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Topic: Geitner:  We'll Hit Debt Ceiling on Monday., So What Now?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:39 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just amazing what partisan politics is doing to our country.  More at CNN.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Uni-partisan politics.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Of course!  It's always the other side...

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ignoring that it's more one side than the other, is the problem.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Dec. 26 2012, 6:46 pm)
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Ignoring that it's more one side than the other, is the problem.

This is exactly why our politicians do what they do -- because they know their respective constituents will support them!

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It might give the appearance of objectivity to sit on the fence and point the finger at both sides, but it's useless and unproductive, and a bit dishonest.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sure, right now, it seems the GOP is playing the party of no.  But a big part is simply because we have a Democrat in power!  Turn the table around, and you will get plenty of examples of Democrats trying their best (sometimes succeeding and sometimes not) to frustrate Reagan, or Bush Sr. or Bush Jr.

The ONE time I was hoping for the Democrats to play their role constructively and keep us out of warring with Iraq -- they FAILED!

The other thing that amazes me... some of you seem a lot less concerned about the direction of our country -- and a lot more concerned about "proving" that one party is worse than the other.  THAT, to me, is the truly useless / unproductive part!!  Why?  Because right now, even the less worse party (whichever one it is) is not even anywhere near being 'acceptable'.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 9:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

One party is worse than the other.  It doesn't make you seem more rational to fail to acknowledge that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 26 2012, 10:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Dec. 26 2012, 6:59 pm)
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One party is worse than the other.

I don't care.  Both are dragging our country in the wrong directions.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 12:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We get the Clinton tax rates back plus take a look at short-term government spending where there's plenty of pork.  Talking about pork, let's look at Texas as an example.  For that state's minuscule federal public lands, there's a lot of Forest Service in central West TX advising farmers and ranchers.  

Really?  The state that says we spend too much has all these ag majors on the government payroll assisting on private land?

Still it will be long-term medical bills that will suck up most of GDP regardless of Romneycare, Obamacare, or Ryancare.  We are going to need a fat (and sugar) tax


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 12:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(SW Mtn backpacker @ Dec. 26 2012, 9:33 pm)
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.....
Still it will be long-term medical bills that will suck up most of GDP regardless of Romneycare, Obamacare, or Ryancare.  We are going to need a fat (and sugar) tax

"Fat (and sugar) tax: Ah and now after Obamacare Big Insurance is suddenly of the other side of the lobbying fence fom Big Food. So the odds of those taxes and more just got a boost with Obama's reelection.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 6:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 26 2012, 9:01 pm)
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(HighGravity @ Dec. 26 2012, 6:59 pm)
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One party is worse than the other.

I don't care.  Both are dragging our country in the wrong directions.

The only part of your statement that might be true is that you don't care.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 12:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You're absolutely right, Woody.  I don't care which of the two loser parties is the bigger loser.

Well, we are now staring at the fiscal cliff.  Get ready for the ride.  Our politicians are taking us there because people like you are supporting their fights -- hey, the other side is wrong, don't back down now.

If this means a ruined economy, I know people like you will relish the moment -- to really pin the other side down and hard -- except, of course, the favor is returned by the other half of our nation's population.  Idiotic.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 12:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wheeeee, let's get started down the fiscal bunny slope.  

It will be fun and very educational.  Let the public find out that not only will the Republicans who created the "fiscal cliff" do nothing to avoid it, just vote NO a couple more times, the country will then find out that the "fiscal cliff" is just a PR creation that the Pubbies hoped would scare the President into giving in to their insane demands that would hurt the country long term.

The fall off the cliff will be less of a problem than falling off your couch, and will turn out to be another scam like the millenium crash in 2000.

So, sit back and enjoy the slide down the bunny slope until it all gets fixed in mid January, without any help from the House Republicans.  Could be a real plus for the country over the next 4 years.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 12:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 27 2012, 10:25 am)
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Our politicians are taking us there because people like you are supporting their fights -- hey, the other side is wrong, don't back down now.

If this means a ruined economy, I know people like you will relish the moment -- to really pin the other side down and hard -- except, of course, the favor is returned by the other half of our nation's population.  Idiotic.

I think this is cover for the politicians to come back to pass a middle class tax break between Boener's $1,000,000 and Obama's $250,000.   The Republican's cannot vote for a tax increase, so IMHO they may let the cliff pass, then the new Congress pass a limited tax break, legitimately saying they voted for a tax break.

If agricultural subsidies are removed and milk goes to $6 per gallon, a lot of mothers and grandma's will be taking their representative to the woodshed for an old-fashioned beating, so they need to act quickly.

Of course the 800 lb gorillas are the Fed and Treasury with their reactions if the economy really goes south.  Who knows?  They may take a page from Bush II and send checks to every non-incarcertated adult ... heck make it bigger at $20K per person, ... print some more of that stuff up but don't send it to the banks.

Anyways, you think corporate America will let this bounty of cheap sugar, cheap "meats", and cheap gas to make the consumer products we all "know and love" (/sarcasm) end?  Give the people what they want !!! --  liberty, concoctions full of high fructose corn syrup, and mystery meat!!!!!


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 27 2012, 11:25 am)
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You're absolutely right, Woody.  I don't care which of the two loser parties is the bigger loser.

Well, we are now staring at the fiscal cliff.  Get ready for the ride.  Our politicians are taking us there because people like you are supporting their fights -- hey, the other side is wrong, don't back down now.

If this means a ruined economy, I know people like you will relish the moment -- to really pin the other side down and hard -- except, of course, the favor is returned by the other half of our nation's population.  Idiotic.

What's idiotic is your false equivalency.

I don't like the Democratic Party, I don't care about their partisan fights (except to the extent good policy is hindered), and (with rare exceptions) I don't give a rodent's posterior about about their politicians.

What I do care about is good policy that is fair, makes economic sense, and is environmentally sustainable.

You excoriate both parties equally, presumably because they both refuse to meet each other halfway in working together on a comprise.

What you apparently fail to understand or acknowledge is that one party has already moved to the halfway point with a balanced approach to deficit reduction, while the other refuses to budge an inch. The GOP House shot down their own leader when he proposed letting tax cuts expire on incomes above $1mil instead of the $250k the president proposed, despite the fact that ALL tax cuts will expire if they're not willing to compromise.

The sad fact of the matter is the Republican Party has already gone over the cliff, jumped the shark, and the lunatics are running the asylum. There have been numerous threads in this forum posting links to principled conservatives who have left their party because of what it has become. One party is far from perfect, while the other party is a perfect mess.

I want a viable, rational, responsible conservative party to counterbalance the left-leaning party, but unfortunately we don't have that today.

Giving in to the uncompromising demands of a party that is off its hinges is not good policy. Going over the so-called "cliff" would be better for the economy and for the American people.

That's the situation we face, whether or not you "care" acknowledge it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 1:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And your approach is productive how?

I think that except for the extremes (and almost by definition irrational) of each party, most all of us are pretty disgusted with our current politics.  Some options:

1.  We can agree as voters to kick these politicians out one and all for what they are doing to our country.  Or...

2.  Like you, folks can continue to argue which party is worse.

But what is the problem -- if you are truly convinced that the other side is more wrong than your own?  Well, your condemnation energizes many more on the other side to defend their party -- and much more enthusiastically than otherwise.

So really, your approach -- the approach of the pretty much the last decade -- gets our country absolutely nowhere.

Not disagreeing with your evaluation of the two parties -- but the way you stick to "the principles" that the other side must take the blame -- is the oxygen for the fights to continue.

You see, sometimes, one can be right -- and be completely counter productive by insisting on everybody's acknowledgement thereof.  Especially when what we have are merely different shades.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 2:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yep, but if you look at history you will notice that we started out with a one party system, and it quickly evolved into the two party system.  With great infighting amoung the founding fathers, I might add.

Many would like to see a multi party system, like many of the European models, but I don't agree.

I think that the average American citizen is better served with the two party system, and a wide open First Amendment that allows any and all to voice their disagreements with the party in power, or with both parties when there is split power, as is so often the case.

The Republicans seem to be intent on committing political suicide right now, but there will be a new, major party to replace them within one or two elections.

A lot of this kind of shifting of parties went on in the mid 19th Century when we had a rapid demographic change in the country due to immigration, and the battle over slavery,  but within 20 years we were firmly back to a two party system.

Like the old saw says:  A democratic republic is about the worst government you can imagine, until you consider the alternatives.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 2:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here is glimpse at the real economic action, while Caesar fiddles:

The Most Overlooked Statistic in Economics Is Poised for an Epic Comeback: Household Formation

http://www.theatlantic.com/busines....3


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 2:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Dec. 27 2012, 11:03 am)
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I think that the average American citizen is better served with the two party system...

I agree with that too -- but there is also the saying that "a country deserves the government it has".  A two-party system is always made better when citizens hold their politicians accountable.

Right now, supporters of both parties are essentially egging their reps on to 'continue the fight'.

Do you not notice that many other countries are gaining on us in all fields -- including technology?  And what have we done to improve our schools and our economic infrastructures?  Nothing really.  We've all been fighting over the "proxy issue" of taxing the rich -- or not -- everything else be damned.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Dec. 27 2012, 11:12 am)
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Here is glimpse at the real economic action, while Caesar fiddles:

The Most Overlooked Statistic in Economics Is Poised for an Epic Comeback: Household Formation

http://www.theatlantic.com/busines....3

That -- and reading the news from Asia, Chinese factories are positively humming again!  All good signs.  But my fear is that a "forced" fiscal cliff may just turn public psychology back to 'battening down the hatches' again.

Not that I (or anyone else) really know for sure, but recall the Great Depression of the 1930's was essentially two deep double dips...


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 2:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Right now, supporters of both parties are essentially egging their reps on to 'continue the fight'.

That's what a two party system is, what it has always been!

Public opinion has to solidify to the point it makes the politicians pay attention and alter their policies to satisfy them.  I think that is exactly what is happening now, what happened in November, and what will happen over the next 4 years.

Obama is unusally well attuned to the issues that are important to most people, and nuanced, intelligent, and tough enough to get them done.  

I happen to think that the "fiscal Cliff" is going to end as a big victory for Obama and the Democrats and set them up for a very productive four years, with a huge economic recovery.

YMMV


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(wwwest @ Dec. 27 2012, 11:22 am)
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I happen to think that the "fiscal Cliff" is going to end as a big victory for Obama and the Democrats and set them up for a very productive four years, with a huge economic recovery.

YMMV

Careful you don't get yourself a pyrrhic victory!  Yes, YMMV.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 2:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 27 2012, 12:51 pm)
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And your approach is productive how?

I think that except for the extremes (and almost by definition irrational) of each party, most all of us are pretty disgusted with our current politics.  Some options:

1.  We can agree as voters to kick these politicians out one and all for what they are doing to our country.  Or...

2.  Like you, folks can continue to argue which party is worse.

But what is the problem -- if you are truly convinced that the other side is more wrong than your own?  Well, your condemnation energizes many more on the other side to defend their party -- and much more enthusiastically than otherwise.

So really, your approach -- the approach of the pretty much the last decade -- gets our country absolutely nowhere.

Not disagreeing with your evaluation of the two parties -- but the way you stick to "the principles" that the other side must take the blame -- is the oxygen for the fights to continue.

You see, sometimes, one can be right -- and be completely counter productive by insisting on everybody's acknowledgement thereof.  Especially when what we have are merely different shades.

My approach is to support the most practical avenue to the best achievable policy. Arguing "which party is worse"  is not my "approach" -- it's an attempt to explain to you why the false equivalency you constantly put forward mischaracterizes the situation and is the WRONG approach.

My "condemnation"  is heard by very few people, and I'm sure it "energizes"  even fewer. When lifelong conservatives condemn what their party has become, it's a sure indication the condemnation is warranted. Pretending otherwise is not a productive approach.

Not sure what you mean by "merely different shades"  unless it's an attempt to backdoor your false equivalency after not disagreeing with my evaluation of the two parties.

My bottom line remains supporting the most practical avenue to the best achievable policy (i.e. the realm of the possible) while acknowledging that lack of agreement on the "fiscal cliff" is better than implenting policy that would do more harm than good.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 2:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Republicans will be happy because they stuck to their principles. Democrats will be happy because they have someone to blame.

All is good.


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(Drift Woody @ Dec. 27 2012, 11:38 am)
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My approach is to support the most practical avenue to the best achievable policy. Arguing "which party is worse"  is not my "approach" ...

When lifelong conservatives condemn what their party has become, it's a sure indication the condemnation is warranted. Pretending otherwise is not a productive approach.

Read the two parts you wrote -- excerpted above.  You (and so many others like you) are so in the habit that you don't even realize it anymore.  Classic 'yeah, but...'.


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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Dec. 27 2012, 11:41 am)
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Republicans will be happy because they stuck to their principles. Democrats will be happy because they have someone to blame.

All is good.

You hit it right on the nail!!

And the harder we fall, the more the extreme conservatives can congratulate themselves on their 'resoluteness'.   And the more clearly Dems think they can blame the GOP.  So why would they not want the fiscal cliff to happen?

But if this should spiral out of control -- both sides will come to regret their insanely counterproductive fights.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 3:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 27 2012, 2:45 pm)
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But if this should spiral out of control -- both sides will come to regret their insanely counterproductive fights.

Yup. I can see a third party being formed consisting of independents, blue dog democrats, and mentally-stable republicans.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 27 2012, 3:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The thing is that "solving" or dealing with the fiscal cliff will be seen as a plus for the president, and by association the Dems. While the GOP will likely get the blame there is a bigger upside to finding a solution, so the Dems wanting us to head off the cliff is not a realistic scenario.

While there is a political calculation here the Dems have a much more important (for all of us here) long game to play.

The GOP has brought the extremists to the center stage and now we are all going to pay the price for this move.

Interesting that the puppet masters behind the tea baggers have been quiet. We don't seem to be getting the deluge of debt stories flooding the conservative echo chamber for the puppets to cut and paste.
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(Ben2World @ Dec. 27 2012, 1:43 pm)
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(Drift Woody @ Dec. 27 2012, 11:38 am)
QUOTE
My approach is to support the most practical avenue to the best achievable policy. Arguing "which party is worse"  is not my "approach" ...

When lifelong conservatives condemn what their party has become, it's a sure indication the condemnation is warranted. Pretending otherwise is not a productive approach.

Read the two parts you wrote -- excerpted above.  You (and so many others like you) are so in the habit that you don't even realize it anymore.  Classic 'yeah, but...'.

The 2nd excerpt is merely pointing out what should be obvious -- pretending something is other than what it really is will get us nowhere. We need to live in the real world if we want to get anything positive accomplished. The Republican Party will never reform itself and become a productive partner in governance if the media and people like you  pretend there is no substantive difference in the merits of the policies being proposed and the relative efforts at cooperation by the two parties.

The point is not which side is worse -- it's what needs to change in order to implement better policies.


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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
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