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nogods 
Group: Members
Posts: 5408
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 5:51 pm |
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Whether you want to make all guns unlawful tomorrow, or make all guns lawful tomorrow, no one else has offered a better solution to protect our school children today.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."
What part of that statement isn't true in the immediate future? Today, tomorrow, next week, over the nest few months, the next few years.
Does anyone think that if all guns were made illegal tomorrow that our schools would suddenly become safe from domestic terrorists? If so, I don't think you are sane enough to be involved in the national discussion we need to have to address these issues.
We can search for ways to reduce gun violence over the long run, but in the meantime, right here, right now, no one else has offered a realistic way of our children in our schools.
so do you oppose armed guards in our schools solely because it has been proposed by the NRA?
When our school children go on a field trip to a courthouse they see an institution full of adults well protected by arms.
Why aren't we protecting our children as much as we protect our judges and court clerks? Are our children not as worthy?
QUOTE We care about our money, so we protect our banks with armed guards. American airports, office buildings, power plants, courthouses — even sports stadiums — are all protected by armed security.
We care about the President, so we protect him with armed Secret Service agents. Members of Congress work in offices surrounded by armed Capitol Police officers.
Yet when it comes to the most beloved, innocent and vulnerable members of the American family — our children — we as a society leave them utterly defenseless, and the monsters and predators of this world know it and exploit it.
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hbfa
Group: Members
Posts: 7068
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 5:55 pm |
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My kid's school has an armed guard.
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cweston
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Posts: 1394
Joined: Mar. 2009
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 6:03 pm |
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I'm not opposed to armed guards--as long as they are properly trained. It's no small thing to handle a firearm in an extreme situation with hundreds of children present and make sure you shoot the bad guy and don't shoot the bystanders.
This is why I disagree that we are safer when more and more random people are armed. We are safer when people who know what they are doing are armed and people who don't are not, IMHO.
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Gabby
Group: Members
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:25 pm |
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So, will the "armed guards" be given psychological testing?
If not, they could be shooters, or potential shooters.
So, will the "armed guards" wear body armor?
The shooters now apparently do. I wouldn’t want to be in a duel with someone wearing body armor.
So, will the “armed guards” check id on every student, teacher and staff member at the school?
If not, a real or “pretend” student or teacher or clerk or janitor could be a “successful” shooter.
So, will the “armed guards” be positioned out of view, or will they also be required to stand at the front door and check id?
If their duties are doubled (as in the above), will it mean they’ll be in “known positions” and available for attack without warning from a distance?
Or distracted by other duties while a potential shooter waits in line for an opportunity to kill them?
OTOH, if they aren’t the ones checking id, who vets the checker?
(They could be shooters. See the first question above.)
So, will the “armed guards” be on duty 24/7?
If not, a shooter could simply “bypass the system” and manage to get inside before regular school hours.
(See question #6 below: "Alarm system".)
So, will the “armed guards” have prior notice of an attack?
The shooters will know when and where they’ll attack. If the shooters know how many guards there are and where they are, they’ll have the advantage in all cases. It’s either that, or create and install a very, very sophisticated alarm system and buildings which are impregnable to “breaking and entering”.
So, will the "armed guards" be humans?
The shooters apparently are, and many plan in advance for their rampages - why wouldn't "apply for armed school guard" be on their agenda in future cases?
Since they are humans, it’s still possible that any particular “armed guard” could “crack” and become a “shooter” him/herself.
So, will the "armed guards" ___?
(Supply your own shortcoming in this system. There is no single perfect system – all have failings.)
In short, though it’s better than doing absolutely nothing, like any other system you can think of (probably, outside of the completely armored Segways suggested above, a system I think is wonderful, however wonderfully expensive (though it's mostly just wonderfully imaginative and whimsical)), there are inherent problems and shortcomings.
The biggest advantage seems to be, as far as the NRA is concerned, that it means introducing more weapons into society instead of fewer. As far as I can tell, this seems to be the only goal of the NRA.
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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GottaGamble
Group: Members
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:35 pm |
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Gabby, valid points. No system is 100%, sad to say. Afew years ago here in NYC, 2 longtime detectives were arrested and convicted of being Mafia hit men. If im not mistaken, they were on the police force for 20 plus years.. Several months ago a NYC policeman was arrested cor conspiring to abduct women and torture them cook them and eat them! I believe we have even had military men snap and open fire in the barracks on our own men. No system is 100% flawless. However..it is a start and it is a plan worh trying and it is realistic and it can be implemented today.
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www.mybackpacking.blog.com
"A government big enough to give you everything
you want is strong enough to take everything you have."
Gerald Ford
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:38 pm |
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Thing is there no immediate solution to the problem they have worked hard to create.
Turns out there was officer on duty at Columbine. It appears he was out gunned and called for backup that was already on the way.
Whe. You look at the details of the idea, like Gabby has, it becomes clear its just an attempt to move the conversation away from any sort of attempt to tackles the real issues.
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| Post Number: 7
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:39 pm |
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You know the only real protection is a swat team in every school.
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| Post Number: 8
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hbfa
Group: Members
Posts: 7068
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:45 pm |
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The funny thing is, the ones calling for armed guards at every school today will be the same ones complaining tomorrow that they make too much and have pensions.
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| Post Number: 9
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GottaGamble
Group: Members
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Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:47 pm |
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lol...if you read the speech or listened to it...VOLUNTEER...hence..no pay
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www.mybackpacking.blog.com
"A government big enough to give you everything
you want is strong enough to take everything you have."
Gerald Ford
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GottaGamble
Group: Members
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Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:51 pm |
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obviously you didnt read or hear the speech...trained profesionals..retired police men or military veterans...TRAINED PROFESSIONALS!!!!!
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www.mybackpacking.blog.com
"A government big enough to give you everything
you want is strong enough to take everything you have."
Gerald Ford
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| Post Number: 12
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GottaGamble
Group: Members
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 7:52 pm |
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please read the transcript before you post more silly nonsense...it will take you less then 5 minutes...
http://home.nra.org/pdf/Transcript_PDF.pdf
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www.mybackpacking.blog.com
"A government big enough to give you everything
you want is strong enough to take everything you have."
Gerald Ford
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| Post Number: 13
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wwwest
Group: Members
Posts: 4056
Joined: Dec. 2002
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:00 pm |
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Here are some other "solutions" which are just as immediate as the NRA proposal, and which won't be rejected as an unfunded mandate on local government:
Let's do the list of things that can be done, starting the day after legislation passes, that would move us in the direction of making guns less deadly in the hands of a mass killer:
1. Ban all semi auto and auto guns from sale and possession by the general public. Rifle, shotgun, and handgun.
2. Ban possession and manufacture of all high capacity magazines, clips, drums or other creations to make a gun a many shooter. Put a firm limit like probably six on individual magazine capacity. That was good enough to "win" the west, neh? And it is certainly good enough for hunting. They have limit shotguns to three rounds for many decades now, haven't they?
3. Ban possession and manufacture of all hollow point, explosive, chemically loaded, teflon coated and other ammo designed to make killing people more efficient and certain.
4. Require registration of all firearms in the US, and licensing of every person owning or possessing a firearm, with education and testing for skill, knowledge and saftey, on the level of auto registration and licensing.
5. Invest heavily in research to create a high tech saftey that can be applied to all guns and will permit only the licensed owner to fire the weapon.
6. Offer a multi million dollar prize to any private individual who can develop such a high tech saftey.
7. Overhaul and fund our mental health system so that everyone exhibiting signs of anti-social, psychotic or overtly violent behavior, especially amoung young men, gets intense attention and treatment, and where necessary, institutionalization.
8. Improve the security on access to our schools, train all administrators in emergency actions to thwart a shooter, and provide every classroom with a bullet proof shield that could harbor the children for a short period of time. Would need to be light and flexible.
There is a start of things that could be done.
I am sure that other people can think of many more, perhaps much better, actions to take to make guns less deadly in the hands of mass killer. We are a very inventive species, after all.
The NRA should be the one putting up the prize for creating a high tech saftey.
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| Post Number: 14
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Land Rover
Group: Members
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Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:00 pm |
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I imagine the gun industry that will be happiest about this. That is after all who the NRA lowlifes represent.
Anyhow, what are there, according to google, around 100,000 public schools in America. So what, two or three per school to do the job properly, account for turnover, training, sickness, personal days.
740k law enforcement officers.
So,lets,say 250,000 NRA warriors and resources. So we just need to set up an institution that's a third as big against as all existing sworn in law enforcement officers.
So building an armed force of a,larger scale than most of the armies in most of the world. Twice as big as the British army - all so they can keep using their toys.
Big government gone crazy.
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| Post Number: 15
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hbfa
Group: Members
Posts: 7068
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:00 pm |
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American airports, office buildings, power plants, courthouses — even sports stadiums — are all protected by PROFESSIONAL armed security.
But our kids get volunteers? I don't see this as a job for volunteers, regardless of what they've allegedly done in their previous carreers. Some 18 y/o spends 4 years under the direct supervision of military officers and now we turn him loose on a school campus with a rifle as a volunteer?
Thanks, but no thanks.
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| Post Number: 16
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:03 pm |
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So essentially the NRA want America to go to massive expense ofmsetting this up so its backers can sell you even more guns.
Just how naive are you?
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| Post Number: 17
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davela
Group: Members
Posts: 659
Joined: Dec. 2011
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:37 pm |
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who pays for all these guards?Raise our taxes?For the sake of guns?
This armed guard biz does nothing.Ok,so now we have safer schools but thats not a full deterent to a psycho who can just walk and waste the guard.Second,dtereed by the school guard, the psycho will just go shoot up the mall instead.You havent stopped the massacre just location.I dont want our country become a military zone with armed guards at the park,mall,supermarket.
the problem is guns not the school or park.Take away the guns and or clips and you dont have these massacres.We need to focus on the issue and the issue is the weapon.
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Protect Greater Canyonlands!
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.
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| Post Number: 18
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nogods
Group: Members
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:38 pm |
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(Gabby @ Dec. 21 2012, 7:25 pm)
QUOTE So, will the "armed guards" be given psychological testing?
If not, they could be shooters, or potential shooters.
So, will the "armed guards" wear body armor?
The shooters now apparently do. I wouldn’t want to be in a duel with someone wearing body armor.
So, will the “armed guards” check id on every student, teacher and staff member at the school?
If not, a real or “pretend” student or teacher or clerk or janitor could be a “successful” shooter.
So, will the “armed guards” be positioned out of view, or will they also be required to stand at the front door and check id?
If their duties are doubled (as in the above), will it mean they’ll be in “known positions” and available for attack without warning from a distance?
Or distracted by other duties while a potential shooter waits in line for an opportunity to kill them?
OTOH, if they aren’t the ones checking id, who vets the checker?
(They could be shooters. See the first question above.)
So, will the “armed guards” be on duty 24/7?
If not, a shooter could simply “bypass the system” and manage to get inside before regular school hours.
(See question #6 below: "Alarm system".)
So, will the “armed guards” have prior notice of an attack?
The shooters will know when and where they’ll attack. If the shooters know how many guards there are and where they are, they’ll have the advantage in all cases. It’s either that, or create and install a very, very sophisticated alarm system and buildings which are impregnable to “breaking and entering”.
So, will the "armed guards" be humans?
The shooters apparently are, and many plan in advance for their rampages - why wouldn't "apply for armed school guard" be on their agenda in future cases?
Since they are humans, it’s still possible that any particular “armed guard” could “crack” and become a “shooter” him/herself.
So, will the "armed guards" ___?
(Supply your own shortcoming in this system. There is no single perfect system – all have failings.)
In short, though it’s better than doing absolutely nothing, like any other system you can think of (probably, outside of the completely armored Segways suggested above, a system I think is wonderful, however wonderfully expensive (though it's mostly just wonderfully imaginative and whimsical)), there are inherent problems and shortcomings.
The biggest advantage seems to be, as far as the NRA is concerned, that it means introducing more weapons into society instead of fewer. As far as I can tell, this seems to be the only goal of the NRA.
all good reasons to remove armed guards from courthouses, banks, federal buildings, military bases, and anything else we value more than our children.
The simple question is "are schools safer to day than they were 2 weeks ago?"
Absent some immediate change the answer is no.
so let's not have armed guards in the schools, let's just the let the slaughters continue while we search for some long term solution.
works for the crazy people. Doesn't work all that well for the kids.
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:43 pm |
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So we get get to add the changes we make to the school lives of every child in America to the cost paid in children's lives for you freedom to have access to this kind of assault rifle.
That you take the deranged ramblings of that clearly disturbed man as a serious solution says a lot about you Nogods.
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 8:52 pm |
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No. I want to make it more difficult for lunatics to arm themselves to the teeth.
I don't want a fanciful unworkable solution which basically just involves selling more guns.
It's a joke solution. If there were a lot of dead children because of the work of the NRA then it would be laugh-out-loud funny.
If you could incorporate a force of regular highly trained policy officers that's one thing, but this home guard solution of wannabe heroes. But then you the cost of basically add 40-50% to the numbers of our law enforcement officers.
As it is it plays into the fantasy world of many gun owners where they are the hero good guy with the gun.
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| Post Number: 26
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 10:10 pm |
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(nogods @ Dec. 21 2012, 9:09 pm)
QUOTE
(Land Rover @ Dec. 21 2012, 8:52 pm)
QUOTE No. I want to make it more difficult for lunatics to arm themselves to the teeth.
I don't want a fanciful unworkable solution which basically just involves selling more guns.
It's a joke solution. If there were a lot of dead children because of the work of the NRA then it would be laugh-out-loud funny.
If you could incorporate a force of regular highly trained policy officers that's one thing, but this home guard solution of wannabe heroes. But then you the cost of basically add 40-50% to the numbers of our law enforcement officers.
As it is it plays into the fantasy world of many gun owners where they are the hero good guy with the gun. All your rants offer are a continuation of the same olfd same old. One thing the NRA proposal has done - it has exposed those who don't care about the safety of school children and only care about using the incidents for their anti-gun campaign.
That's because the fundamental reality of the direct link between your freedom to own these guns and the deaths of these children doesn't go away if you stick your fingers in your ear and pretend it doesn't.
Same ole same old dead kids huh.
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| Post Number: 28
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nogods
Group: Members
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 10:29 pm |
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(Land Rover @ Dec. 21 2012, 10:10 pm)
QUOTE
(nogods @ Dec. 21 2012, 9:09 pm)
QUOTE
(Land Rover @ Dec. 21 2012, 8:52 pm)
QUOTE No. I want to make it more difficult for lunatics to arm themselves to the teeth.
I don't want a fanciful unworkable solution which basically just involves selling more guns.
It's a joke solution. If there were a lot of dead children because of the work of the NRA then it would be laugh-out-loud funny.
If you could incorporate a force of regular highly trained policy officers that's one thing, but this home guard solution of wannabe heroes. But then you the cost of basically add 40-50% to the numbers of our law enforcement officers.
As it is it plays into the fantasy world of many gun owners where they are the hero good guy with the gun. All your rants offer are a continuation of the same olfd same old. One thing the NRA proposal has done - it has exposed those who don't care about the safety of school children and only care about using the incidents for their anti-gun campaign. That's because the fundamental reality of the direct link between your freedom to own these guns and the deaths of these children doesn't go away if you stick your fingers in your ear and pretend it doesn't. Same ole same old dead kids huh.
Still no solution from you. Just noise. What's your plan for tomorrow? Nada.
The NRA has put forth a put forth a plan that protects children immediately.
All you do is say we can afford to sacrifice their safety while we argue about the "big picture."
Small caskets, big picture. That's all you offer.
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| Post Number: 29
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 10:34 pm |
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It's a start. But didn't Lanza shoot his way through through the security system at Sandy Hook?
And again how many would you need to protect a large high school? There was an armed officer at columbine who couldn't stop it.
But again, - even if it is worked out and funded as a viable security step run by full time police officers, it doesn't remove the need for a degree of changes in our gun laws.
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| Post Number: 30
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BillBab
Group: Members
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sep. 2008
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Posted on: Dec. 21 2012, 10:34 pm |
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You spend your money on what is important to you....for several here schoolchildren are not very important.
As for those that want to live in a world of rainbows and unicorns where nobody fights back because someone might get hurt accidently...maybe you should be trying to disarm the NYPD
http://abcnews.go.com/US....7078377
Hard to imagine any reasonably well trained civillian doing any worse
Even if WW could magically remove all weapons from the country....because the criminals are going to immediately surrender all their guns....bad people will still do bad stuff....and if they are smart, they will do it where they have the best chance of not meeting armed resistance
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"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."
Thomas Sowell
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