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Ben2World 
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Posted on: Nov. 29 2012, 5:43 pm |
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I wish to see the state of Palestine coexisting peacefully with the state of Israel. But it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. For myself, I have long ago ceased feeling much of anything toward these two enemies who absolutely deserve each other.
Twitter and Facebook postings from both sides tugging at our heartstrings? I didn't read or watch a single one. Not interested. Not even a little bit.
In different conflicts, sometimes one feel sorry for the civilians, who are held hostage to the destructive doing's of their leadership. But in this case, I don't feel anything toward the civilians of either side -- since too many of them are supportive of their respective government's dead-end policies (or posturing's, really).
I visited Israel and Palestine back in 2008. It really is a beautiful place -- and I experienced true hospitality from both sides -- beautiful people -- just don't put the two sides in the same room.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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EastieTrekker
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Posted on: Nov. 29 2012, 5:47 pm |
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Glad you brought this up. I consider myself well apprised of most worldly "going-ons", but this is one where I must plead ignorance. I really don't understand what the heck is going on between Palestine and Israel. I mean I get the basic reasons for the conflict between the two "states", but why is there resistance to the Palestine becoming an independent, globally recognized state?
Obviously, part of the US's resistance is linked to our relationship with Israel, but it just seems to me that a large part of the conflict surrounds Palestine's seeking out statehood. So wouldn't granting that statehood lead to less conflict between the two?
What am I missing? Somebody school me. Seriously.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice. 
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Ben2World
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Posted on: Nov. 29 2012, 5:52 pm |
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(EastieTrekker @ Nov. 29 2012, 2:47 pm)
QUOTE Glad you brought this up. I consider myself well apprised of most worldly "going-ons", but this is one where I must plead ignorance. I really don't understand what the heck is going on between Palestine and Israel. I mean I get the basic reasons for the conflict between the two "states", but why is there resistance to them becoming an independent, globally recognized state?
Obviously, part of the US's resistance is linked to our relationship with Israel, but it just seems to me that a large part of the conflict surrounds Palestine's seeking out statehood. So wouldn't granting that statehood lead to less conflict between the two?
What am I missing? Somebody school me. Seriously.
As you no doubt read in the article, only a small handful of states voted against Palestine.
Israel does not wish to see an independent Palestine -- for reasons ranging from legitimate grievances to downright selfish shortsightedness. Regardless, whatever Israel wants -- including the continued encroachment of Palestinian lands -- the US will not oppose -- beyond the very, very mildest form of verbal disapproval.
We, the US, is not (and has never been) a fair broker. Fine, sometimes, we feel we have to take sides -- but I wish our leadership will just stop pretending!
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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JimInMD
Group: Members
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Joined: Feb. 2011
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Posted on: Nov. 29 2012, 5:53 pm |
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Eastie, I think the biggest question revolves around exactly where that Palestinian state would be. Israel's borders today don't look much like they did when drafted after WWII. Both sides (Israel and their non-Jewish neighbors) have strong opinions about exactly what those borders should be.
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Checking out for a while, find me on FB.
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muttpacker
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Posted on: Nov. 29 2012, 6:20 pm |
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Israel has refused, almost from the outset, to stay on their side of the border. They continue to build settlements on farmland that used to belong to farmers who were separated from their land by the border, but were allowed to continue to farm it. Palestine launching rockets at them is little more than a child beating on their door after having been locked in their room. It's all they have to continue to draw attention to themselves. It's likely that Americans would ignore the situation entirely and allow Israel to take whatever their collective will desires were it not for the occasional tantrums of Palestinians. It's a mess we do nothing to stop because... well, I don't know why. My only thought is the religious connection between the Jews of Israel and the Christians of the US. Beyond that, I got nothin'.
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Ignorant is temporary. Stupid is permanent. Choosing to be ignorant is stupid.
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Drift Woody
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Posted on: Nov. 29 2012, 6:32 pm |
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The 2-state solution is impossible, unless there is some drastic unforseen change in the situation.
The West Bank is peppered with Jewish settlements, then sliced & diced by roads connecting those settlements.
How can there be a sovereign Palestinian state that does not have authority over or access to so much of its own territory?
Does anyone really think Israel will abandon all those settlements (many of them decades-old communities), or that the Jews living there will accept Palestinian authority and soverignty over their homes & communities?
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
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Ben2World
Group: Members
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Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 8:36 pm |
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(Drift Woody @ Nov. 29 2012, 3:32 pm)
QUOTE Does anyone really think Israel will abandon all those settlements (many of them decades-old communities), or that the Jews living there will accept Palestinian authority and soverignty over their homes & communities?
Hard to believe indeed.
But then, does anyone actually believe the Palestinians will let Israelis take the land -- without fighting, losing, and standing up to fight again?
Some people seem to see all this as some kind of a board game, where you contest, and if you lose, then you bow out gracefully and honorably. And they seem to fault the Palestinians for trying and failing in '48, '67, and '73 -- and still showing bad form by resorting to "terrorism".
But seriously, let's all put ourselves in a situation where some foreign power dictates to us that the Native Americans are the real owners of our lands -- and never mind the millions of title deeds and all that we hold -- but we must give up 25 of our 50 states! Hell, we would be up in arms and we would be fighting back. And if we lose, our dying breath would be used to tell our kids to avenge the injustice.
But yeah, we are the strongest nation on earth and the above won't happen to us. Which actually puts us in a bad condition to truly appreciate, understand, and empathize the plight (and emotions) of people whose lands are taken away from them. In other words, we are not the best judges here -- although America being America, that doesn't stop us from insisting upon that role.
Romney's arrogant and simplistically childish views re. Israel vs. Palestine is one important reason why I could not vote for him to be our next president. In this most emotional of conflicts, there is no 'forces of right' vs. 'forces of evil' here.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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craigwill
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 9:50 pm |
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To best understand the Palestinian/Israeli dispute, it's important to understand Zionism and its development starting back in the latter part of the nineteenth century. A good comprehensive study is One Palestine, Complete by Tom Segev, an Israeli historian. Choices were made in the late 1800s, early 1900s, by the then leaders of the Zionist movement that set the stage for what we have today. Basically, it was choosing Palestine, an area within the Ottoman Empire, inhabited mostly by Arabs (with just a small community of Orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem at peace with their Arab neighbors) as a new homeland for the Jewish People. Despite the fact that this land was already inhabited by people not of the Jewish faith or ethnicity, the Zionist began an arduous, but organized and well-financed program to re-settle Jewish people into Palestinian lands. Every possible resource and tactic was exploited to this end. And every possible resource and tactic continues to be exploited for the continued confiscation and settlement of Arab lands. Insistence for peace negotiations is just a stalling tactic while more settlers are moved into occupied territories. It's blatant deception aided and abetted by the U.S. Sadly, the more organized, better financed, and militarily stronger opponent rules the day. Not unlike the plight of Native Americans.
I can't understand why the Palestinians didn't declare statehood years ago. The Zionist wasted no time after the U.N. partition in 1948 to claim their state.
Here's a fascinating talk from someone with a very unique perspective - the son of a highly respected Israeli general, Miko Peled:
http://youtu.be/TOaxAckFCuQ
I think every American needs to understand this issue well because it's one of the root causes of 9/11 and very well may pull us into even greater conflict in the Middle East then we're already in.
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 10:03 pm |
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"I can't understand why the Palestinians didn't declare statehood years ago. The Zionist wasted no time after the U.N. partition in 1948 to claim their state. "
Because their demographers can read a population trend. They'll get it all, everything west of the Jordan, simply by having babies and waiting, with the occasional taunt of the Israelis to ensure a really tight grip is maintained on the occupied territories. Then one day soon they stop asking for freedom and start demanding the vote. Greater Israel with an ethnic Arab prime minister soon after.
The Israeli hard liners "facts on the ground" ( the ever expanding settlements, the "security roads", the exclusive water rights) that they've ceaselessly worked on since the 70's comes to bite them in the tush.
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 10:42 pm |
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Hardly equivalent: we're not going to lose our nation, they are.
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 10:52 pm |
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(craigwill @ Dec. 04 2012, 7:44 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 10:03 pm)
QUOTE Because their demographers can read a population trend. They'll get it all, everything west of the Jordan, simply by having babies and waiting, That might work in Northern Ireland where the Catholics can't use birth control, but Israel pays big bucks to any American Jew who wants to give up their life here and go be a settler in Palestine. For every Palestinian baby, there's a rich Zionist who wants to go play holy-warrior settler.
Yeah? Then it didn't work. Check the populations. Greater Israel is close to already majority Arab, not yet but soon.
http://forward.com/article....-agenda
"In sum, Jews (by the core definition) constitute 49.8 percent of the total population present on the territory between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, including foreign workers; 50.8 percent after subtracting foreign workers; 58.5 percent after subtracting Gaza; 75.5 percent after subtracting the Arab population of the West Bank; 75.7 percent after subtracting the Arab population of the Golan Heights; and 78.6 percent after subtracting the Arab population of East Jerusalem. If the enlarged rather than the core Jewish population is considered, each of these percentages increases by 3-4 percentage points."
Page 54-55 http://www.jewishdatabank.org/Reports/World_Jewish_Population_2010.pdf
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 11:15 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:05 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 7:42 pm)
QUOTE Hardly equivalent: we're not going to lose our nation, they are. Did I say anything about equivalent? Just saying we get burned by underwriting the wrong-headed actions of our ally. Doesn't mean we get burned the same or equivalent -- but simply that we too face the consequences of our actions.
No, I wrote what you posted wasn't equivalent to the consequences facing Israel.
Of course we face the consequences of our actions, obvious much?
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Ben2World
Group: Members
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Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 11:19 pm |
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:15 pm)
QUOTE
(Ben2World @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:05 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 7:42 pm)
QUOTE Hardly equivalent: we're not going to lose our nation, they are. Did I say anything about equivalent? Just saying we get burned by underwriting the wrong-headed actions of our ally. Doesn't mean we get burned the same or equivalent -- but simply that we too face the consequences of our actions. No, I wrote what you posted wasn't equivalent to the consequences facing Israel. Of course we face the consequences of our actions, obvious much?
Again, nobody said anything about equivalent. Assume much? 
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39803
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 11:28 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:19 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:15 pm)
QUOTE
(Ben2World @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:05 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 7:42 pm)
QUOTE Hardly equivalent: we're not going to lose our nation, they are. Did I say anything about equivalent? Just saying we get burned by underwriting the wrong-headed actions of our ally. Doesn't mean we get burned the same or equivalent -- but simply that we too face the consequences of our actions. No, I wrote what you posted wasn't equivalent to the consequences facing Israel. Of course we face the consequences of our actions, obvious much? Again, nobody said anything about equivalent. ASSume much?
Ooh look a clever!
[my highlight so all can admire the clever]
Such emotion lol
Try looking up the word "observation"?
I just wrote I wrote that. And as I'm not channelling The Matrix....
Seriousely people are now restricted to terms the almighty Ben has introduced and no others? Yeah that'll go big. 
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craigwill
Group: Members
Posts: 159
Joined: Nov. 2010
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 11:29 pm |
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 10:52 pm)
QUOTE
(craigwill @ Dec. 04 2012, 7:44 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 10:03 pm)
QUOTE Because their demographers can read a population trend. They'll get it all, everything west of the Jordan, simply by having babies and waiting, That might work in Northern Ireland where the Catholics can't use birth control, but Israel pays big bucks to any American Jew who wants to give up their life here and go be a settler in Palestine. For every Palestinian baby, there's a rich Zionist who wants to go play holy-warrior settler. Yeah? Then it didn't work. Check the populations. Greater Israel is close to already majority Arab, not yet but soon. http://forward.com/article....-agenda
I'm not seeing it. Granted, the Zionists have quite a challenge competing with Mother Nature, but an aggressive immigration program can help them hang on to their majority. And don't underestimate the Zionists in that regard.
Here's another link that shows them holding on through 2050 with current projections:
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.re....#Graph8
I do think a one-state anti-apartheid government is the only hope for a solution. But there is so much animosity over lost homes that it would take a great deal of reparations to fix it. And that's never going to happen. We'll see Armageddon first.
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Dec. 04 2012, 11:34 pm |
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Well the demographer that comes up a lot is Sergio DellaPergola and I added an overall study of his above, there are references on the topic to his more explicitly addressing the demographics of Greater Israel.
The population growth rates were these in the 2010 report of numbers up to 2009.:
"By our estimates, the 1997-2009 yearly average Palestinian population increase in the aggregate of the West Bank (not including East Jerusalem) and Gaza would be 2.91 percent. This strictly matches a 2.91 percent yearly growth rate for Arabs in Israel over the same period.143 The growth rate of Israel's Arab population was slowly declining and in 2009 was 2.5 percent, as against 1.7 percent for the Jewish population with immigration and 1.5 percent without immigration. The Palestinian population's growth rate in the aggregate of the West Bank and Gaza was probably decreasing as well to a level very similar to that of Israel's Arabs."
With the percentages so close as he reports up above even with immigration it looks like there'd be a tip.
I have no idea what will happen though I agree the probabilities all seem very ugly.
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craigwill
Group: Members
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Posted on: Dec. 05 2012, 12:04 am |
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Interesting. If Israel can no longer maintain high immigration rates, then it will inevitably become a South African-type scenario. Once all the smoke clears.
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 24134
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Dec. 05 2012, 12:16 am |
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:28 pm)
QUOTE
(Ben2World @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:19 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:15 pm)
QUOTE
(Ben2World @ Dec. 04 2012, 8:05 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 04 2012, 7:42 pm)
QUOTE Hardly equivalent: we're not going to lose our nation, they are. Did I say anything about equivalent? Just saying we get burned by underwriting the wrong-headed actions of our ally. Doesn't mean we get burned the same or equivalent -- but simply that we too face the consequences of our actions. No, I wrote what you posted wasn't equivalent to the consequences facing Israel. Of course we face the consequences of our actions, obvious much? Again, nobody said anything about equivalent. ASSume much? Ooh look a clever! [my highlight so all can admire the clever] Such emotion lol Try looking up the word "observation"? I just wrote I wrote that. And as I'm not channelling The Matrix.... Seriousely people are now restricted to terms the almighty Ben has introduced and no others? Yeah that'll go big.
Glad you are amused. But 'Red and bold' is vulgar. My italics really worked better.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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Old Frank
Group: Members
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Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Dec. 05 2012, 3:11 pm |
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Almost all conflicts can be resolved. Some can't.
This is one of the latter. Sorry.
Focus on minimizing collateral damage.
And I don't know how to even do that.
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My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
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Ben2World
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Posted on: Dec. 05 2012, 4:40 pm |
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A real risk, yes, but the last time peace 'almost' broke out with the road map and all -- no leader got assassinated.
Part of the problem right now is that rich clients continue to bankroll the hardliners -- so there is really no need and no incentives to negotiate -- meaning actually compromising and giving up something.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
