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Topic: Revenge of the Job Creators, Or, beware of unintended consequences< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:22 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So far, it's anecdotal, too soon to see if this will have a measurable effect on total employment, but from this article and conversations I have had with friends who are small businessmen, it looks like a lot of companies see what is coming with Obamacare, increased taxation, new regulations, and they are hunkering down.
Staff reductions, putting off expansion plans, cutting expenses, making full timers into part timers, etc....
I understand that a lot of people who vote feel like that's the way to "stick it to the man" and stand up for the average guy. Unfortunately, it seems like they have not yet figured out a way to make those they were sticking it to willingly give up their assets without a promise or possibility of return.
I know the folks here will assail the article because of it's origin, and are of the opinion that we SHOULD confiscate the assets of those who run and build businesses. Evil corporations and all that.
But can you blame a company or individual who sees a taxation and regulatory train coming at him for trying to preserve what he and/or his shareholders have?
Anyway, here is the article. Take from it what you will.

Companies planning layoffs due to Obamacare and other policies.

I suppose one silver lining is that as you reduce workers hours to make them part-time to avoid Obamacare penalties, there might be more part-time opportunities, thus increasing the number of jobs.
On second thought, you might see more and more folks working two 28 hour jobs since they can't find one decent paying 40 hour one.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wouldn't you think it would be more prudent for those companies to wait and see if the sky really does fall before reacting as if the sky is falling?

I think it's highly likely that the economy will be better, and thus, the climate for business better, four years from now than it is now. (FWIW, I think that would have been true if Romney had been elected, too.)

Seems awfully arrogant to make business decisions based on ideology-based predictions rather than actual observed trends.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Like corporations (and even some govt branches) haven't been going with more part-timers, automation, and outsourcing for the past 20-30 years?

Some marginal companies will probably go with lower hours, but other employers may get rid of employees doing the minimum just for the medical (i.e. avoiding the pre-existing health conditions), so it will likely be a wash as it's easier for unhappy employees to quit.  Could also mean more small nimble firms based on my understanding of reform (i.e. geeks not held in check by needing a huge corporation for their health care).  

Finally like anything national health will have to be adjusted... time to call Obamacare/ Romneycare / Medicare by a new name, btw.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
to wait and see if the sky really does fall before reacting as if the sky is falling?

Isn't that like waiting for your property to flood before doing anything to prevent it?


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If your profit margins are so slim that your hiring plans are dictated by minor tax and regulatory shifts, you need a new business plan.

This excuse-making and dependency on the government is no different than welfare.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(buzzards @ Nov. 09 2012, 12:22 pm)
QUOTE
So far, it's anecdotal, too soon to see if this will have a measurable effect on total employment, but from this article and conversations I have had with friends who are small businessmen, it looks like a lot of companies see what is coming with Obamacare, increased taxation, new regulations, and they are hunkering down.
Staff reductions, putting off expansion plans, cutting expenses, making full timers into part timers, etc....
I understand that a lot of people who vote feel like that's the way to "stick it to the man" and stand up for the average guy. Unfortunately, it seems like they have not yet figured out a way to make those they were sticking it to willingly give up their assets without a promise or possibility of return.
I know the folks here will assail the article because of it's origin, and are of the opinion that we SHOULD confiscate the assets of those who run and build businesses. Evil corporations and all that.
But can you blame a company or individual who sees a taxation and regulatory train coming at him for trying to preserve what he and/or his shareholders have?
Anyway, here is the article. Take from it what you will.

Companies planning layoffs due to Obamacare and other policies.

I suppose one silver lining is that as you reduce workers hours to make them part-time to avoid Obamacare penalties, there might be more part-time opportunities, thus increasing the number of jobs.
On second thought, you might see more and more folks working two 28 hour jobs since they can't find one decent paying 40 hour one.

Is it a good idea to give in to hostage takers?  Is it wise to negotiate with terrorists?

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 3:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just more whistling in the dark.  If the choice is to expand and make more money, versus refusing to expand because you want to avoid providing needed health care insurance for all your employees, I have every faith that greed for more money will win the day.  

Especially if the business owner is Republican, because the only real value they have is the accumulation of more money.

Whoever chooses to not expand will lose out on the competitive race and other, better small businesses will take their place.  It's the American way.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 4:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The problem as I see it is that regulation, or rather, the cost of complying with government regulation, affects small business to a greater degree than large corporations.  

Corporations will survive and make money and can absorb the cost and pass it along to us, the consumer much easier than a small business.

Small business will suffer, and those evil corporations will benefit because of it IMO.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 4:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Still wrong.  Look around at which businesses have the flexibility and nimbleness to make quick changes as society changes around us.  It is the small businesses run by well motivated individuals, not big corporations.

Providing health insurance is not rocket science and nearly all small businesses will do so with ease.  The ones who can't deserve the Darwinian result, and will be replaced by better alternatives.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 4:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To the OP,
What people say they are going to do and what they actually do are often quite different.  Also, isn't is possible that some conservative business owners may consider such threats or actions as their own way to "stick it to the man"? (i.e. those damned libs).  The topic of the thread even implies such.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 5:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 09 2012, 2:36 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
to wait and see if the sky really does fall before reacting as if the sky is falling?

Isn't that like waiting for your property to flood before doing anything to prevent it?

No, because the fact that your property might flood some day is based on actual empirical data.

The belief that another four years of Obama will be bad for business is simply that: a belief. I'd certainly hope that my employer has more that just ideology before deciding to lay me off.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 5:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Nov. 09 2012, 1:49 pm)
QUOTE
Still wrong.  Look around at which businesses have the flexibility and nimbleness to make quick changes as society changes around us.  It is the small businesses run by well motivated individuals, not big corporations.

Providing health insurance is not rocket science and nearly all small businesses will do so with ease.  The ones who can't deserve the Darwinian result, and will be replaced by better alternatives.

Much my reaction: market forces will out and either a business can compete for good employees or they cannot.... then they get selected OUT.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 5:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(orygawn @ Nov. 09 2012, 3:37 pm)
QUOTE
If your profit margins are so slim that your hiring plans are dictated by minor tax and regulatory shifts, you need a new business plan.

This excuse-making and dependency on the government is no different than welfare.

And the thing is profit margins, for most companies, aren't even slim right now.  Some are well above the profit margins held before the recession.

This is more, sour grapes because my guy wasn't elected, type stuff if you ask me.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 6:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

to the OP,I agree that healthcare is stupid expensive to anybody but a massive corporation like apple or ge etc.That is why we need govt universal healthcare for all so small businesses and working people in general dont have to worry or have their lives endangered by the current hideous system.Every other civilized country has figured it out except us.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 6:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+10

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 7:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's just the fear factor being stoked up again. People have stopped buying the death panel BS.

There are plenty of things within Obamacare to balance this stuff out. All I hear is a bunch of people who likely haven't even looked at it properly whining because they saw something on fox news.

Perhaps if conservatives had entered real negotiations in good faith these concerns could have been alleviated.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 8:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Nov. 09 2012, 4:49 pm)
QUOTE
Still wrong.  Look around at which businesses have the flexibility and nimbleness to make quick changes as society changes around us.  It is the small businesses run by well motivated individuals, not big corporations.

Providing health insurance is not rocket science and nearly all small businesses will do so with ease.  The ones who can't deserve the Darwinian result, and will be replaced by better alternatives.

Have you actually run a business?

Providing health insurance is not a matter of "ease", whatever that means. Nor is it a matter of "motivation", whatever that means.

But you are right about one thing: Providing health insurance to employees is not rocket science. It's cost science. And when annual policy premiums approach $4-5k per employee, you start to face trade-offs of offering meaningful raises, or paying more for the same coverage. Or skipping coverage to invest in new fixed assets.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 8:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hungry Jack @ Nov. 09 2012, 8:02 pm)
QUOTE

(wwwest @ Nov. 09 2012, 4:49 pm)
QUOTE
Still wrong.  Look around at which businesses have the flexibility and nimbleness to make quick changes as society changes around us.  It is the small businesses run by well motivated individuals, not big corporations.

Providing health insurance is not rocket science and nearly all small businesses will do so with ease.  The ones who can't deserve the Darwinian result, and will be replaced by better alternatives.

Have you actually run a business?

Providing health insurance is not a matter of "ease", whatever that means. Nor is it a matter of "motivation", whatever that means.

But you are right about one thing: Providing health insurance to employees is not rocket science. It's cost science. And when annual policy premiums approach $4-5k per employee, you start to face trade-offs of offering meaningful raises, or paying more for the same coverage. Or skipping coverage to invest in new fixed assets.

Depends if you business relies on low-cost labor.

Can you imagine the outcry from the right if we'd ended up with a single payer system.

If you run a small business and don't provide healthcare just what the hell do you expect the people that work for you to do when they get sick?

To be honest I've had enough of the FU society.

For the richest nation on earth to provide its citizens with health care should no come with this degree of whining and excuses.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 09 2012, 9:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And PS: I just can't stand to hear this god**** phrase "Job Creators" one more time.  I'm completely sick of it.

I own a business, and am currently recruiting to hire my 4th employee.

I'm hiring for this position because I have more customers than I have labor.  That is the one and only factor in my decision: if I don't have this labor, I don't keep the new customers, and I don't make more money.  

You can cut my taxes down to zero, and I am NOT going to hire someone just for sh**s and giggles.  

You can cut all my taxes, and give me a $1 million dollar cash reward for being a "Job Creator", and I am NOT going to hire someone just for sh**s and giggles.  I'm going to go spend, save, or invest $1 million dollars.  

RICH PEOPLE ARE NOT JOB CREATORS

CUSTOMERS ARE JOB CREATORS

Get that through your thick skulls, you boneheaded brainwashed rightwing nutjobs
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 4:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Consumer uncertainty has never been especially rational, but business should be smarter than the sheep that they seek to fleece. A lot of that uncertainty is due to political misinformation that was intended to influence votes. I can say with 100% confidence that the future is uncertain, and that there will be money to be made. It's up to you to figure out how.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 11:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(orygawn @ Nov. 09 2012, 9:16 pm)
QUOTE
And PS: I just can't stand to hear this god**** phrase "Job Creators" one more time.  I'm completely sick of it.

I own a business, and am currently recruiting to hire my 4th employee.

I'm hiring for this position because I have more customers than I have labor.  That is the one and only factor in my decision: if I don't have this labor, I don't keep the new customers, and I don't make more money.  

You can cut my taxes down to zero, and I am NOT going to hire someone just for sh**s and giggles.  

You can cut all my taxes, and give me a $1 million dollar cash reward for being a "Job Creator", and I am NOT going to hire someone just for sh**s and giggles.  I'm going to go spend, save, or invest $1 million dollars.  

RICH PEOPLE ARE NOT JOB CREATORS

CUSTOMERS ARE JOB CREATORS

Get that through your thick skulls, you boneheaded brainwashed rightwing nutjobs

Great post.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 11:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Nov. 10 2012, 8:22 am)
QUOTE

(orygawn @ Nov. 09 2012, 9:16 pm)
QUOTE
And PS: I just can't stand to hear this god**** phrase "Job Creators" one more time.  I'm completely sick of it.

I own a business, and am currently recruiting to hire my 4th employee.

I'm hiring for this position because I have more customers than I have labor.  That is the one and only factor in my decision: if I don't have this labor, I don't keep the new customers, and I don't make more money.  

You can cut my taxes down to zero, and I am NOT going to hire someone just for sh**s and giggles.  

You can cut all my taxes, and give me a $1 million dollar cash reward for being a "Job Creator", and I am NOT going to hire someone just for sh**s and giggles.  I'm going to go spend, save, or invest $1 million dollars.  

RICH PEOPLE ARE NOT JOB CREATORS

CUSTOMERS ARE JOB CREATORS

Get that through your thick skulls, you boneheaded brainwashed rightwing nutjobs

Great post.

+1

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(orygawn @ Nov. 09 2012, 6:16 pm)
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RICH PEOPLE ARE NOT JOB CREATORS

CUSTOMERS ARE JOB CREATORS

You mean a healthy middle class, with money to spend, could actually create jobs?

What a concept!
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(cweston @ Nov. 09 2012, 3:25 pm)
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Wouldn't you think it would be more prudent for those companies to wait and see if the sky really does fall before reacting as if the sky is falling?

I think it's highly likely that the economy will be better, and thus, the climate for business better, four years from now than it is now. (FWIW, I think that would have been true if Romney had been elected, too.)

Seems awfully arrogant to make business decisions based on ideology-based predictions rather than actual observed trends.

actually, they have both a leagal and a feduciary responsibility to act in the best interest of their shareholders

And we actually have almost 4 years of actual observed trends :laugh:


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(hbfa @ Nov. 10 2012, 12:49 pm)
QUOTE

(orygawn @ Nov. 09 2012, 6:16 pm)
QUOTE
RICH PEOPLE ARE NOT JOB CREATORS

CUSTOMERS ARE JOB CREATORS

You mean a healthy middle class, with money to spend, could actually create jobs?

What a concept!

Imagine that. A government doing things to help the middle class.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 4:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
RICH PEOPLE ARE NOT JOB CREATORS

CUSTOMERS ARE JOB CREATORS
I'm trying to find a way to fit this on a bumper sticker...
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 4:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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leagal [sic] and a feduciary [sic] responsibility
Oh, yeah...
I guess the Babs is attempting to make a subtle pun on "fed" here, but it's clear that he has never had any faith or trust in the Democrats (or Obama) in any discernible way, so he "missed the connection". :)

Too much right wing conspiracy fiction can warp your little mind, dude.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 10 2012, 6:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Kind of tough to get customers who don't have a job because the government over taxed the people/companies that would normally provide jobs.

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(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 10 2012, 3:20 pm)
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Kind of tough to get customers who don't have a job because the government over taxed the people/companies that would normally provide jobs.

When effective tax rates are at lows not seen since the Eisenhower administration that's way too absurd to really sell. Hence 332 v 206.

"In recent decades, corporate tax revenue has plunged, falling from about 6 percent of gross domestic product in the 1950&#8242;s to less than 2 percent today, due to a proliferation of corporate tax breaks and the use of offshore tax havens. According to the Congressional Budget Office, in fact, corporate tax receipts as a share of corporate profits have hit their lowest point in 40 years:"
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