SUBSCRIBE | NEWSLETTERS | MAPS | VIDEOS | BLOGS | MARKETPLACE | CONTESTS
TRY BACKPACKER FREE!
SUBSCRIBE NOW and get
2 Free Issues and 3 Free Gifts!
Full Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Email: (required)
If I like it and decide to continue, I'll pay just $12.00, and receive a full one-year subscription (9 issues in all), a 73% savings off the newsstand price! If for any reason I decide not to continue, I'll write "cancel" on the invoice and owe nothing.
Your subscription includes 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Or click here to pay now and get 2 extra issues
Offer valid in US only.


» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

Page 1 of 3123>>

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic new poll
Topic: Our newest right to work state< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
gunslinger Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6378
Joined: Mar. 2007
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 6:02 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Michigan is now a right to work state.

Why shouldn't it be?


--------------
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 2
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 6:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Unions existed for a reason.  Amazing, but some of the stuff we take for granted today -- 8 hours work or else overtime... even the right to get a paycheck at regular intervals -- were hard won for us by unions!!

But IMO, the vast majority of us have already been ingrained with notions of fair play and treatment, safe workplace, etc. -- and just as importantly, we now have much better laws that are enforced -- and unions today are much more hindrance than help!

So, a big thank you, unions, but yeah, except for maybe farm unions, I say 'good riddance' to state employee unions, airline pilots unions, teachers unions, teamsters, et al.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 3
KenV Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6897
Joined: Mar. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 9:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Unions certainly had their place.

In some circumstances they still have their place.

In my opinion the demise of unions was caused by their hubris and greed.  They got too strong and WAY too self centered.

I applaud the decline of unions and unionism, but sincerely hope they never completely go away.  I think they will always have a place in American society.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 4
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6578
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 9:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So why is the gap between wages and profits widening? Why are average wages stagnant. What sort of America does this make for the future?

There seems to be a collective delusion in America that ignores reality in favor of some free market ideal. I'm a big proponent of the market, but why do we want to pretend this human creation is perfect?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 5
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 9:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Dec. 11 2012, 6:37 pm)
QUOTE
So why is the gap between wages and profits widening? Why are average wages stagnant. What sort of America does this make for the future?

There seems to be a collective delusion in America that ignores reality in favor of some free market ideal. I'm a big proponent of the market, but why do we want to pretend this human creation is perfect?

Because more and more people all around the world have caught up with us in manufacturing -- and can do the same (and sometimes even better) for less?  So more and more of us gravitate to service jobs?

Conversely, notice how none of the techies in the "campuses" of Apple or Microsoft or Google are union?  And notice how well they are treated -- comfy and spacious work environments, free sodas even -- with pay and options to match?  They command higher wages because there are not enough people with the know how to fill all the spots available.

The real delusion is thinking we can continue to pay world-class wages for "cookie cutter" type jobs.  It's been tried on US Steel, GM, etc. for decades now -- and it has hobbled these companies' ability to compete in world markets (not to excuse bad / greedy / shortsighted management but that's a whole another issue).

Finally, this human creation is NOT perfect.  But unlike Communism which tried to achieve good by going counter against human nature (let's educate everyone to be altruistic) -- capitalism recognizes human greed and fear and all that -- and tries to harness these qualities to 'create more wealth'.

And for all the ills of capitalism, it would be rather ignorant -- and maybe even obscene -- for Americans to benefit so much -- and yet refusing to acknowledge same.  Lots of Filipinos and Indians and Chinese, etc. would love to share what we've got -- and capitalism is helping many, many of them!


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 6
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6578
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben... Gap between wages and profits....

You seem to be unable to grasp the point here. That American companies continue to profit, but less of it is making its way down.

You also try to look at things in terms of individuals, but ignore the collective effects on America as a nation. We can't all work at google or apple, or even hp or dell.

This has consequences for America, where success is as dependent on our ability to consume as well as produce.

The alternatives are not capitalism or communism, there's a lot of ground between the two. We can rationally apply capitalistic theory, while accepting and ameliorating its flaws and consequences.

But while we are at it, America capitalism is back to following the path Marx said it would. We managed to prove him wrong for nearly a century, but now the American right and foolish libertarians seem determined to prove him right.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 7
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

EXACTLY!!  American companies continue to profit.  So, you see, the money is there.  And the rewards go to those who can create/plan/execute stuff that other people can't.

We can't all work in the Apple campus here at home.  But so long as we (or really, our children) possess world-class skill sets -- they can work at commanding positions anywhere and everywhere in the world!

Because we wish to maintain our world class standard of living -- we have priced ourselves out of entire classes of jobs.  Unions trying to hold on to these jobs are doomed to fail.  The better way is to equip ourselves to hold high-paying jobs that are high-paying because they are in demand -- not because of union extortion (which can just speed up the demise of affected companies).

How sad, that so many people here are so provincial they don't see and don't wish to see the bigger picture.  The world has changed.  Used to be each country possesses a full spectrum of jobs.  Nowadays, more and more, countries are "specializing".  We NEED to recognize that.

If we remain at the forefront of technology and management, then we Americans will hold top positions everywhere.  If our kids lose out -- then they will become the new "filipinos" -- expats working the low echelons.  With the entire world changing, American unions won't succeed in holding back the tide.  If nothing else, delaying the inevitable will rob us of precious time -- and make things much worse for us as a nation.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 8
justwalkin Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 494
Joined: Nov. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 11 2012, 6:09 pm)
QUOTE
But IMO, the vast majority of us have already been ingrained with notions of fair play and treatment, safe workplace, etc. -- and just as importantly, we now have much better laws that are enforced -- and unions today are much more hindrance than help!

Safe workplace?  Still a pipe dream.  Maybe in an office, but in the industrial arena I continue to see outrageous work practices.  The safety focus is strictly on preventing immediate lost-time injuries, while those maladies that develop over time are ignored.  You'd better have that safety harness on if you are more than a few feet off the ground, but nobody cares if you are breathing in mercury, benzene, or whatever while you are safely harnessed.

--------------
If a day in the mountains is better than a week at work, why aren't I working in the mountains?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 9
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Dec. 11 2012, 7:21 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Dec. 11 2012, 6:09 pm)
QUOTE
But IMO, the vast majority of us have already been ingrained with notions of fair play and treatment, safe workplace, etc. -- and just as importantly, we now have much better laws that are enforced -- and unions today are much more hindrance than help!

Safe workplace?  Still a pipe dream.  Maybe in an office, but in the industrial arena I continue to see outrageous work practices.  The safety focus is strictly on preventing immediate lost-time injuries, while those maladies that develop over time are ignored.  You'd better have that safety harness on if you are more than a few feet off the ground, but nobody cares if you are breathing in mercury, benzene, or whatever while you are safely harnessed.

It's all relative.  Not saying we should ever be complacent... but I bet many a Chinese miner would be utterly amazed at our mining environment -- meaning hardware like safety equipment, but perhaps more importantly in software like process and procedures.

Now, I know, there is something inappropriate in comparing ourselves to some of the lowest.  But my point is that "push comes to shove" most of us would not tolerate returning to the mining practices of the early 1900's.  With our societal mindset today, laws will be enforced and will continue to be improved upon -- union or no union.  My two cents (that's all it is).


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 10
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6578
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 11 2012, 10:28 pm)
QUOTE

(justwalkin @ Dec. 11 2012, 7:21 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Dec. 11 2012, 6:09 pm)
QUOTE
But IMO, the vast majority of us have already been ingrained with notions of fair play and treatment, safe workplace, etc. -- and just as importantly, we now have much better laws that are enforced -- and unions today are much more hindrance than help!

Safe workplace?  Still a pipe dream.  Maybe in an office, but in the industrial arena I continue to see outrageous work practices.  The safety focus is strictly on preventing immediate lost-time injuries, while those maladies that develop over time are ignored.  You'd better have that safety harness on if you are more than a few feet off the ground, but nobody cares if you are breathing in mercury, benzene, or whatever while you are safely harnessed.

It's all relative.  Not saying we should ever be complacent... but I bet many a Chinese miner would be utterly amazed at our mining environment -- meaning hardware like safety equipment, but perhaps more importantly in software like process and procedures.

Now, I know, there is something inappropriate in comparing ourselves to some of the lowest.  But my point is that "push comes to shove" most of us would not tolerate returning to the mining practices of the early 1900's.  With our societal mindset today, laws will be enforced and will continue to be improved upon -- union or no union.  My two cents (that's all it is).

You appear to be living in a fantasy world Ben. Still, as long as it fits into the broader we don't need unions thing then its all good right?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 11
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6578
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That sounds a little glib, but its a pretty good summary of what you're saying. We have poor, though better mine safety through a combination of regulations and historically, unions. Both of which those of a right wing persuasion see as bad things.

Interestingly I do a little work with the coal industry - there's not a single industry out there suffering from a bigger collective delusion right now.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 12
justwalkin Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 494
Joined: Nov. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben:

Your theory of relativity makes a very valid point which I fully acknowledge.  Chinese miners would love to have an entity such as MSHA watching their backs.

Back to unions and Right to Work states.  I'm union and I work in a state that has been a Right to Work state for almost 50 years.  We're still here getting the jobs done.  Those Michigan union thugs just need to take a step back and come to their senses.


--------------
If a day in the mountains is better than a week at work, why aren't I working in the mountains?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 13
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6578
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 10:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lets deal with this for what it is. A political attack by the GOP on what has been a traditional democratic source of funds, it goes alongside the citizens united rule, redistributing in the house, voter suppression around the voter ID crap and a host of other attempts to attack the political opposition core support.

This is a direct response to the slow lingering death of the GOP as it chokes on the pill of its own extremism.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 14
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Dec. 11 2012, 7:43 pm)
QUOTE
You appear to be living in a fantasy world Ben. Still, as long as it fits into the broader we don't need unions thing then its all good right?

All good?  Did you even read what I wrote?  About how we need to keep at the cutting edge and remain competitive -- or end up the new 'filipinos' of the world?  ???

Capitalism = competition = winners and some losers.

As for what the unions did to the old US Steel, et. al.  -- I noticed your repeated failure to acknowledge and discuss them.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 15
justwalkin Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 494
Joined: Nov. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Dec. 11 2012, 10:52 pm)
QUOTE
Lets deal with this for what it is. A political attack by the GOP on what has been a traditional democratic source of funds, it goes alongside the citizens united rule, redistributing in the house, voter suppression around the voter ID crap and a host of other attempts to attack the political opposition core support.

This is a direct response to the slow lingering death of the GOP as it chokes on the pill of its own extremism.

O.K., let's deal with it for what it is.  The legislature of a traditionally democratic, heavily unionized state was so desperate to stop job losses that it felt itself forced to take the radical (for Michigan) step of voting in Right to Work.  As I stated, I'm union, but I'm disgusted by those idiotic thugs in Lansing.

Just look at Detroit.  I rest my case.


--------------
If a day in the mountains is better than a week at work, why aren't I working in the mountains?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 16
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Dec. 11 2012, 7:48 pm)
QUOTE
Ben:

Your theory of relativity makes a very valid point which I fully acknowledge.  Chinese miners would love to have an entity such as MSHA watching their backs.

Back to unions and Right to Work states.  I'm union and I work in a state that has been a Right to Work state for almost 50 years.  We're still here getting the jobs done.  Those Michigan union thugs just need to take a step back and come to their senses.

I respect your impartial stance in this.  Thanks.

--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 17
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6578
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You are still struggling to grasp the concept that profits are up yet median incomes aren't. We've made huge productivity advances, yet the rewards are going disproportionately to a smaller number of people.

No amount of your flights of libertarian fancy tackle that question. Continuing to strip the powers of already decimated unions will only exasperate the process.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 18
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Dec. 11 2012, 8:18 pm)
QUOTE
You are still struggling to grasp the concept that profits are up yet median incomes aren't. We've made huge productivity advances, yet the rewards are going disproportionately to a smaller number of people.

No amount of your flights of libertarian fancy tackle that question. Continuing to strip the powers of already decimated unions will only exasperate the process.

And you are still ignoring issues perhaps too difficult for you to grasp.  Again, tell me about the union and US Steel and why that didn't last.

--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 19
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6322
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Dec. 11 2012, 5:02 pm)
QUOTE
Michigan is now a right to work state.

Why shouldn't it be?

Because it accelerates the lowering of the standard of living for the American worker.

For some unfathomable reason, that's a positive development in rightwing bizarro world.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 20
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Dec. 11 2012, 8:26 pm)
QUOTE

(gunslinger @ Dec. 11 2012, 5:02 pm)
QUOTE
Michigan is now a right to work state.

Why shouldn't it be?

Because it accelerates the lowering of the standard of living for the American worker.

For some unfathomable reason, that's a positive development in rightwing bizarro world.

Productivity and skills determine our standard of living.  Not unions.  Ask the nerds at Apple or Microsoft or Google.  Why are they paid so handsomely and treated so well -- relative to so many other workers in manufacturing and service?  Union?  Au contraire.

The sooner Americans can wean themselves away from protectionsim -- including seeking union cover -- and focus on bettering their skill sets -- the better chance our nation will have to continue competing successfully in the world.  And why should we want to compete and win?  Because that ultimately determines our standard of living.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 21
tRoLLin_mOtOr Search for posts by this member.
Strategery
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 987
Joined: Feb. 2007
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 11 2012, 11:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am a merchant mariner, and a union member.  Our union works in all branches (towing, passenger vessels, coastwise cargo to name a few) of the maritime industry up and down the west coast, and one obvious benefit to employers is that the union ensures that properly trained, professional mariners are available for all sorts of jobs at previously agreed to wages through the hiring hall.  

Within our industry, there are still some situations where labor practices need policing, and the union carries a pretty big stick to ensure that we are treated fairly and that our interests and safety are well looked after.  It very rarely, if ever, is about wages for us.  It's about safety and working conditions.  The working deck of a vessel is and can be a dangerous place, and people still get injured or killed more frequently than they should.

In regards to wages, I feel we are well paid, and I have seen the influence of union labor wages increase pay for non-union mariners as well.  As soon as someone is offered a job with better wages and word gets out, all the employers up and down the waterfront start paying their people better to reduce the risk of losing employees to other shops.  As the old saying goes, a rising tide floats all ships.

The idea that people should make a decent, living wage for their efforts, in sometimes dangerous workplaces, and to be represented and to have a voice in the workplace should never become a thing of the past.


--------------
It is better to travel well than to arrive
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 22
Montanalonewolf Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6819
Joined: Mar. 2010
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 12:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't have a problem with those who want to belong to a union. Until they demand that I must also belong if I want to work.

Go ahead. Have your union but leave me out of it.


--------------
If you are free to be a Liberal- Thank a person with a gun.

Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 23
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6322
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 12:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Productivity has steadily been going up along with corporate profits, while wages are stagnant or declining. Undermining the capability of workers to collectively bargain is, more than anything else, an effort by corporate owners to funnel more of the profits into the pockets of the major shareholders (aka greed).

The same "conservatives" who undermine unions and tell low income workers to "better themselves" through education want to cut funding for student loans and are doing their best to make teaching a less desirable profession. Many college graduates can't find the jobs they were trained for in an economy brought to its knees by the conservative principle of deregulation.

So-called "right to work" laws and rhetoric in that context about making Americans "more competitive" are talking points issued by the ownership class through the politicians they've purchased.

This is not intended to help the American worker. It's intended to further enrich a small handful at the top.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 24
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 12:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Best place to work?  Maybe.  In any case, is Facebook unionized?  Right.  It isn't.

--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 25
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 25454
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 12:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Dec. 11 2012, 9:04 pm)
QUOTE
Productivity has steadily been going up along with corporate profits, while wages are stagnant or declining. Undermining the capability of workers to collectively bargain is, more than anything else, an effort by corporate owners to funnel more of the profits into the pockets of the major shareholders (aka greed).

The same "conservatives" who undermine unions and tell low income workers to "better themselves" through education want to cut funding for student loans and are doing their best to make teaching a less desirable profession. Many college graduates can't find the jobs they were trained for in an economy brought to its knees by the conservative principle of deregulation.

So-called "right to work" laws and rhetoric in that context about making Americans "more competitive" are talking points issued by the ownership class through the politicians they've purchased.

This is not intended to help the American worker. It's intended to further enrich a small handful at the top.

I really don't want to frame this into yet another tiresome left vs. right or conservatives vs. liberal tirade.

Reality calls for measuring productivity against our competitors as well -- which you made no mention thereof.  Sure, maybe our textile workers can produce more for similar wages thanks to better machines.  But when China or India trains a peasant to operate a similar machine -- whose productivity has risen more?

Workers have been blaming owners for a couple of centuries now.  First it was housing people in cheap mills rather than letting skilled artisans do their thing at home.  Then they were blamed for replacing people with machines.  Now, it's fashionable to blame the Chinese.

Nothing's changed.  The same factors in economics are still at work.  And just how did the United States manage to lose so many jobs and still grow richer?  By inventing entirely new industries and entirely new professional jobs!  Join them.  Or not.

Time to move Americans away from being just "lower or middling skilled" workers -- desperately trying to fend off the Chinese and such.  Americans deserve better -- and can achieve so much more.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 26
Dennis The Menace Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 10041
Joined: Apr. 2007
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 1:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Dec. 11 2012, 6:02 pm)
QUOTE
Michigan is now a right to work state.

Why shouldn't it be?

Gunslinger

Well lets start with the fact that Snyder said that he wouldn't make Michigan a right to
work state and that trying to do that would be divisive so Obviously Snyder Flip-flopped
on the issue.


This once again shows just how extreme this is. To put into perspective consider that Mitt
Romney's dad signed a law that expanded protections for private-sector collective
bargaining.


Congressman Sander Levin, a Royal Oak Democrat, stopped by my office Thursday to offer
perspective on how far the Michigan GOP has lurched from its pragmatic past. Levin was a
state senator in 1965, when he authored the modern Public Employee Relations Act, which
pretty much set the standards for public employee collective bargaining in Michigan.

The bill passed the Senate, 34-1. In the state House, the vote was 90-6. It was
overwhelmingly bipartisan.

The bill was signed into law by Republican Gov. George Romney, about the same time he signed
laws expanding protections for private-sector collective bargaining.



http://www.freep.com/article....ichigan


--------------
politics is the art of taking advantage of mass stupidity and ignorance
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 27
Dennis The Menace Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 10041
Joined: Apr. 2007
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 1:57 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Dec. 11 2012, 11:02 pm)
QUOTE

(Land Rover @ Dec. 11 2012, 10:52 pm)
QUOTE
Lets deal with this for what it is. A political attack by the GOP on what has been a traditional democratic source of funds, it goes alongside the citizens united rule, redistributing in the house, voter suppression around the voter ID crap and a host of other attempts to attack the political opposition core support.

This is a direct response to the slow lingering death of the GOP as it chokes on the pill of its own extremism.

O.K., let's deal with it for what it is.  The legislature of a traditionally democratic, heavily unionized state was so desperate to stop job losses that it felt itself forced to take the radical (for Michigan) step of voting in Right to Work.  As I stated, I'm union, but I'm disgusted by those idiotic thugs in Lansing.

Just look at Detroit.  I rest my case.

Oh please, are you really so naive to believe that GOP spin? Its entirely political
(not motivated to stop job losses) in the same way GOP efforts to make changes in voter ID
laws or decrease the number of hours to vote to decrease the number of Democratic voters
voting or redistricting by the GOP to keep the number of Republicans in the house as stable
as possible(this year Republicans had a huge huge advantage over Democrats when it came to
redistricting ). All those examples serve the same purpose as going after the unions which is
to increase the Republican chances of winning by finding a way to go weaken(in the long run)
the Democrats most reliable constituency the Unions

The Detroit Free Press has it totally correct(and they endorsed Governor Synder)


In short, we trusted Snyder’s judgment.

That trust has now been betrayed — for us, and for the hundreds of thousand of independents
who voted for Snyder with the conviction that they were electing someone more independent,
and more visionary, than partisan apparatchiks like Wisconsin’s Scott Walker or Florida’s
Rick Scott.

Last week, in an abrupt about-face Snyder’s defenders said was born of his frustration with
organized labor, the governor unleashed a legislative blitzkrieg that seems certain to bring
a bill barring closed-shop contracts to his desk next week.

He has already promised to sign it.

Watching Snyder explain his right-to-work reversal was disturbing on several levels.

His insistence that the legislation was designed to promote the interests of unionized
workers and “bring Michiganders together” was grotesquely disingenuous; even as he spoke,
security personnel were locking down the capital in anticipation of protests by angry
unionists.

Snyder’s ostensible rationale for embracing right-to-work legislation — it was, he insisted,
a matter of preserving workers’ freedom of association — was equally dishonest.

The real motive of Michigan’s right-to-work champions, as former GOP legislator Bill
Ballenger ruefully observed, is “pure greed” — the determination to emasculate, once and
for all, the Democratic Party’s most reliable source of financial and organizational support.



http://www.freep.com/article....|p


--------------
politics is the art of taking advantage of mass stupidity and ignorance
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 28
Dennis The Menace Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 10041
Joined: Apr. 2007
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 2:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

More from that editorial from the Detroit Free Press(again they endorsed Governor Synder
in 2010)


It's all about politics

Like the failed labor initiative it seeks to avenge, Snyder's right-to-work legislation is
an attempt to institutionalize Republicans' current political advantage. Everything else is
window dressing, and most of these diversionary talking points are demonstrably false.

The argument that right-to-work status makes states more competitive or prosperous is refuted
by a mountain of evidence that shows right-to-work states trailing their union-friendly
counterparts in key metrics like per capita wealth, poverty rates and health insurance
coverage.

Snyder's contention that workers' First Amendment rights are compromised when a union they
have freely elected to bargain on their behalf proposes a contract making union dues
compulsory is equally specious. Employees are always free to reject such a contract or
decertify the union that negotiated it, just as stockholders can force the ouster of
corporate managers they deem unresponsive to their needs.

Snyder has long acknowledged that steamrolling right-to-work legislation through the
Legislature would have enduring negative consequences for productive collaboration between
workers and employees. His decision to embrace such legislation now destroys, in an eye
blink, the trusting relationship he and his business allies have struggled to establish.

It also yokes a governor who once aspired to be seen as a new kind of Republican with the
most ideological, backward-looking elements of that party -- the very people whose
exclusionary vision of the country's future was rejected by voters in last month's
election.


http://www.freep.com/article....|p


--------------
politics is the art of taking advantage of mass stupidity and ignorance
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 29
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6322
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 7:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 11 2012, 11:14 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Dec. 11 2012, 9:04 pm)
QUOTE
Productivity has steadily been going up along with corporate profits, while wages are stagnant or declining. Undermining the capability of workers to collectively bargain is, more than anything else, an effort by corporate owners to funnel more of the profits into the pockets of the major shareholders (aka greed).

The same "conservatives" who undermine unions and tell low income workers to "better themselves" through education want to cut funding for student loans and are doing their best to make teaching a less desirable profession. Many college graduates can't find the jobs they were trained for in an economy brought to its knees by the conservative principle of deregulation.

So-called "right to work" laws and rhetoric in that context about making Americans "more competitive" are talking points issued by the ownership class through the politicians they've purchased.

This is not intended to help the American worker. It's intended to further enrich a small handful at the top.

I really don't want to frame this into yet another tiresome left vs. right or conservatives vs. liberal tirade.

Reality calls for measuring productivity against our competitors as well -- which you made no mention thereof.  Sure, maybe our textile workers can produce more for similar wages thanks to better machines.  But when China or India trains a peasant to operate a similar machine -- whose productivity has risen more?

Workers have been blaming owners for a couple of centuries now.  First it was housing people in cheap mills rather than letting skilled artisans do their thing at home.  Then they were blamed for replacing people with machines.  Now, it's fashionable to blame the Chinese.

Nothing's changed.  The same factors in economics are still at work.  And just how did the United States manage to lose so many jobs and still grow richer?  By inventing entirely new industries and entirely new professional jobs!  Join them.  Or not.

Time to move Americans away from being just "lower or middling skilled" workers -- desperately trying to fend off the Chinese and such.  Americans deserve better -- and can achieve so much more.

You say that nothing has changed, and in some respects that's correct. It's not "left vs right." It's the age-old struggle between labor and capital. You acknowledge the hard-fought gains that elevated the working & middle classes in this country -- gains achieved by unions. Now you think unions are useless, but you are wrong. The pendulum can swing back the other way. It's already begun.

This is about the top few percent skimming a larger share of profits off the top. Always has been. Nothing has changed. The growing disparity in wealth is taking us back to the gilded age when the Vanderbilts lived in a palace like the Biltmore Estate (gorgeous mansion in the mountains of North Carolina, but truly obscene) and the tens of thousands who helped generate that wealth worked for subsistence wages. Higher education was a pipe dream for the children of those workers -- it was simply out of their reach. Until they organized into unions, demanded better wages & working conditions, and thereby expanded the American middle class.

It isn't a matter of moving American workers out of manufacturing & service industries and into highly skilled lucrative careers. Those who can are already striving for that, but career opportunities are limited. And not everyone has the capability to be a nerd at Apple. Are you suggesting that all manufacturing, labor & service jobs can disappear and be replaced in this country with highly skilled lucrative careers? If so, you're living in a fantasy world. If not, you're advocating a lower standard of living for tens of millions of working families who, as a result, will find it even more difficult to afford a higher eductaion for their children. The trend will be away from what you envision, not towards it.

Yes, Americans deserve better ... than these "right to work" laws that will lower their standard of living and their opportunities for advancement.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 30
BillBab Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 5107
Joined: Sep. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 12 2012, 7:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 11 2012, 6:09 pm)
QUOTE
Unions existed for a reason.  Amazing, but some of the stuff we take for granted today -- 8 hours work or else overtime... even the right to get a paycheck at regular intervals -- were hard won for us by unions!!

But IMO, the vast majority of us have already been ingrained with notions of fair play and treatment, safe workplace, etc. -- and just as importantly, we now have much better laws that are enforced -- and unions today are much more hindrance than help!

So, a big thank you, unions, but yeah, except for maybe farm unions, I say 'good riddance' to state employee unions, airline pilots unions, teachers unions, teamsters, et al.

Could not agree more

--------------
"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."

Thomas Sowell
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
86 replies since Dec. 11 2012, 6:02 pm < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


Page 1 of 3123>>
reply to topic new topic new poll

» Quick Reply Our newest right to work state
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code



Get 2 FREE Trial Issues and 3 FREE GIFTS
Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
The Best Trails in America
YES! Please send me my FREE trial issues of Backpacker
and my 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Full Name:
City:
Address 1:
Zip Code:
State:
Address 2:
Email (required):
Free trial offer valid for US subscribers only. Canadian subscriptions | International subscriptions