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HighGravity 
Group: Members
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 9:13 pm |
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They don't want to take their country back. They just want to leave it behind.
As the dust settles in the wake of President Obama's decisive reelection last Tuesday, the White House petition website has been flooded by a series of secession requests, with malcontents from New Jersey to North Dakota submitting petitions to allow their states to withdraw from the union.
Most of the petitions submitted thus far have come from solidly conservative states, including most of the Deep South and reliably separatist Texas. But a handful come from the heart of blue America - relatively progressive enclaves like Oregon and New York.
All told, petitions have been filed on behalf of 20 states: Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-25....m-union
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TehipiteTom
Group: Members
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 9:19 pm |
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I think there's a bit of nutpicking in this, and there's really less there than meets the eye.
Which is not to say there hasn't been some spectacular derangement among a broad swath of Romney supporters Obama haters. They spent 4+ years convincing themselves that the President was a Gay Kenyan Socialist Islamist usurper who was coming to take away their guns and light bulbs, so it's no wonder they're wailing and gnashing their teeth in apocalyptic terms right now.
But the secession thing? Just blowing off steam, I think.
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"If ricin is outlawed, only outlaws will mail letters with ricin."--National Ricin Association
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| Post Number: 3
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HighGravity
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 9:27 pm |
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North Carolina already has 10,000 signers.
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| Post Number: 4
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HighGravity
Group: Members
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 9:28 pm |
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Texas has already surpassed the required threshold at 38,747 and growing. Louisiana was nearing the threshold at 20,047 Monday.
Nationwide, the petitions had 228,644 signatures Monday evening.
Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012....ink=cpy
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
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Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 10:11 pm |
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Sure hope they all used their real name and address.
Nice to know who FEMA can ignore eh?
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
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Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 10:21 pm |
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Why shouldn't a state be allowed to secede? Put it on a statewide ballot and let the state residents decide.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 10:30 pm |
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California would sure save a ton of money if more of the red state losers were cut loose.
But I'm thinking we go the Liberia route: I hear nobody is really using Somalia right about now. Send them off with a bag of seeds and a canceled US passport.
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| Post Number: 8
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HighGravity
Group: Members
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Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 10:41 pm |
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This is another reason why states need to be abolished. It's a completely antiquated notion.
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| Post Number: 9
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TehipiteTom
Group: Members
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 10:51 pm |
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(HighGravity @ Nov. 12 2012, 6:28 pm)
QUOTE Texas has already surpassed the required threshold at 38,747 and growing. Louisiana was nearing the threshold at 20,047 Monday.
Nationwide, the petitions had 228,644 signatures Monday evening.Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012....ink=cpy
Well, take Texas: 38,747 out of 4.5 million Romney voters. It sounds like a lot of people in raw numbers, but as a percentage of the greater population it's tiny.
I think there's a real question, worth continuing coverage, of how or whether the folks who think the President of the United States also happens to be the Antichrist come to terms with the fact that he's actually fairly popular. Maybe they'll pull back; maybe they'll go further off the deep end; probably some of both.
But I don't think the secession petitions are a particularly reliable indicator of which way that's going to go.
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"If ricin is outlawed, only outlaws will mail letters with ricin."--National Ricin Association
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| Post Number: 10
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kyle2193
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 10:51 pm |
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228k signatures is right around 0.07% of the population.
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If I cannot swear in heaven I shall not stay there.
-Mark Twain
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39802
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 11:12 pm |
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228k?
Maybe 500 C5A flights. Cheap solution.
#PackLightBitches
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| Post Number: 13
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hbfa
Group: Members
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 11:49 pm |
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Only 7 of those 20 states are capable of paying their own way as it stands today.
How do expect to suddenly go their own way and make it work?
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| Post Number: 14
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hbfa
Group: Members
Posts: 7238
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 11:52 pm |
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Perhaps it's the word "United"
It just sounds too socialist
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| Post Number: 16
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gunslinger
Group: Members
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Joined: Mar. 2007
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Posted on: Nov. 12 2012, 11:56 pm |
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(TehipiteTom @ Nov. 12 2012, 10:52 pm)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 12 2012, 7:21 pm)
QUOTE Why shouldn't a state be allowed to secede? Put it on a statewide ballot and let the state residents decide. There was a war. It settled that question. Deal with it.
Yea, that's already been tried....didn't work out to well....
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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| Post Number: 17
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HighGravity
Group: Members
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Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 12:03 am |
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(Lamebeaver @ Nov. 12 2012, 11:52 pm)
QUOTE
(HighGravity @ Nov. 12 2012, 8:41 pm)
QUOTE This is another reason why states need to be abolished. It's a completely antiquated notion. Yeah, and while we're at it, let's get rid of that pesky constitution. It's too hard to ratify an ammendment. Let's just go with popular (mob rules) vote on everything.
Excellent use of reductio ad absurdum. You should take that act on the road. Maybe get Kyle to open for you.
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| Post Number: 18
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HighGravity
Group: Members
Posts: 2379
Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 12:05 am |
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(gunslinger @ Nov. 12 2012, 11:56 pm)
QUOTE
(TehipiteTom @ Nov. 12 2012, 10:52 pm)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 12 2012, 7:21 pm)
QUOTE Why shouldn't a state be allowed to secede? Put it on a statewide ballot and let the state residents decide. There was a war. It settled that question. Deal with it. Yea, that's already been tried....didn't work out to well....
It didn't? In what way? The abolishment of slavery? The 14th Amendment?
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| Post Number: 19
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 12:10 am |
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I expect that's a reference to the secessionists getting their ass handed to them.
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| Post Number: 20
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HighGravity
Group: Members
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Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 12:12 am |
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Given the poster, I suspect it's not.
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Raznation
Why surf when you can make waves!
Group: Members
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 7:44 am |
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Mexico......take Texas back......please!
LoL
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| Post Number: 22
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
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Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 8:22 am |
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(TehipiteTom @ Nov. 12 2012, 8:52 pm)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 12 2012, 7:21 pm)
QUOTE Why shouldn't a state be allowed to secede? Put it on a statewide ballot and let the state residents decide. There was a war. It settled that question. Deal with it.
I asked WHY it's not permitted. A war didn't settle anything except that it's not.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 23
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gunslinger
Group: Members
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Joined: Mar. 2007
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 8:24 am |
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(HighGravity @ Nov. 13 2012, 12:05 am)
QUOTE
(gunslinger @ Nov. 12 2012, 11:56 pm)
QUOTE
(TehipiteTom @ Nov. 12 2012, 10:52 pm)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 12 2012, 7:21 pm)
QUOTE Why shouldn't a state be allowed to secede? Put it on a statewide ballot and let the state residents decide. There was a war. It settled that question. Deal with it. Yea, that's already been tried....didn't work out to well.... It didn't? In what way? The abolishment of slavery? The 14th Amendment?
How about the tremendous loss of life?
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For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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Ecocentric
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 10:19 am |
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Nah, individuals just need to work at being better people. The whiners are losers, that's bound to happen (whining and losing) but losing with a little grace is part of what democracy is all about.
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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| Post Number: 26
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Hungry Jack
Group: Members
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 10:33 am |
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(Ecocentric @ Nov. 13 2012, 10:19 am)
QUOTE Nah, individuals just need to work at being better people. The whiners are losers, that's bound to happen (whining and losing) but losing (and winning) with a little grace is part of what democracy is all about.
Better people and better citizens.
The most powerful form of government is when individuals get involved to improve their local community: schools, businesses, public spaces, safety, etc.
As a 20-year dweller in an intensely urban area (Chicago's East Lakeview neighborhood), I am dismayed by how little people get involved or do things to help out. It takes so little initiative to leave your community a slightly better place.
One day a few years ago I decided to trim low branches over the sidewalks on our (blissfully) leafy street (I am trained in this). A few neighbors were thankful. A few accused me of breaking the law. A few thought I was crazy. But the overriding sentiment was "wow, somebody is out working on our street, and he's not employed by the City"
For as long as I live, I will never understand or accept the lack of civic engagement. And I'm not altruist, as I do these things because I want my community to be safe, attractive, and clean. I just refuse to wait around for the "government" to do the little things that citizens so easily can do.
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| Post Number: 27
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Ecocentric
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 10:38 am |
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(Hungry Jack @ Nov. 13 2012, 10:33 am)
QUOTE
(Ecocentric @ Nov. 13 2012, 10:19 am)
QUOTE Nah, individuals just need to work at being better people. The whiners are losers, that's bound to happen (whining and losing) but losing (and winning) with a little grace is part of what democracy is all about. Better people and better citizens. The most powerful form of government is when individuals get involved to improve their local community: schools, businesses, public spaces, safety, etc. As a 20-year dweller in an intensely urban area (Chicago's East Lakeview neighborhood), I am dismayed by how little people get involved or do things to help out. It takes so little initiative to leave your community a slightly better place. One day a few years ago I decided to trim low branches over the sidewalks on our (blissfully) leafy street (I am trained in this). A few neighbors were thankful. A few accused me of breaking the law. A few thought I was crazy. But the overriding sentiment was "wow, somebody is out working on our street, and he's not employed by the City" For as long as I live, I will never understand or accept the lack of civic engagement. And I'm not altruist, as I do these things because I want my community to be safe, attractive, and clean. I just refuse to wait around for the "government" to do the little things that citizens so easily can do.
+1
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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| Post Number: 28
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HighGravity
Group: Members
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Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 12:01 pm |
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(Hungry Jack @ Nov. 13 2012, 8:41 am)
QUOTE
(HighGravity @ Nov. 12 2012, 10:41 pm)
QUOTE This is another reason why states need to be abolished. It's a completely antiquated notion. Why stop at states? Let's go after counties and cities too! We will all be one big happy family! In fact, we should abolish individuals, or at least individualism. We can all work for the same company, get paid the same, wear the same clothes, drive the same cars, and eat the same porridge.
Why take it to an illogical slippery slop argument instead of commenting on what I actually said? How are they the equivalent? The fact that we have county and city governments, run by locals is all the more reason that state borders are unnecessary in our age.
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Hungry Jack
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 1:47 pm |
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(HighGravity @ Nov. 13 2012, 12:01 pm)
QUOTE
(Hungry Jack @ Nov. 13 2012, 8:41 am)
QUOTE
(HighGravity @ Nov. 12 2012, 10:41 pm)
QUOTE This is another reason why states need to be abolished. It's a completely antiquated notion. Why stop at states? Let's go after counties and cities too! We will all be one big happy family! In fact, we should abolish individuals, or at least individualism. We can all work for the same company, get paid the same, wear the same clothes, drive the same cars, and eat the same porridge. Why take it to an illogical slippery slop argument instead of commenting on what I actually said? How are they the equivalent? The fact that we have county and city governments, run by locals is all the more reason that state borders are unnecessary in our age.
So if California wants (foolishly) to build a high speed rail system linking the Bay Area to LA metro via the Central Valley, federal tax money should finance it?
What if farmers in Illinois or Iowa want to improve railroads to more efficiently ship their grain to market?
What if the cities of Austin, San Antonio, and many surrounding communities are very concerned about water supplies and want to invest in infrastructure to improve collection and storage in central Texas' major drainages?
What if people in Massachusetts decide they don't like the state income tax and want to move to neighboring New Hampshire?
Some activities of government are very scalable and belong at the federal level: defense and national security, air and water environmental protection, legal protection are just a few examples. But states have a pivotal role in serving large areas where collective interests are very well defined, but are not significant priorities at a national level.
Cripes, this country was founded as a loose confederation of states. ALL of the world's most advanced nations have states for administrative and governmental purposes (in your beloved France, they are known as departements). Saying that states should be abolished because a handful are barking about secession is absurd. It's cutting off your head to spite your body.
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| Post Number: 30
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Nov. 13 2012, 1:59 pm |
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"this country was founded as a loose confederation of states."
Yes, then that loose confederation was rapidly and enthusiastically dumped in the waste bin of "great idea on paper but.." as The Founders ripped up the Articles of Confederation and never looked back as they proceeded to write up the far tighter construct of the Constitution of the United States.
So: Been there, done that, Founders had a better idea right quick.
That's not to say I don't value states as a regional level of decision making that is a lot better suited to a nation as large and diverse as ours to deal with a great proportion of our challenges. But transportation is a blurry one: relying on each individual state to construct it's fraction of the transcontinental railroads or the interstate would have been a very long wait and the difference between an enhancement of a purely local economic facet and the nation is a hard one to parse. A rising tide in California will surely lift boats across the nation.
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