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Topic: The Confederacy of Takers< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 15 2012, 7:39 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinion....ry.html

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 16 2012, 7:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think this is one of the rare times we probably both agree......the idea of secession is pretty ridiculous.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 16 2012, 9:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You didn't get the point of the article

Milbank was making fun of the idea of secession to expose the hypocrisy of you red staters on the issue of
who takes and who gives


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 17 2012, 8:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think there are some blue states in the top 10 takers....

Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Mexico and Virginia.....

http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/cffr-08.pdf

It's also my understanding that the petition is now in all 50 states.

This is symbolic of the frustration many have with the federal government and spending IMO.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 17 2012, 1:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No Connecticut and Massachusetts are NOT among the top ten takers. In fact they are among the
top 10 givers(what was the purpose of posting that link when it doesn't appear to support
your assertion or you at least didn't indicate where it does. Here is a hint. I provided
a link to support mine and here is another one in which that link used to support it)

Oh and New Mexico and Virgina are more purple states than blue although New Mexico probably
leans blue and Virgina is headed that way.

Beyond that you still don't get the point

Its you red staters that like to proclaim you're not the moochers and takers

But look what we see when check the facts of who actually are the takers and its more likely
you red staters


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 17 2012, 1:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Then this part deserves its own post to respond to

Gunsligner says
"This is symbolic of the frustration many have with the federal government and spending IMO."

No its not. Its symbolic of stupidity of people and the level they have been brainwashed,
indoctrinated and programmed. The guy from Alabama ,who had that topless carwash who started
a petition to succeed from the US, is a perfect example. He was put out of business by the
state of Alabama but then blames the federal government


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 17 2012, 8:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Nov. 17 2012, 1:05 pm)
QUOTE
No Connecticut and Massachusetts are NOT among the top ten takers. In fact they are among the
top 10 givers(what was the purpose of posting that link when it doesn't appear to support
your assertion or you at least didn't indicate where it does. Here is a hint. I provided
a link to support mine and here is another one in which that link used to support it)

Oh and New Mexico and Virgina are more purple states than blue although New Mexico probably
leans blue and Virgina is headed that way.

Beyond that you still don't get the point

Its you red staters that like to proclaim you're not the moochers and takers

But look what we see when check the facts of who actually are the takers and its more likely
you red staters

See figure 5 on xxii...

Yes, Mass and Connecticut both are in the top ten takers.....


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 17 2012, 9:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

CN and MA are in the top ten, coming in at 9 and 10 despite the fact that they have higher populations than most of the others on the list.

VA and NM are not hardcore blue states by any means.  They are swing states in the past 4 elections.  So in reality, six of the top ten are red, 2 are blue and 2 are bisexual . . . errrr . . . bipolitical.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 17 2012, 9:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

7 of the next 10 are red . . . looks like the reason why red staters have the view that there's too much govt money being given away is because they're seeing more of those dollars.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 17 2012, 9:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gunslinger(and I guess n_granola)

No Massachusetts &  Connecticut  aren't in the top 10

You were operating on straight spending without considering taxation. If you would have read my links or read it
with better comprehension you would have seen my links, unlike yours, used the much more substantive method of
looking at how much a state not only gets from the federal government in terms of spending but how much it contributes
to the federal government in terms of taxes by using spending to tax ratio

Now I think I didn't link the link correctly in my last post so here it is

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/sr139.pdf

Although in the OP(the Washington Post OP/Ed by Milbank) it does link to the above link and Milbank explains the
ratio in his op/ed anyway so there isn't much excuse not to understand why Massachusetts &  Connecticut aren't in
the top 10

So looking at Figure 1 for ratios of spending to Tax

Mass has a ratio of $.77 (For every dollar they are taxed they get 77 cents
from the federal government) which is in the top 10 LOWEST

Connecticut has even a lower ratio at $.66(2nd lowest in the Nation)

So once again Massachusetts & Connecticut aren't in the top 10 takers

In fact they are in the bottom 10 of taking.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 18 2012, 8:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Believe which ever one suits you Dennis.....

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 18 2012, 9:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The math doesn't require belief!

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 18 2012, 10:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Slinger,

WTF? You do understand what per-capita means, right? Why don't you have the decency to admit you made a mistake?


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 18 2012, 11:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Nov. 18 2012, 8:55 am)
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Believe which ever one suits you Dennis.....

You make it sound like he's the one ignoring the facts. Clever trick.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 18 2012, 1:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Nov. 18 2012, 8:55 am)
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Believe which ever one suits you Dennis.....

^^ willful ignorance at its finest


You should ask that question of yourself

but I know you will not


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 18 2012, 1:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Nov. 18 2012, 10:51 am)
QUOTE
Slinger,

WTF? You do understand what per-capita means, right? Why don't you have the decency to admit you made a mistake?

If you slinger would have to admit he was wrong he would have to admit he was wrong in just
about every damn post he has posted on


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 18 2012, 1:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Nov. 18 2012, 11:18 am)
QUOTE

(gunslinger @ Nov. 18 2012, 8:55 am)
QUOTE
Believe which ever one suits you Dennis.....

You make it sound like he's the one ignoring the facts. Clever trick.

Slinger Clever? I don't think so. Not slinger. No way.

What he did is called projection which is a standard right-wing Republican tactic


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 10:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

God I tire of this crap.  Paint by numbers.  Keep it inside the lines, ignore the fact that a Red State is half Blue and a Blue State is half Red.  

Come on.  That's so way too half-assed for me.  I can't be the only one.

This is what I know really, I who favor a more sophisticated palette, I who tends toward intolerance of those who can't even envision a simple magenta:  Our nation, a collection of tribes and longhouses, will be better served when we muster the guts to give our kids, each and every one, at least some appreciation of art - the art of appreciation, the art of understanding, the art of mortality -and so provide to them, bequeath them if you will, the means to liberate themselves from our own stupidities.

Red and Blue.  Morons think more acutely than this.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 11:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

First of all states that have roughly an equal balance of Republicans and Democrats are
usually called Purple so were aren't talking about those states

We are talking about states like Alabama,Oklahoma or Mississippi. Those states are without a
doubt red overall which doesn't mean there aren't at least some Democrats.  In 2008 I don't think
there was a single district that went for Obama in Oklahoma

To pretend that all regions of the US are politically and culturally on the same wave length
is what is stupid.

But the point of the OP was to highlight the irony and hypocrisy of right-wing Republicans
who assert that Democrats, liberal, etc... are the party of moochers when the states that
vote Republican in the highest percentages typically are more dependent on the federal
government than those states that vote Democrat


I mean wasn't that point that was laid in the link in the OP obvious?

I guess for some people it wasn't


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 12:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Nov. 16 2012, 6:52 pm)
QUOTE
You didn't get the point of the article

Milbank was making fun of the idea of secession to expose the hypocrisy of you red staters on the issue of
who takes and who gives

Plenty of blues are takers too.  Yet another tiresome episode of the pot calling the kettle black...

Sometimes, I wonder about these incessant cross-aisle accusations.  Yeah, what thinking individual really believes that our trillion-dollar deficits are the results of just the reds or just the blues?  As a nation, we are takers collectively.   But like the spoiled brats that we are, when staring at the so-called fiscal cliff, it's just a lot easier pointer fingers than solving problems.  And that, both sides do plenty well, which explains the continued impasse.  ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 12:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Once again it isn't the liberal Democrats in blue states that the Republican base is made
up of 47% of moochers. The narrative was that 47% of Democrats were moochers and that
narrative was promulgated by Republicans about Democrats(not the other way around). So again,
once again, the issue here is the hypocrisy and irony of Republicans who time and time again
make it an article of faith that liberal Democrats are made up of mostly moochers but yet we
actually look into the facts the opposite is true.

So when Milbank writes an article about how the fact that so many red states rely on
federal goverment more than blue states, that underlying point didn't come out of no
where. Pointing out that there are some blue states that are takers wouldn't have anything to
do with the point of hypocrisy since the hypocrites here aren't the liberal democrats
but the conservative Republicans who time and time again use the "47%", moocher narrative.
Liberal Democrats will only make the charge about Red states after and in response
to right-wing Republicans making the charge first that Democrats voters are essentially
moochers to expose the hypocrisy of right-wing Republican using that narrative.

Seems very clear to me.

You can't use a narrative when the narrative describes your side even more


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 12:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think of it like car insurance, or any insurance for that matter.  All of us pay into the fund, and those that need it get help.  I do not really care that several rural states, that seem to always vote Republican, get more than they pay in.  I do not think any of us are against helping them. It is just tiring to hear those same people also complaining about the "welfare mom" or some other form of poverty fallacy.  Just because people like to see themselves as a "rugged individualist" doesn't mean they are not beneficiaries of the very system they are bemoaning.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 1:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Nov. 23 2012, 12:59 pm)
QUOTE
I think of it like car insurance, or any insurance for that matter.  All of us pay into the fund, and those that need it get help.  I do not really care that several rural states, that seem to always vote Republican, get more than they pay in.  I do not think any of us are against helping them. It is just tiring to hear those same people also complaining about the "welfare mom" or some other form of poverty fallacy.  Just because people like to see themselves as a "rugged individualist" doesn't mean they are not beneficiaries of the very system they are bemoaning.
 

^^ Zeke gets the obvious point(italics and bolded by me for important points emphasized


Why do people have a hard time understanding this point obvious point?


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(Dennis The Menace @ Nov. 23 2012, 9:37 am)
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Once again it isn't the liberal Democrats... You can't use a narrative when the narrative describes your side even more

Dennis:

I am assuming your post is a response to mine.

I don't have a side -- simply (and sadly) because I see plenty of faults in both sides (meaning in ALL of us collectively).

So it all goes back to the last line in my post above.  All this finger-pointing is patently unhelpful -- and a non-starter.  But yeah, you (and others) keep doing it because it gives you a rush that someone is worse than you (maybe).  Doesn't solve our nation's many protracted problems one iota.  Worse, it gets pretty much everyone on the defensive.  Spoiled brats that we are.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 1:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Nov. 23 2012, 1:29 pm)
QUOTE

(Dennis The Menace @ Nov. 23 2012, 9:37 am)
QUOTE
Once again it isn't the liberal Democrats... You can't use a narrative when the narrative describes your side even more

Dennis:

I am assuming your post is a response to mine.

I don't have a side -- simply (and sadly) because I see plenty of faults in both sides (meaning in ALL of us collectively).

So it all goes back to the last line in my post above.  All this finger-pointing is patently unhelpful -- and a non-starter.  But yeah, you (and others) keep doing it because it gives you a rush that someone is worse than you (maybe).  Doesn't solve our nation's many protracted problems one iota.  Worse, it gets pretty much everyone on the defensive.  Spoiled brats that we are.

Actually part of the problem in our nation is that large segments of our society don't want
to debate the real issues and would rather deal with false narratives.

So until those false narratives are thrown away and those who rely on those false narratives
begin to deal with reality instead, pointing out those false narratives is important and one
of the most absurd is the finger pointing at Democrats that are essentially a bunch of moochers.

I mean the presidential nominee of the Republican party used that narrative in a video and
then afterwards as an explanation after he lost.

We had the most popular right-wing talk show host(most popular radio talk show host in the
country right-wing or not) say Romney was correct for saying his comment on the 47%

It is a very very common narrative among Republicans and the right-win in general that
Democrats are essentially a bunch of moochers.

Its very very relevant and important that people poke hole through those narratives and
poking holes through those narratives is very much a part of solving our nations problems
because if people see things through the prism of those narratives then they will see our
nations problems through those same prisms.

For example issues that deal with funding of the safety net is directly related to how voters
feel about funding the safety net(SS, medicare, medicaid, etc). If people think that the
safety net is being exploited by moochers who don't need it then they will complain to their
representatives and the representatives will be more inclined to cut those safety net
programs(or worse like eliminate them although unlikely to go that extreme).

Therefore the false impression about how many moochers there are in America and so on is very
much related to our nations problems.

You can't fix our nations problems when society is ignorant and exposing hypocrisy I think is
a very effective way of combating ignorance


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 2:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The problem between us is that I see moochers pretty much everywhere.  It's why we have mutli-trillion-dollars budget deficit.

It's like this:  the Titanic is sinking.  You (and others) are only interested in sorting out blame before doing anything else (your way of 'understanding the problem').  I agree with you that we need to understand the problem.  In this case, however, finger pointing has been going on for years -- and our ship of state is sinking all the while.  In an emergency -- physical or fiscal or whatever type -- sometimes you need to treat the immediate symptoms -- and after that -- spend quality time studying the causes.

Or if you still believe you are right -- tell me this -- you have been posting articles ad nausea about the ills of 'the other side' -- how many of them have you won over?  Zero -- or something very close to it?  And it's not because they somehow love their country less than you do.  All you (and those like you from both sides) are doing is driving a wedge deeper, poisoning our political and social atmosphere by your acrimony.  But I know, you (and others) enjoy doing it -- and so it goes... to nowhere, really, except down.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 2:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"You (and others) are only interested in sorting out blame before doing anything else (your way of 'understanding the problem')."


^^ that is a total BS statement


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 2:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben2World said
QUOTE

The problem between us is that I see moochers pretty much everywhere.  It's why we have
mutli-trillion-dollars budget deficit.


See that is kind of what I'm talking about. Yous see " moochers pretty much everywhere"

and no its not why we have a 'trillion-dollars budget deficit.' or at least not the
main reason. The main reason is the steep steep decline in revenues from the recession
and subsequent downturn in the economy

Ben2World said
QUOTE

I agree with you that we need to understand the problem.  In this case, however, finger
pointing has been going on for years -- and our ship of state is sinking all the while.  In
an emergency -- physical or fiscal or whatever type -- sometimes you need to treat the
immediate symptoms -- and after that -- spend quality time studying the causes.


No. This isn't the same thing. Now before you start to make this a false equivalene why did
David Frum say


The problem with the Republican leaders is that they’re cowards, not that they’re
fundamentally mistaken. The real locus of the problem is the Republican activist base and
the Republican donor base. They went apocalyptic over the past four years, and that was
exploited by a lot of people in the conservative world. I won’t soon forget the lupine smile
that played over the head of one major conservative institution when he told me that our
donors think the apocalypse has arrived, that Republicans have been fleeced and exploited
and lied to by a conservative entertainment complex.



http://www.mediaite.com/tv....complex

Ben2World said
QUOTE

Or if you still believe you are right -- tell me this -- you have been posting articles ad
nausea about the ills of 'the other side' -- how many of them have you won over?  Zero -- or
something very close to it?


By the same line of argument I could ask you what problems have solved on this forum?

I mean you say that we should be discussing the nation's problems so by the same argument
I could ask what problems have you solved Ben? Who have you convinced?

Ben2World said
QUOTE

And it's not because they somehow love their country less than
you do.


^^ red herring/strawman

Who said anything about anyone not loving their country? No one

That typical, once again, is an argument by the right directed at progressives like me


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politics is the art of taking advantage of mass stupidity and ignorance
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Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 2:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Nov. 23 2012, 11:26 am)
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"You (and others) are only interested in sorting out blame before doing anything else (your way of 'understanding the problem')."


^^ that is a total BS statement

That surprises you?  Look back to the last 100+ of your posts!  Pretty much every one of them is finger pointing.

Not saying that they are all false, but am saying they are decidedly one-sided and if you think this is 'understanding the problem' -- your near-pure incendiary approach is no way to understanding -- much less solving anything.  Over.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2012, 2:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Nov. 23 2012, 2:35 pm)
QUOTE

(Dennis The Menace @ Nov. 23 2012, 11:26 am)
QUOTE
"You (and others) are only interested in sorting out blame before doing anything else (your way of 'understanding the problem')."


^^ that is a total BS statement

That surprises you?  Look back to the last 100+ of your posts!  Pretty much every one of them is finger pointing.

Not saying that are all false, but am saying they are decidedly one-sided and if you think this is 'understanding the problem' -- your near-pure incendiary approach is no way to understanding -- much less solving anything.  Over.

"finger pointing"

"decidedly one-sided"

"near-pure incendiary approach"

'pure incendiary'

^^ hyperbolic rhetoric


Your descriptions above couldn't have anything to do with the fact you generally disagree
with my views on economics now would it?

have you been able to even refute not only any of the facts but any of my arguments?

Who cares if you think its one-sided. In real life are things equally symmetrical where
both sides are equally to blame? Are both sides equally to blame? ya ya you will go on
about "who cares which side is to blame" and "why don't we go on about solving the
nations problems"(standard rhetoric from you) but are you solving the nations problems now
Ben? No you're playing forum politics now in so far as you're trying to make an issue out of
my posting style instead of actually discussing the issues.

Isn't that ironic?


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