, very informative.  The states with the least blue (or none at all) also have the most robust economies.  Go figure.  Maybe it's harder to get by as a bottom feeder in a state where everyone has one degree of separation and if you're a bum you get called on it.  My theory anyway.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Nov. 09 2012, 6:50 pm)
QUOTE
The states with the least blue (or none at all) also have the most robust economies.  Go figure.  Maybe it's harder to get by as a bottom feeder in a state where everyone has one degree of separation and if you're a bum you get called on it.  My theory anyway.

Not sure which states in particular you're referring to,
but if you look here, you'll see that MANY of the red states are actually a drain on the system.
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(hbfa @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:07 pm)
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(justwalkin @ Nov. 09 2012, 6:50 pm)
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The states with the least blue (or none at all) also have the most robust economies.  Go figure.  Maybe it's harder to get by as a bottom feeder in a state where everyone has one degree of separation and if you're a bum you get called on it.  My theory anyway.

Not sure which states in particular you're referring to,
but if you look here, you'll see that MANY of the red states are a drain on the system.

I was referring particularly to Wyoming, and some of it's neighbors.  I was surprised to see that Wyoming only ranked 23r'd in your link (I expected it to be worse).  Your spending/receiving link is famously skewed in favor of states that have little federal land.  A huge chuck of Wyoming is owned by the federal government and administered by the Department of the Interior (National Forest Service, BLM and National Park Service).

Those entities are major employers and spenders in Wyoming and they are foisted upon us.

We'd be in the top five of spenders/receivers if you'd let us administer our own land.  Meanwhile, you're welcome for all of the oil, natural gas, and coal-fired electricity that we send your way.  Need a job?  Come on over.  You have to work though.


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Wyoming ranchers get more federal aid than most state's food stamp recipients.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:39 pm)
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Wyoming ranchers get more federal aid than most state's food stamp recipients.  

Agreed.  They're bums.  Wyoming's economy is dependent on the energy industry, not them.


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ol-zeke Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 10:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh, the same extraction industries that make their living off of Federal land?  Those guys?  Makes all of their employees recipients of milk from the gov't teat.  :)  

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 11:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Nov. 09 2012, 10:59 pm)
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Oh, the same extraction industries that make their living off of Federal land?  Those guys?  Makes all of their employees recipients of milk from the gov't teat.  :)  

Zeke, you know better.  Extraction is extremely difficult and expensive.  The feds and their dependents wouldn't have a clue as to how to make a go of it.  

Fortunately, there are people who know how to get the job done and whose efforts fill the tax coffers, thus supporting said slugs.


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