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Topic: A Lesson in Showing Tolerance?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 3:15 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No society is perfect -- and no, I am not about to switch allegiance from USA to Malaysia.  But oftentimes, we see things in others that may be beneficial for us to reflect upon.

Last year, I traveled to Malaysia and saw this government billboard.  Most Malays are Muslims.  And yet, nobody was offended at all (I couldn't read Malay but I did follow the local English language paper).  No editorials.  No irate feedback from readers.  Just good cheer.

What does it say about tolerance in our own society?  I cannot fathom President and Mrs. Obama (or even our liberal California governor and his wife) doing a billboard publicly wishing one and all a happy [put your favorite Muslim or Jewish festivity here] -- without a howl of protests -- even if privately sponsored!



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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 3:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"What does it say about tolerance in our own society?"

What does a sign last year in Malaysia say about our own society?

Nothing, zero, zilch.

Hope that helps clear your confusion.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 3:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I see enough Christmas crap around here to know that we are tolerant of that kind of rubbish.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Every year the President issues messages commemorating Eid and Ramadan and Diwali and Passover and other religious observances.  (Nor is this exclusive to Obama; it's a presidential tradition going back at least to Reagan, IIRC.)  It's not a billboard, but it is semi-official recognition of the pluralistic nature of American society.

And sure, the know-nothing blowhards at Fox et al. do try to whip up xenophobic resentment.  I expect there are Muslims in Malaysia who feel comparably, only maybe they don't have their own cable network.

(By the way, I think you meant imagine rather than fathom.)


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:11 pm)
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Every year the President issues messages commemorating Eid and Ramadan and Diwali and Passover and other religious observances.  (Nor is this exclusive to Obama; it's a presidential tradition going back at least to Reagan, IIRC.)  It's not a billboard, but it is semi-official recognition of the pluralistic nature of American society.

And sure, the know-nothing blowhards at Fox et al. do try to whip up xenophobic resentment.  I expect there are Muslims in Malaysia who feel comparably, only maybe they don't have their own cable network.

(By the way, I think you meant imagine rather than fathom.)

Acknowledged.  But I don't see billboards though.  Nothing approach that kind of openness.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 18 2012, 12:52 pm)
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"What does it say about tolerance in our own society?"

What does a sign last year in Malaysia say about our own society?

Nothing, zero, zilch.

Hope that helps clear your confusion.

A society that so loves to lecture others get so butt hurt when its own shortcomings are talked about?  Precious.   :;):

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:11 pm)
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...only maybe they don't have their own cable network.

You'd be surprised the stuff they have if you bothered to fact check.  :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I like the pagan outreach of all that evergreen foliage draped around the WhiteHouse.

Hailing the return of the Sun!

The old traditions are the best! Like they used to say about David Brower: worship trees, sacrifice people.

ETA: ENCOUNTERS WITH THE ARCHDRUID
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:26 pm)
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I like the pagan outreach of all that evergreen foliage draped around the WhiteHouse.

Hailing the return of the Sun!

The old traditions are the best! Like they used to say about David Brower: worship trees, sacrifice people.

Yah, but do they dare include verbiage to commemorate same?  And most importantly, what kind of reaction do you think the WH will get?  T's what I mean by tolerance -- or rather intolerance  in our case.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The president shows intolerance by pardoning a turkey every year for thanksgiving holiday.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Marmotstew @ Dec. 18 2012, 4:38 pm)
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The president shows intolerance by pardoning a turkey every year for thanksgiving holiday.

Yeah, but he only pardons the unionized turkeys that contribute to his campaign.  :cool:

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:22 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 18 2012, 12:52 pm)
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"What does it say about tolerance in our own society?"

What does a sign last year in Malaysia say about our own society?

Nothing, zero, zilch.

Hope that helps clear your confusion.

A society that so loves to lecture others get so butt hurt when its own shortcomings are talked about?  Precious.   :;):

HSF is a society now?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think he is actually pretty representative.  My own feel is that his response is quite typical.  We don't take well to being compared with others.  We generally see ourselves as exceptional.   Which is also why we are also pretty darn vocal about the need for the rest of the world to step up.  :;):

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 4:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:51 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:22 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 18 2012, 12:52 pm)
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"What does it say about tolerance in our own society?"

What does a sign last year in Malaysia say about our own society?

Nothing, zero, zilch.

Hope that helps clear your confusion.

A society that so loves to lecture others get so butt hurt when its own shortcomings are talked about?  Precious.   :;):

HSF is a society now?

Hush, you.  Stereotypes are okay when talking about US citizens.  Only the people of other countries must be talked about thoughtfully, as a heterogeneous collection of citizens who embrace a variety of thoughts and viewpoints.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:59 pm)
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(hbfa @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:51 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:22 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 18 2012, 12:52 pm)
QUOTE
"What does it say about tolerance in our own society?"

What does a sign last year in Malaysia say about our own society?

Nothing, zero, zilch.

Hope that helps clear your confusion.

A society that so loves to lecture others get so butt hurt when its own shortcomings are talked about?  Precious.   :;):

HSF is a society now?

Only the people of other countries must be talked about thoughtfully, as a heterogeneous collection of citizens who embrace a variety of thoughts and viewpoints.

Wish that were really our problem!!  Unfortunately getting defensive changes nothing. Typical though.  :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:25 pm)
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(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:11 pm)
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...only maybe they don't have their own cable network.

You'd be surprised the stuff they have if you bothered to fact check.  :;):

Well, that was based on your representation that "nobody was offended at all".  (Note also the word "maybe", acknowledging that I don't have enough info to be certain.)  If that's not the case, then I (and you) stand corrected.

ETA: On second thought, it occurs to me that you may have misread "they" to mean Malaysia rather than specifically "Muslims...who feel comparably" (i.e., any (presumably fundamentalist) Muslims who are offended by that billboard, the way Fox et al. are "offended" by expressions of non-Christian religious sentiment).  In which case, I'll just note that that's a misreading.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 3:01 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:59 pm)
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(hbfa @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:51 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:22 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 18 2012, 12:52 pm)
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"What does it say about tolerance in our own society?"

What does a sign last year in Malaysia say about our own society?

Nothing, zero, zilch.

Hope that helps clear your confusion.

A society that so loves to lecture others get so butt hurt when its own shortcomings are talked about?  Precious.   :;):

HSF is a society now?

Only the people of other countries must be talked about thoughtfully, as a heterogeneous collection of citizens who embrace a variety of thoughts and viewpoints.

Wish that were really our problem!!  Unfortunately getting defensive changes nothing. Typical though.  :;):

Touchè.  Irony is funny.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:05 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:25 pm)
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(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:11 pm)
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...only maybe they don't have their own cable network.

You'd be surprised the stuff they have if you bothered to fact check.  :;):

Well, that was based on your representation that "nobody was offended at all".  (Note also the word "maybe", acknowledging that I don't have enough info to be certain.)  If that's not the case, then I (and you) stand corrected.

More defensiveness.

When talking about an entire society, it's obvious that terms such as "all" and "none" are more figures of speech to denote a great majority -- this direction or that.  We all know about extremists... they are "all" that's ever talked about.

Nice to skim the big picture that puts us in a petty light -- and go on the attack over vocabulary obfuscation instead.

Yes Ben, before we even talk about tolerance or anything else that matters, let's focus on "nobody".

Finally, that folks like you could still picture Malaysia -- a country that makes a lot of the semiconductors that go into the supposedly "Made in China" iPhones and PC's -- as a country without cable -- show just how provincial so many of us Americans still are.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:20 pm)
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(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:11 pm)
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Every year the President issues messages commemorating Eid and Ramadan and Diwali and Passover and other religious observances.  (Nor is this exclusive to Obama; it's a presidential tradition going back at least to Reagan, IIRC.)  It's not a billboard, but it is semi-official recognition of the pluralistic nature of American society.

And sure, the know-nothing blowhards at Fox et al. do try to whip up xenophobic resentment.  I expect there are Muslims in Malaysia who feel comparably, only maybe they don't have their own cable network.

(By the way, I think you meant imagine rather than fathom.)

Acknowledged.  But I don't see billboards though.  Nothing approach that kind of openness.

Well, they're out there on the Stevens Tubes where anybody can watch and/or read them.  So maybe "openness" isn't the word you really meant to use there.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:55 pm)
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I think he is actually pretty representative.  My own feel is that his response is quite typical.  We don't take well to being compared with others.  We generally see ourselves as exceptional.   Which is also why we are also pretty darn vocal about the need for the rest of the world to step up.  :;):

Ben, I think you hear what you want to hear, and see what you want to see.

But I suppose we all do to some degree.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:14 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:20 pm)
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(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:11 pm)
QUOTE
Every year the President issues messages commemorating Eid and Ramadan and Diwali and Passover and other religious observances.  (Nor is this exclusive to Obama; it's a presidential tradition going back at least to Reagan, IIRC.)  It's not a billboard, but it is semi-official recognition of the pluralistic nature of American society.

And sure, the know-nothing blowhards at Fox et al. do try to whip up xenophobic resentment.  I expect there are Muslims in Malaysia who feel comparably, only maybe they don't have their own cable network.

(By the way, I think you meant imagine rather than fathom.)

Acknowledged.  But I don't see billboards though.  Nothing approach that kind of openness.

Well, they're out there on the Stevens Tubes where anybody can watch and/or read them.  So maybe "openness" isn't the word you really meant to use there.

Whatever tube on the internet -- it's us who have to actively 'tune in' -- individually -- to see or hear the message.

The billboard -- is our government -- representing our entire society -- reaching out to all of us with well wishes.  And wow, with no one offended either!!

Vive la difference.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:10 pm)
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Finally, that folks like you could still picture Malaysia -- a country that makes a lot of the semiconductors that go into the supposedly "Made in China" iPhones and PC's -- as a country without cable -- show just how provincial so many of us Americans still are.

Looks like my speculation was corrrect, and you did in fact misread my comment (see Post #16, at ETA).

Just so there's no room for misunderstanding, I'll clarify further: I was talking about a Malaysian Islamist (rough) equivalent of Fox and the rest of the xenophobic chorus here at home.  

Finally, as you know if you've been paying attention (and part of your problem is that often you don't), I (and HSF for that matter) have never hesitated to highlight and call out various kinds of intolerance here in the United States.  I took (very mild) issue with your OP not because I'm being "defensive" about the US but because it's not a particularly effective way to illustrate your point.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:16 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:55 pm)
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I think he is actually pretty representative.  My own feel is that his response is quite typical.  We don't take well to being compared with others.  We generally see ourselves as exceptional.   Which is also why we are also pretty darn vocal about the need for the rest of the world to step up.  :;):

Ben, I think you hear what you want to hear, and see what you want to see.

But I suppose we all do to some degree.

Subjective to some degree, for sure!

But reading our media, you don't think there is also an objective and easily discernible difference?  How often have you read in our papers about China needing to observe human rights (as we defined although not necessarily follow)?  And if you read English language foreign papers -- how often do you think the Iranian or Chinese governments are telling America that it needs to become a theocracy or socialist society because... ?

So no, it's not just an issue of subjectivity.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:22 pm)
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Just so there's no room for misunderstanding, I'll clarify further: I was talking about a Malaysian Islamist (rough) equivalent of Fox and the rest of the xenophobic chorus here at home.  

I took (very mild) issue with your OP not because I'm being "defensive" about the US but because it's not a particularly effective way to illustrate your point.

So instead of acknowledging a positive shown to you about another society -- your knee jerk reaction is to go clawing for their worst and most extreme to use as defense?

BTW, the suboptimal way of comparing different societies -- and using what works for one to shame another -- is far too often used by our government and our media!  Food for thought.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:24 pm)
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So no, it's not just an issue of subjectivity.

Maybe not JUST an issue of subjectivity on your part,
but clearly not just objectivity either.

You have a history here of condescension towards the US,
and towards those who don't share your view of the US.  Hardly an example of tolerance.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:34 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:24 pm)
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So no, it's not just an issue of subjectivity.

Maybe not JUST an issue of subjectivity on your part,
but clearly not just objectivity either.

You have a history here of condescension towards the US,
and towards those who don't share your view of the US.  Hardly an example of tolerance.

Umm... didn't I already acknowledged the subjectivity part above?   :;):

As for my attitude toward my own country... I'll sum it up in two phrases:

1.  No country is perfect.  My country has its faults.  But I think it is also obvious that my country has many more positive attributes -- and have lent a helping hand -- wherever disasters strike -- as often as anyone else -- if not more.

2.  But my country is one that is always lecturing others.  And that makes my country the bigger hypocrite.

This has nothing to do with tolerance or intolerance.  It has everything to do with expectation and hope.

But back to topic -- the reasons I started this -- are to show ourselves that we are not as tolerant as we fancy ourselves to be -- and other societies -- even the ones we so love (collectively) to demonize -- are not as intolerant as we imagine.  Indeed, there are things to learn from everyone -- if we can ever humble ourselves...


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 5:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:42 pm)
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My country has its faults.  But I think it is also obvious that my country has many more positive attributes -- and have lent a helping hand -- wherever disasters strike -- as often as anyone else -- if not more.

"But I think it is also obvious that my country has many more positive attributes"

I would agree with you there.  And I'm surprised, (pleasantly) to see you write that.  In the past you've seemed to repeatedly dwell on the negatives while rarely acknowledging the positives.
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(hbfa @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:52 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:42 pm)
QUOTE
My country has its faults.  But I think it is also obvious that my country has many more positive attributes -- and have lent a helping hand -- wherever disasters strike -- as often as anyone else -- if not more.

"But I think it is also obvious that my country has many more positive attributes"

I would agree with you there.  And I'm surprised, (pleasantly) to see you write that.  In the past you've seemed to repeatedly dwell on the negatives while rarely acknowledging the positives.

I have written positive stuff about my country.  But I will acknowledge having written about the negatives more.  Why?

1.  Subjectively -- we often have higher expectations of ourselves.  And thus we are often our own most demanding critics.

2.  Objectively -- seriously, who here would ever tolerate another country (China?) sending drones here to kill their enemies -- and then to just say "sorry, didn't mean it, take some money" -- when they kill our children instead?  And that's just one example of our arrogance.

3.  Objectively -- how can one not be disappointed at a country that accuses and lectures China and Russia for dealing with unsavory characters (e.g. Sudan) -- and then jumps in bed with Saudi Arabia -- and formerly with the dictators of Egypt and Syria and Zaire and the Shah of Iran and Suharto of Indonesia, and...  you get the idea?

That we are the most powerful nation on Earth because we borrow enough to outspend the next 17 highest spenders combined -- impresses me not at all.  I am always impressed when I read about my America sending aid to pretty much anyone and everyone whenever a disaster strikes!  I have posted about that a couple of times.

So either we walk our talk -- or if that's actually impractical -- then to lower our voice and talk less.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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High_Sierra_Fan Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 6:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 1:22 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 18 2012, 12:52 pm)
QUOTE
"What does it say about tolerance in our own society?"

What does a sign last year in Malaysia say about our own society?

Nothing, zero, zilch.

Hope that helps clear your confusion.

A society that so loves to lecture others get so butt hurt when its own shortcomings are talked about?  Precious.   :;):

There are no shortcomings discussed on that Malaysian sign are there? And, I'm rather confident, no mention of the United States at all as what would be the point? Heck the Christmas tree is a British adaptation of a German continuance of a pagan midwinter solstice tradition: not related to the United States at all.

Reading everything under the sun as related to the United States just seems, oh I don't know, maybe the least bit chauvinistic and arrogant?

You might want to work on that.

Or not.

:)

ETA. Nice Gollum homage. Did you see the new one in 2D, 3D, IMAX 3D or IMAX 3D HFR?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 18 2012, 6:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:33 pm)
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(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 18 2012, 2:22 pm)
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Just so there's no room for misunderstanding, I'll clarify further: I was talking about a Malaysian Islamist (rough) equivalent of Fox and the rest of the xenophobic chorus here at home.  

I took (very mild) issue with your OP not because I'm being "defensive" about the US but because it's not a particularly effective way to illustrate your point.

So instead of acknowledging a positive shown to you about another society -- your knee jerk reaction is to go clawing for their worst and most extreme to use as defense?

BTW, the suboptimal way of comparing different societies -- and using what works for one to shame another -- is far too often used by our government and our media!  Food for thought.

Ohferfckssake...

Look, Ben: if you don't understand what I'm saying why don't you just ask me?  That might be more productive than going off on your own speculative interpretation of what you think I might be saying.  

Jesus.


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