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Topic: Gunman Sets Trap, Shoots Firemen< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 1:07 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A gunman set a trap and shot and killed two firefighters responding to an early morning blaze in Webster, N.Y. Two other first responders were serious condition, police officials said.

The apparent gunman was found dead in an area outside the scene, but it’s unclear if he was killed with a self-inflicted gunshot or if it was from a weapon from a police officer who was chasing him.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs....23.html

What the hell is wrong with people?

I suppose the NRA will suggest firemen should carry now, too.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The NRA suggests that EVERYONE should carry, and own multiple guns, right down to school kids.

The only way to be safe is to have a gun at the ready, at all times, if you buy into their paranoid clap trap.

I'm afraid it is going to get worse before it gets better.

Gotta keep those gun sales up, full employment for gun makers and sellers.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 1:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 24 2012, 10:07 am)
QUOTE
What the hell is wrong with people?

I suppose the NRA will suggest firemen should carry now, too.

Fortunately this is an extremely rare occurrence.

There are those who have suggested firefighters should be armed in the past.  It is the fact that we are not armed that helps us stay out of conflicts with citizens.  

We deal with unbalanced and sometimes violent people on a fairly regular basis.  If they knew we were armed the situation would drastically change for us.  As a veteran of over thirty years in the fire service, I can say without hesitation that arming firefighters would be a mistake, and virtually every one of my many coworkers would agree.

My thoughts go out to the ones who were shot, their families and their fellow firefighters.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 1:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 24 2012, 1:07 pm)
QUOTE
A gunman set a trap and shot and killed two firefighters responding to an early morning blaze in Webster, N.Y. Two other first responders were serious condition, police officials said.

The apparent gunman was found dead in an area outside the scene, but it’s unclear if he was killed with a self-inflicted gunshot or if it was from a weapon from a police officer who was chasing him.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs....23.html

What the hell is wrong with people?

I suppose the NRA will suggest firemen should carry now, too.

A sniper on the top of every fire truck.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 1:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Dec. 24 2012, 1:25 pm)
QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 24 2012, 10:07 am)
QUOTE
What the hell is wrong with people?

I suppose the NRA will suggest firemen should carry now, too.

Fortunately this is an extremely rare occurrence.

There are those who have suggested firefighters should be armed in the past.  It is the fact that we are not armed that helps us stay out of armed conflicts with citizens.  

We deal with unbalanced and sometimes violent people on a fairly regular basis.  If they knew we were armed the situation would drastically change for us.  As a veteran of over thirty years in the fire service, I can say without hesitation that arming firefighters would be a mistake, and virtually every one of my many coworkers would agree.

My thoughts go out to the ones who were shot, their families and their fellow firefighters.

You wouldn't need to arm the firefighters themselves. There are packs of volunteers, like the ones on here, who will happily perch on top of the firetrucks AR-15s at the ready.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 1:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah, that would really cut down on the gun violence and random shootings!!

Reminds me of the story about the elk hunters near Forks, WA years ago who surrounded a trophy bull, made a complete circle, then shot the elk to doll ribbons, and also three of the hunters.  LOL


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 2:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have to wonder if this wasn't a fairly elaborate "suicide by cop"

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 2:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimInMD @ Dec. 24 2012, 11:13 am)
QUOTE
I have to wonder if this wasn't a fairly elaborate "suicide by cop"

Except suicide shouldn't involve taking other people's lives.  Cause we have a different word for that:  murder.  :(

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 2:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimInMD @ Dec. 24 2012, 11:13 am)
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I have to wonder if this wasn't a fairly elaborate "suicide by cop"

Or a firefighter reject with a grudge against that unit.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 3:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If only guns were illegal, then that nut would have just sat at home and watched some TV, because we all know that a person who is willing to violate the laws against murder would never violate a law against owning a firearm.

Wait...he was a felon....the law already prohibited him from owning a firearm.  

Damn, those guns prohibited laws just don't seem to be working, so lets try some more of them.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 4:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 24 2012, 3:24 pm)
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If only guns were illegal, then that nut would have just sat at home and watched some TV, because we all know that a person who is willing to violate the laws against murder would never violate a law against owning a firearm.

Wait...he was a felon....the law already prohibited him from owning a firearm.  

Damn, those guns prohibited laws just don't seem to be working, so lets try some more of them.

You seem to be having a different argument to everyone else Nogods. It's the one you have every answer for rather than the one you have absolutely no answer to - and are in fact pretending doesn't exist.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 5:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 24 2012, 12:24 pm)
QUOTE
Wait...he was a felon....the law already prohibited him from owning a firearm.  

Damn, those guns prohibited laws just don't seem to be working, so lets try some more of them.

And do you happen to know why that particular law doesn't work?
.
.
.
.
.
.
Okay, I'll tell you: because the private-sale ("gun show") loophole, which the NRA supports, makes it impossible to enforce.  And that NRA-backed policy has real-world consequences:
QUOTE
Not surprisingly, criminals exploit the private sales loophole. Data from a national survey of inmates indicated that nearly 80 percent of those who had used a handgun in a crime had acquired it through a transaction with an individual who was not a licensed gun dealer.

In other words, the NRA is fighting tirelessly for felons' access to firearms.

Is that something you support, nogods? Or do you support requiring background checks on private sales, as any sane person does?


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 6:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm not against closing the loophole.  

But he didn't get the rifle from the loophole.  

Oh, and the reason he is a felon?  He killed his grandmother 17 years ago - with a hammer.

So now we have to outlaw hammers too.

The club didn't kill Able.  Cain killed able.

Keep focusing on the weapon used instead of the user of the weapon and there will never be an end to the killing.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 6:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

My own hunch... the powerful NRA is like the erstwhile powerful Tobacco Institute (or whatever the tobacco lobby is called).

The Tobacco Institute in decades past could have  taken the lead to promoting responsible smoking.  But instead, it chose to be reactionary -- viewing any kind of restriction as an encroachment to its realm.  And over decades, public outcry rose to such a pitch that it simply overwhelmed the Institute.

The powerful NRA can  take the lead in a national quest for responsible gun ownership -- or it too can go the route of the Tobacco Institute.  Methinks it has already started on that route.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 7:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"The NRA suggests that EVERYONE should carry, and own multiple guns, right down to school kids."

No that is not right.
No guns for school kids.
The idea is to expose them to guns  so that they too will want one or ten when they grow up.

Waiters should have guns too.
"here is your meal and you better like it" says he fondling his gunl.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 7:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Dec. 24 2012, 1:29 pm)
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There are packs of volunteers, like the ones on here, who will happily perch on top of the firetrucks AR-15s at the ready.

but first ship them off to afghanistan for real-life experience training and see how their zeal vaporizes.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 7:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 24 2012, 3:09 pm)
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I'm not against closing the loophole.  

But he didn't get the rifle from the loophole.  

The article didn't specify where he got his rifle. Do you have a link to the source of your information?

And whether he got the rifle via a private sale or not, the point is plenty of (in fact, the overwhelming majority of) other violent criminals are getting their weaponry that way.

QUOTE
Oh, and the reason he is a felon?  He killed his grandmother 17 years ago - with a hammer.

So now we have to outlaw hammers too.

The club didn't kill Able.  Cain killed able.

Keep focusing on the weapon used instead of the user of the weapon and there will never be an end to the killing.

If he had attacked those firefighters with a hammer instead of a rifle, it's safe to say they wouldn't be dead now.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 8:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 24 2012, 7:49 pm)
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If he had attacked those firefighters with a hammer instead of a rifle, it's safe to say they wouldn't be dead now.

There you go again.

First, if guns were illegal, he still would have been able to obtain a gun.  The law  prohibiting him from having a gun didn't stop him from having a gun.

Oh wait, if guns were illegal, then like crack cocaine and heroine, every 16 year old kid wouldn't know how to get them within 24 hours of setting pout on a search for some.

He was already prohibited from owning a gun.

And he could have killed more firefighters by rigging up a simple propane tank bomb.  His use of firearm actually resulted in fewer deaths, not more.

He was intent on killing people.  Lack of firearm wasn't going to change him into Mr. rogers.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 8:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 24 2012, 3:24 pm)
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If only guns were illegal, then that nut would have just sat at home and watched some TV, because we all know that a person who is willing to violate the laws against murder would never violate a law against owning a firearm.

Nah, he probably would have run around in the street naked with a butcher knife. Crazy people do crazy things. The consequences are worse though when morons with a low sperm count provide them with ample opportunity to purchase assault weapons.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 8:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 24 2012, 8:24 pm)
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First, if guns were illegal, he still would have been able to obtain a gun.  

Of course. This is America.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 9:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 24 2012, 6:09 pm)
QUOTE
My own hunch... the powerful NRA is like the erstwhile powerful Tobacco Institute (or whatever the tobacco lobby is called).

The Tobacco Institute in decades past could have  taken the lead to promoting responsible smoking.  But instead, it chose to be reactionary -- viewing any kind of restriction as an encroachment to its realm.  And over decades, public outcry rose to such a pitch that it simply overwhelmed the Institute.

The powerful NRA can  take the lead in a national quest for responsible gun ownership -- or it too can go the route of the Tobacco Institute.  Methinks it has already started on that route.

Hi...


                               Good post, Ben2World...!!
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 10:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 24 2012, 5:24 pm)
QUOTE

(TehipiteTom @ Dec. 24 2012, 7:49 pm)
QUOTE
If he had attacked those firefighters with a hammer instead of a rifle, it's safe to say they wouldn't be dead now.

There you go again.

First, if guns were illegal, he still would have been able to obtain a gun.  The law  prohibiting him from having a gun didn't stop him from having a gun.

Oh wait, if guns were illegal, then like crack cocaine and heroine, every 16 year old kid wouldn't know how to get them within 24 hours of setting pout on a search for some.

He was already prohibited from owning a gun.

You're not paying attention. Allow me to explain once more: if background checks were required for private sales, it would be much more difficult for him (or any other violent criminal) to acquire firearms. The odds of him (or any violent criminal) getting a gun would not be reduced to zero...but the fact that no law about anything can ever be 100% effective is not an argument against all laws.

ETA: A study of Chicago's gun restrictions backs this up: the law didn't remove all guns from the street, but it did cause the price per (illegal) handgun to double, effectively making firearms unavailable to some potential criminals and much less cost-effective to others.

QUOTE
And he could have killed more firefighters by rigging up a simple propane tank bomb.  His use of firearm actually resulted in fewer deaths, not more.

In other words, we should make a concerted effort to get guns into the hands of violent criminals in order to save lives, by ensuring they don't use means of mayhem that cause even greater casualties.*

Is that your position?  Or do you acknowledge that the comment I quoted was, in fact, an incredibly stupid thing to say?  It has to be one or the other.




*Now, some people might say it isn't either/or; that people who are intent on harming a lot of people will in most cases add firearms to the mix rather than substituting.  In fact, now that I think of it, anyone who thinks about it for more than two seconds would say that.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 24 2012, 11:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There are well over 10,000 gun laws on the books, including mandatory prison sentences for use or possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime. There are also laws mandating prison terms for ex-cons/felons in simple possession of one. Passing more laws won't help. Enforcing the ones we have would.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 25 2012, 1:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If we had a smart gun requiring positive ID limited to the licensed owner even this nutcase felon would not have been able to fire the gun he got hold, through theft or whatever.  

Auto registration tied to the VIN number makes it nearly impossible to steal a car and keep its identity from detection, even more with the new gps chips being placed in autos.

It is possible to deconstruct the car, and use some parts, but then you don't have the car, plus the costs go up astronomically, shrinking the supply to a very great degree.

A good, workable smart gun technology would have stopped all of the recent shootings, and reduced the probability of the crazies being able to get a useable gun.  And it would do nothing to the lawabiding gun owner, except make the gun much safer in his own residence, protecting curious children and wantabe suicides.

I have to wonder if this wasn't a fairly elaborate "suicide by cop"

Well, not really, since he shot himself, after shooting firemen and at least one cop. For whatever twisted, insane reason this guy wanted to kill firemen, and he was able to access the gun that made that possible.

No other tool except a gun would have made this killing possible.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 25 2012, 2:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

During this morning's press conference, the Webster Chief of Police stated that they were lucky that officer Ritter happened to be passing by the area because his ability to return fire caused the shooter to flee the area, preventing additional deaths.

Now change "officer Ritter" to "an armed law abiding citizen."  Same result.  Lives saved by a law abiding citizen with a firearm.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 25 2012, 3:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So you guys really aren't able to make the connection between the ease in which anyone without a record can get a Bushmaster or the like and the ability of this crazy with a record to get one and start taking shots.

The very point with this officer's involvement is that he is trained specifically to deal with incidents like this. Saying it may as well have been some idiot with a hero fantasy doesn't make the comparison you appear to think it does.

You're really desperate enough to make the comparison with a trained police officer and one of these disturbed individuals who thinks they are some kind of protector or the innocent because they can buy a gun at their local Walmart?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 25 2012, 3:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nancy Lanza was an armed law abiding citizen.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 25 2012, 3:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

For every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense homicide, a gun will be used in:

- 1.3 unintentional deaths
- 4.6 criminal homicides
- 37 suicides

That is the cost of our masturbatory gun hero fantasies.  

If we want more accidental gun deaths, many more criminal homicides, and exponentially more suicides......by all means this "arm everyone" solution is the way to go.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 25 2012, 3:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And you are not a good guy with a gun. You are a disturbed individual with a gun fetish.

Don't take that personally. It's not meant that way, though I'm finding the warped logic at play here disturbing, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt.

When you place no or such few restrictions on gun ownership there is no way to tell or control is it's a good guy with a gun. It could be a bad guy with a gun, a bad shot with a gun, a panicker with a gun, a wanna-be racist vigilante with a gun, a drunk guy coming back from a wedding with a gun, a mentally ill person with a gun, a misguided guy with a gun, a mistaken guy with a gun, an old guy with a gun whose eyesight is not what it was or who has some tremors going on... the list goes on.

It may even be a girl with a gun and all the variables above.

My experience is that most people don't react well in pressure situations, especially those that imagine they do.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 5:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(orygawn @ Dec. 25 2012, 2:16 pm)
QUOTE
For every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense homicide, a gun will be used in:

- 1.3 unintentional deaths
- 4.6 criminal homicides
- 37 suicides

That is the cost of our masturbatory gun hero fantasies.  

If we want more accidental gun deaths, many more criminal homicides, and exponentially more suicides......by all means this "arm everyone" solution is the way to go.

Another way to think of it is this -

If the gun wasn't there, 1.3 unintentional deaths WOULD NOT HAPPEN.

If the gun wasn't there, 4.6 criminal homicides WOULD NOT HAPPEN.

If the gun wasn't there, 37 suicides WOULD NOT HAPPEN.


So the "cost" of that gun, of any gun including your granddad's old .22 single shot rifle, is almost 43 lives!
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