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Topic: McConnell filibusters his own proposal, His scheme backfires< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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Dennis The Menace Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 2:58 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs....roposal

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politics is the art of taking advantage of mass stupidity and ignorance
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nogods Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 7:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And they engage in these machinations with no shame whatsoever.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 7:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 07 2012, 7:05 am)
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And they engage in these machinations with no shame whatsoever.

I worked in and around the Senate for a few years.  Trust me, the shenanigans that get reported are only a fraction of the foolishness.  The archaic rules of the Senate make it REALLY easy for someone that understands them to turn the place on it's head.

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"Your number one philosophy for personal security should be a life long commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 11:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"This is a key development, because it’s the first major test we’ve seen of whether Dems will remain united behind the idea that Congress should mostly relinquish control over the debt ceiling to the president. Dems passed this test."

WTF!!  Terrible Terrible idea!!  what the heck is this?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 12:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"what the heck is this?"

The Senate Minority Leader's answer to the leadership issue? Both Boehner and McConnell have been pushing for the President to lead on this so that's their approach. Pretty consistent with the Republican leanings toward an Imperial Presidency as espoused by Dick Cheney both before and during his run as Vice President. A view I believe he first articulated in the late 70's.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(dnlskier @ Dec. 07 2012, 8:26 am)
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"This is a key development, because it’s the first major test we’ve seen of whether Dems will remain united behind the idea that Congress should mostly relinquish control over the debt ceiling to the president. Dems passed this test."

WTF!!  Terrible Terrible idea!!  what the heck is this?

What is the value of making payment of debts Congress has already incurred--payment that is required under the Constitution--conditional on further approval of Congress?  

You may not like the fact that the debt ceiling has to be raised, but that's neither here nor there; the reality is that it's not optional.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 07 2012, 10:32 am)
QUOTE

(dnlskier @ Dec. 07 2012, 8:26 am)
QUOTE
"This is a key development, because it’s the first major test we’ve seen of whether Dems will remain united behind the idea that Congress should mostly relinquish control over the debt ceiling to the president. Dems passed this test."

WTF!!  Terrible Terrible idea!!  what the heck is this?

What is the value of making payment of debts Congress has already incurred--payment that is required under the Constitution--conditional on further approval of Congress?  

You may not like the fact that the debt ceiling has to be raised, but that's neither here nor there; the reality is that it's not optional.

Yes the Congressional responsibility component has always made me judge the "debt ceiling" as a mistake: the place to deal with debt is in the originating legislation, not when the "bill" for that legislation comes due.
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Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 1:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 07 2012, 12:34 pm)
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Yes the Congressional responsibility component has always made me judge the "debt ceiling" as a mistake: the place to deal with debt is in the originating legislation, not when the "bill" for that legislation comes due.

There will, of course, be times when the projected cost of the legislation -- or of longstanding programs like unemployment insurance -- will be greater than anticipated, due to an event like the 2008 financial collpase & subsequent recession. Military interventions can also bust the budget.

The point being, is it smart to have imbedded in our legislative process a budget showdown that can handicap us during economic difficulties or a foreign crisis?

Under what circumstances does it make sense for the United States to actually default on its debt? Last time, the mere threat of default resulted in an historic lowering of USA credit rating.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2012, 3:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Dec. 07 2012, 10:56 am)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 07 2012, 12:34 pm)
QUOTE
Yes the Congressional responsibility component has always made me judge the "debt ceiling" as a mistake: the place to deal with debt is in the originating legislation, not when the "bill" for that legislation comes due.

There will, of course, be times when the projected cost of the legislation -- or of longstanding programs like unemployment insurance -- will be greater than anticipated, due to an event like the 2008 financial collpase & subsequent recession. Military interventions can also bust the budget.

The point being, is it smart to have imbedded in our legislative process a budget showdown that can handicap us during economic difficulties or a foreign crisis?

Under what circumstances does it make sense for the United States to actually default on its debt? Last time, the mere threat of default resulted in an historic lowering of USA credit rating.

Then appropriations bills get adjusted down, or programs get changed.

That's what Congress gets paid for IMHO.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 10 2012, 9:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Dec. 07 2012, 1:56 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 07 2012, 12:34 pm)
QUOTE
Yes the Congressional responsibility component has always made me judge the "debt ceiling" as a mistake: the place to deal with debt is in the originating legislation, not when the "bill" for that legislation comes due.

There will, of course, be times when the projected cost of the legislation -- or of longstanding programs like unemployment insurance -- will be greater than anticipated, due to an event like the 2008 financial collpase & subsequent recession. Military interventions can also bust the budget.

I think it goes without saying that often things don't turn out financially as planned. This happens in the private sector, as well as the public sector.  When it happens, its the job of those who wrote the legislation to modify it to meet the new realities.  Allowing our legislators to stick their heads in the sand does not seem like a wise solution.

QUOTE
The point being, is it smart to have imbedded in our legislative process a budget showdown that can handicap us during economic difficulties or a foreign crisis?
Maybe.  Maybe not.  But the alternative is likely worse.  Giving ONE man the power to raise the debt ceiling without limit.  Even Senator Obama saw the danger in an out of control debt.  Just as it takes an act of Congress to authorize a war or other large scale military adventure, I believe it should take an act of Congress to raise the debt ceiling.


QUOTE
Under what circumstances does it make sense for the United States to actually default on its debt?
In my opinion, NONE.

QUOTE
Last time, the mere threat of default resulted in an historic lowering of USA credit rating.
I believe the "mere threat of default", combined with Congress' complete failure to address spending (in particular entitlement spending) resulted in the "historic lowering of USA credit rating".
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Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 10 2012, 11:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Raising the debt ceiling is not an increase in spending; it's fulfilling debt obligations incurred by legislation already passed by Congress. Congress has the power to pass legislation, not the president. He can use his political influence to urge the introduction and passage of legislation, but he can only sign or veto what Congress passes.

You don't think it ever makes sense for our government to default on its debt. I agree, and I think it follows that it doesn't ever make sense to threaten default. If a political party would actually carry through on that threat, they are willfully doing real damage to the country. If they won't actually take that disastrous step, then threatening to do so is an empty bluff.

But the Teaparty members of Congress weren't bluffing. They were advocating default if they didn't get what they wanted. If you think America's credit rating would have been lowered absent the manufactured debt ceiling crisis, I think you're mistaken.


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KenV Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 9:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Dec. 10 2012, 11:00 pm)
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Raising the debt ceiling is not an increase in spending; it's fulfilling debt obligations incurred by legislation already passed by Congress.

Is it really?  We're approaching a "fiscal cliff" because Congress wrote legislation that requires reductions in federal spending AND increases in federal revenue.  Clearly, in any given year Congress CAN prevent an increase in our debt and CAN prevent an increase in the debt ceiling.  The debt ceiling is not just about past legislation.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You are confusing the "fiscal cliff" with the debt ceiling. Congress can legislate at any time regardless of either.

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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 13 2012, 11:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Dec. 11 2012, 10:18 pm)
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You are confusing the "fiscal cliff" with the debt ceiling. Congress can legislate at any time regardless of either.

Exactly my point.  If it's true that raising the debt ceiling is "fulfilling debt obligations incurred by legislation already passed by Congress." the implication is that Congress cannot pass new legislation that reduces the debt and thus prevents a mandatory rise in the debt ceiling.  Clearly Congress CAN prevent anincrease in the debt and a resulting increase in the deft ceiling.  That's the point of the "past" legislation that created the fiscal cliff.  It reduces the debt, but does so in an arbitrary manner that will hurt the economy.

And it is my opinion that since Congress has full control of the annual debt, they should have full control of the debt ceiling.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 14 2012, 12:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

It implies no such thing. My point is that defaulting on debt is not a sensible option. I'm not saying the president should have control over the debt ceiling; I'm saying the debt ceiling itself is an artificial construct which has become a threat to the economy, given what happened last year.

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