SUBSCRIBE | NEWSLETTERS | MAPS | VIDEOS | BLOGS | MARKETPLACE | CONTESTS
TRY BACKPACKER FREE!
SUBSCRIBE NOW and get
2 Free Issues and 3 Free Gifts!
Full Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Email: (required)
If I like it and decide to continue, I'll pay just $12.00, and receive a full one-year subscription (9 issues in all), a 73% savings off the newsstand price! If for any reason I decide not to continue, I'll write "cancel" on the invoice and owe nothing.
Your subscription includes 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Or click here to pay now and get 2 extra issues
Offer valid in US only.


» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

 

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic new poll
Topic: Syrian sarin< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
JimInMD Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3966
Joined: Feb. 2011
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 6:01 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012....15.html

Once again, please discuss.  If Assad's forces deploy sarin, how will the international community respond?  How SHOULD they respond?


--------------
"Your number one philosophy for personal security should be a life long commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

The 3 Stupids Rule:

Don’t go to stupid places, with stupid people, to do stupid things.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 2
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6597
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 7:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think a lot will depend on how Russia and china react. This is not a sign of American weakness, but a reality of there being little direct national interest in directly entering a conflict in Syria.

Turkey will be a key in it all as well.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 3
Squaretop Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1303
Joined: Feb. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 9:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't think
Assad will use the chemicals.  Hopefully, Russia and China can talk some sense into him.


--------------
You can't buy time or memories.
"How'd I get involved".
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 4
JimInMD Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3966
Joined: Feb. 2011
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 9:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't think he'll use them offensively.  I think that if he's in danger of losing control of the country, he's going to take as many people with him as he can.

--------------
"Your number one philosophy for personal security should be a life long commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

The 3 Stupids Rule:

Don’t go to stupid places, with stupid people, to do stupid things.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 5
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6597
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 10:03 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A weapon of last resort perhaps? I can see that. Maybe he hopes the threat of it will save him.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 6
Pathfinder1 Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 752
Joined: Apr. 2011
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 10:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi...


                                         Then, it's time to break out MOAB...!!
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 7
JimInMD Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3966
Joined: Feb. 2011
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 10:57 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Pathfinder1 @ Dec. 06 2012, 10:45 am)
QUOTE
Hi...


                                         Then, it's time to break out MOAB...!!

The problem is that you can't blow up sarin because it's a contact agent.  You can blow up the means to deliver it, but once it's mixed, it's dangerous for about a month until it breaks down.

--------------
"Your number one philosophy for personal security should be a life long commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

The 3 Stupids Rule:

Don’t go to stupid places, with stupid people, to do stupid things.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 8
Lamebeaver Search for posts by this member.
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 19468
Joined: Aug. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 12:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Syrian Sarin would be a great name for a band.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 9
High_Sierra_Fan Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 43895
Joined: Aug. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 12:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Whether by massed artillery fire such as used by Russia on the people of Grozny or a chemical agent such as this one, mass murder is mass murder.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 10
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26369
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We went through our own 'trial by fire' and came out a stronger nation.  The Lincoln Administration used all the technology and weaponry of its day to bind the union, no matter what.  Sherman made it his goal to "make Georgia howl".

Seriously, imagine if the South had succeeded in getting the British Empire to intervene -- to tie Lincoln's hand!  Probably:

1.  Far fewer deaths and destruction those four years?
2.  Far longer / drawn out civil war instead?
3.  Britain becomes the lightning rod -- attacked and manipulated by all sides?
3.  Or we are now separate nations still wary of each other?

To me, the issue isn't comparing Assad to Lincoln (ludicrous) or our society vs. Syrian society.  The issue is that more often than not, societies need to hammer out their problems -- and sometimes, that includes fighting it out -- to finally be one -- or to finally go their separate ways.

It's hard to see humans bludgeoned and not wanting to "do something" -- but we do need to look at the bigger picture -- and likely outcomes before we sink ourselves into the fight.

As another example, Egypt still has a lot to do, but they are working on it (including fighting it out).  Imagine if we had championed the current Egyptian president-turned-dictator!!  Half the country would start hating us again..  





--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Online
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 11
Lamebeaver Search for posts by this member.
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 19468
Joined: Aug. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 06 2012, 11:15 am)
QUOTE
To me, the issue isn't comparing Assad to Lincoln (ludicrous) or our society vs. Syrian society.  The issue is that more often than not, societies need to hammer out their problems -- and sometimes, that includes fighting it out -- to finally be one -- or to finally go their separate ways.

I don't know.  If the South had won, I think Lincoln would not have been treated very nicely in their history books.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 12
WalksWithBlackflies Search for posts by this member.
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 10240
Joined: Jun. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

My question: legitimate concern or sabre-rattling?

--------------
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 13
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26369
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Dec. 06 2012, 10:23 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Dec. 06 2012, 11:15 am)
QUOTE
To me, the issue isn't comparing Assad to Lincoln (ludicrous) or our society vs. Syrian society.  The issue is that more often than not, societies need to hammer out their problems -- and sometimes, that includes fighting it out -- to finally be one -- or to finally go their separate ways.

I don't know.  If the South had won, I think Lincoln would not have been treated very nicely in their history books.

Agree.  The victor gets to write the history book.  And that's why I posted the photos -- to remind ourselves of the brutality -- a brutality that took 100+ years to heal (and some will argue we are still not 100% healed).

In our case, one side won by vanquishing the other.  OTOH, we could well have divided ourselves into multiple nations - especially if there had been foreign intervention to reign in some of the North's brutality!  But imagine WWII, if USA supported Britain while CSA supported Germany.  Our cities and our countryside could easily have been devastated -- just like the ones in Europe back then!

Lots of "we don't know's".  But mostly, I believe it's better to let the locals forge their own societies -- both in principle -- and for practical reasons too.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Online
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 14
wwwest Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6757
Joined: Dec. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not much new world thinking here, neh?  It's not the world of the US Civil War, Toto.

Neither Turkey nor Israel is going to stand by and permit the use of Syrian sarin, IMO.  I suspect that either one of them could remove Assad within a few hours, and a lot of his control and command, and then the threat of Syrian genocide would be over.

Hopefully, Assad is fully aware of this and even when facing final loss, which will happen, will not deploy the sarin.  I suppose it depends on far his megolmania extends. YMMV


--------------
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 15
wwwest Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6757
Joined: Dec. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As an aside, if the South had been willing to abolish slavery, the British almost certainly would have stepped in to support them, but like higher taxes for the rich, that was a non-starter in the South!

--------------
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 16
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26369
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 1:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Dec. 06 2012, 10:38 am)
QUOTE
Not much new world thinking here, neh?  It's not the world of the US Civil War, Toto.

Did anyone say that Syria today is just like USA 140 years ago?  ???  Re-read what I believe are the issues.  The principle of self determination.  The many uncertainties of intervening in civil wars.

Fun to twist someone's post and then attack it, eh?   :D


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Online
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 17
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26369
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 2:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Dec. 06 2012, 10:38 am)
QUOTE
Neither Turkey nor Israel is going to stand by and permit the use of Syrian sarin, IMO.

Maybe.  But unlikely.  I can see Israel blasting any Syrian border encroachment.  But I doubt either wants to get itself into the thick of Syria's sordid domestic problems.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Online
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 18
wwwest Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6757
Joined: Dec. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 2:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I agree, they would do nothing to enter into Syrian government issues, it would just be a larger, louder Bin Laden like operation, kill Assad and his top generals and let the chips fall where they may.  

Just stop the escalation to sarin in such a crowded neighborhood, and leave the Syrians to work out their own future.  Neither Israel nor Turkey has any territorial interest in Syria, but they won't let sarin happen.  Probably a Seal Team or two to assist them too, though never admitted.  

Pretty much like what will happen if Iran ever makes the mistake to produce a nuclear weapon.


--------------
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 19
WalksWithBlackflies Search for posts by this member.
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 10240
Joined: Jun. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 2:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Another question: The use of the over-used words "red line"... is that the new PC way to say "a line in the sand"?

--------------
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 20
wwwest Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6757
Joined: Dec. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 2:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Naw, not all that PC, just an acknowledgement that NASCAR is pervasive in the MSM.

--------------
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 21
High_Sierra_Fan Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 43895
Joined: Aug. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Probably dates from even before NASCAR was widespread: from back in the day of manual shifts and tachometers where the upper rpm limit was/is designated on the tach with a red line. Heck it might predate the internal combustion era: steam engine pressure gauges with a max-pressure red line?

The "do not go above this setting without risk of bad things" sort of thing.

All those liberal MSM types driving Porsches no doubt.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 22
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26369
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Very likely back to steam engine gauges.

--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Online
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 23
High_Sierra_Fan Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 43895
Joined: Aug. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 06 2012, 12:33 pm)
QUOTE
Very likely back to steam engine gauges.

Yes, that IS where "going balls out" comes from after all.

Steam engine safety limiters being rotating devices: a spring holding a valve closed against the pull of two rotating ball wights pulling against the valve spring. Exceed the safe speed and the weights pull the valve open and steam pressure would be bled off.

The balls were partway along an elbowed arm so as the speed of rotation increased the balls slowly go outward until the rpm is reached which pulls open the valve.

IIRC the speed safety limiter on elevators has a similar arrangement.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=balls+out
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 24
Franco Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3126
Joined: Feb. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 06 2012, 3:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The moment those bombs are loaded onto the planes , the "west" will strike.
There are already more than 10,000 US troops there including over 70 fighter bombers plus the Israeli forces.
Germany is also about to send troops and more Patriots, France and the UK already have military intelligence in the area too.
Is Assad mad enough to do it ?
Is he still there ?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 25
Montecresto Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 10 2012, 8:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Dec. 06 2012, 10:03 am)
QUOTE
A weapon of last resort perhaps? I can see that. Maybe he hopes the threat of it will save him.

He has never threatened this. His government has repeatedly said they would never use chemical WMD on their own people. The US government and "intelligence community" has no credibility with such claims, think back. Watch Colin Powell's chief of staff, Colonel Wilkerson's interview in the truth about Syria thread!

--------------
Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 26
High_Sierra_Fan Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 43895
Joined: Aug. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 10 2012, 12:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Dec. 10 2012, 5:22 am)
QUOTE

(Land Rover @ Dec. 06 2012, 10:03 am)
QUOTE
A weapon of last resort perhaps? I can see that. Maybe he hopes the threat of it will save him.

He has never threatened this. His government has repeatedly said they would never use chemical WMD on their own people. The US government and "intelligence community" has no credibility with such claims, think back. Watch Colin Powell's chief of staff, Colonel Wilkerson's interview in the truth about Syria thread!

The guy who fed Powell the lies he mouthed at the U.N. isn't  in possession of any "credibility" on his morning bowel movement let alone anything occurring in that part of the world.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
25 replies since Dec. 06 2012, 6:01 am < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


 
reply to topic new topic new poll

» Quick Reply Syrian sarin
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code



Get 2 FREE Trial Issues and 3 FREE GIFTS
Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
The Best Trails in America
YES! Please send me my FREE trial issues of Backpacker
and my 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Full Name:
City:
Address 1:
Zip Code:
State:
Address 2:
Email (required):
Free trial offer valid for US subscribers only. Canadian subscriptions | International subscriptions