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desert dweller 
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 10:36 am |
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How does this make sense?
Are the armed volunteers going to just hang out all day long, day after day after day? That'll get old pretty quick when nothing happens. School shootings are quite rare.
Arizona Sheriff Aims to Put Armed Posse at Schools
PHOENIX December 28, 2012 (AP)
He says he doesn't plan to put posse members inside schools but will have them posted around the perimeters.
Source.
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| Post Number: 2
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HighGravity
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 10:39 am |
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Volunteers with guns near children. Sounds like a brilliant idea. Bet some of them will even have a few hours of training ahead of time.
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desert dweller
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 10:47 am |
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Plus, when it's 120 degrees in Phoenix, the armed volunteers will probably just hang out in their cars with the a/c on wasting resources. They may become the targets themselves. And, how would you tell who is the armed volunteer and who is the kid-watching pervert?
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| Post Number: 4
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EastieTrekker
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 11:09 am |
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(desert dweller @ Dec. 28 2012, 10:36 am)
QUOTE Are the armed volunteers going to just hang out all day long, day after day after day? That'll get old pretty quick when nothing happens. School shootings are quite rare.
That's my question too, for all those who think this corps of volunteers is the answer.
Yes, there may currently be a feeling of goodwill in response to the Newtown tragedy, but people have short memories. Are these volunteers going to show up continually, without pay, every day, sharp and attentive? I personally feel like this method will grow old quickly (without making this a paid position you reduce the competition within the applicant pool, therefore probably are not getting the highest quality candidates for such an important position).
Also, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, there were approximately 140,000 schools in 2010. So what's the appropriate number of guards per school? 1, 2, 5, 10? Probably varies with the size of the institution, but let's call it 4. That's 560,000 full time volunteers, working for $0 in perpetuity, with the chance that their services will actually never be needed...
We need a better solution.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice. 
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HighGravity
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 12:35 pm |
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(BillBab @ Dec. 28 2012, 12:32 pm)
QUOTE
(desert dweller @ Dec. 28 2012, 10:36 am)
QUOTE School shootings are quite rare. I laughed out loud when a talk show host said this the other day. We need to ban/confiscate guns from law abiding citizens so that our schools will be safe.....but we do not need guards at schools because schools are really safe. Makes perfect sense to some people.... 
Sounds like the kind of thing that would make a lunatic laugh out loud.
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wwwest
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 1:24 pm |
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http://wreg.com/2012/12/25/10-year-old-boy-accidentally-shot-and-killed-on-christmas/
Hmm, making sh!t up again?? Check what really happened:
LaPierre is right—it’s possible that an armed guard could have stopped Adam Lanza. But is it likely? Consider the case of Columbine High School.
On April 20, 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 12 students and one teacher at Columbine. On the scene that day was Neil Gardner, an armed sheriff’s deputy who had been policing the school for almost two years.
As a CNN report describes, Gardner was eating lunch when he got a call from a custodian that he was needed in the school’s back parking lot. A few minutes later, he encountered Harris and the two exchanged gunfire. Harris was not hit and ran back inside the school. At that point, “Gardner called for additional units to respond to the south parking lot of Columbine High School. … While he was on the radio calling for assistance, five other Jefferson County deputies already were on their way, arriving only minutes after the first report of a ‘female down’ at Columbine High School.” Later, Gardner saw Harris again, through a broken window. Once again, he fired. Once again, he didn’t hit him.
Though it’s possible Gardner distracted Harris enough to prevent additional carnage, that’s ultimately unknowable. What does seem certain is that a single armed security guard had little chance that day of preventing a pair of heavily armed killers from doing what they set out to do
http://www.slate.com/blogs....am.html
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EastieTrekker
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 2:50 pm |
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Let's just be realistic for a moment...do the supporters of this idea truly believe we will have no problem finding 560,000 highly qualified volunteers to do this job? I don't think so, but am happy to hear why this is an easily accomplished goal.
Now, more realistically if this is the solution you desire, you should understand how capitalism works, and as I mentioned above, providing no pay by its very definition reduces the pool of highly skilled applicants, who rather than provide volunteer service, can put there skills to use in a paid position. I don't think we want a bunch of volunteers with a second-tier skill set protecting our children, would you?
Therefore, if this is a solution you desire, you're going to have to pony-up the cash to pay these people, and attract highly-skilled and responsible armed guards with a history of proper training. So what will that cost? I'd argue a pretty competitive salary. But let's lowball it, call it a $30,000 salary with an equivalent of another $10,000 in benefits (health care, PTO, sick time, etc.). Based on my rough estimate of 4 guards per school (on average), that puts the bill at approximately $22.4 Billion.
So who's paying for this? That's a lot of money! Perhaps the NRA and its members wouldn't mind picking up the tab since it was their idea?
ETA: Hell, let's just tack it on to the Defense budget. It's only 3.4% of the 2011 Defense Budget, so who'll even notice? 
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.
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nogods
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:16 pm |
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We have about 750,000 volunteer firefighters in the US. Apparently ther are people willing to volunteer their time and risk their lives for others.
Guards in schools are not a permanent or sole solution.
But while we search for more practical solutions we need to protect our schools as best we can.
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EastieTrekker
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:22 pm |
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(nogods @ Dec. 28 2012, 3:16 pm)
QUOTE We have about 750,000 volunteer firefighters in the US. Apparently ther are people willing to volunteer their time and risk their lives for others.
Guards in schools are not a permanent or sole solution.
But while we search for more practical solutions we need to protect our schools as best we can.
Volunteer firefighters are not required to stand guard at a particular location for 7 hours a day. Huge difference, huge.
We're talking FULL TIME volunteers in this scenario, right? If they were just on call armed guards, wouldn't we just call the police instead? And I thought the point was for them to stand guard and deter would be killers, no?
You're right, they aren't a permanent or sole solution, and if we think (collectively as a nation) that 560,000 FULL TIME volunteers are highly trained and ready to be dispatched, we're a long way from ANY solution.
I'll ask again. Do you want a bunch of second-tier guards protecting your children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, etc? I know I don't.
ETA: I'll even take it a step further. Why don't we just pay police officers to stand guard? They are highly trained not only in the use of their weapons, but in their ability to sense and respond to dangerous situations. But you'd rather have an unpaid Jimmmy Bob, stand guard? Why because we're too cheap as a nation to pay for the protection of our children? Give me a break! This volunteer garbage is a NON solution. Either get real and pay some real highly trained guards, or find another more realistic solution. This one's a non-starter.
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| Post Number: 12
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EastieTrekker
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:30 pm |
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Further - why wasn't an increased police presence offered up as a solution by the NRA? Perhaps it's because that doesn't align with the NRA's goal of selling more weapons? Or is that the NRA is largely aligned with the Republicans and their base, who would abhor paying $20+ billion to protect children, but wouldn't think twice of dropping $665 billion on the defense budget.
ETA: Besides that, I already played this level in Call of Duty. You know the level where they bulk up security at your target location? C'mon, you know that level! It's the one where you find out about the increased security, so you add a sniper rifle to your arsenal of weapons, and take a spot on the hillside, and then proceed to snipe the outdoor guards so that you'll only need to deal with the one interior guard once you make it inside.
What, you don't think these crazy white boys would do that if they knew security was beefed up?
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.
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| Post Number: 13
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BillBab
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:33 pm |
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I would much prefer a bunch of "second-tier" guards to no guards at all
And if you believe all police officers are highly trained and proficient with their weapons you are sadly mistaken
We arm pilots and also have air marshals.....but we can't manage to protect schools....
Kinda sad
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:33 pm |
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"Why don't we just pay police officers to stand guard?"
There are districts that have and are. I posted a report about one in NJ a while ago. Marlboro NJ.
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Land Rover
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:33 pm |
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Look who the Sheriff is though.
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EastieTrekker
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:39 pm |
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 28 2012, 3:33 pm)
QUOTE "Why don't we just pay police officers to stand guard?"
There are districts that have and are. I posted a report about one in NJ a while ago. Marlboro NJ.
HSF, that shouldn't be news to anyone. I went to an urban high school from 1996 - 2000, and we had police officers outside and inside the school.
But I think you're missing my point, which is that the idea that 500,000+ plus highly trained volunteers are going to spend 7 hours a day, 180 days a year with no pay into perpetuity, is a little farcical.
So my very point is that police officers are the type of presence we need (if we want to go the armed guard route), not second tier volunteers, so why would the NRA even make such a dopey suggestion?
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.
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| Post Number: 17
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wwwest
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:42 pm |
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The gun nuts will support anything except practical steps to make guns less deadly in the hands of a mass killer.
Go ahead support billions of dollars for guards in schools, but also spend a few million to get smart guns in production so that only the licensed owner of the gun can fire it.
Huge step toward making guns less deadly in the hands of a mass killer.
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| Post Number: 19
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BillBab
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 3:48 pm |
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(wwwest @ Dec. 28 2012, 1:24 pm)
QUOTE http://wreg.com/2012/12/25/10-year-old-boy-accidentally-shot-and-killed-on-christmas/Hmm, making sh!t up again?? Check what really happened:
LaPierre is right—it’s possible that an armed guard could have stopped Adam Lanza. But is it likely? Consider the case of Columbine High School.
On April 20, 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 12 students and one teacher at Columbine. On the scene that day was Neil Gardner, an armed sheriff’s deputy who had been policing the school for almost two years.
As a CNN report describes, Gardner was eating lunch when he got a call from a custodian that he was needed in the school’s back parking lot. A few minutes later, he encountered Harris and the two exchanged gunfire. Harris was not hit and ran back inside the school. At that point, “Gardner called for additional units to respond to the south parking lot of Columbine High School. … While he was on the radio calling for assistance, five other Jefferson County deputies already were on their way, arriving only minutes after the first report of a ‘female down’ at Columbine High School.” Later, Gardner saw Harris again, through a broken window. Once again, he fired. Once again, he didn’t hit him.
Though it’s possible Gardner distracted Harris enough to prevent additional carnage, that’s ultimately unknowable. What does seem certain is that a single armed security guard had little chance that day of preventing a pair of heavily armed killers from doing what they set out to do
http://www.slate.com/blogs....am.html
Every minute the bad guys spent ducking incoming fire were more precious minutes they were not murdering students.
But unfortunately, he had to fight his way into the school
Prior to Columbine the standard response was to establish a perimeter and formulate a plan
After Columbine the standard response to an active shooter was to go in as soon as you had a pair of armed responders
Lanza killed himself as soon as armed responders showed up... a long 20 minutes into his spree
If someone had engaged him immediately he might not have made it to either classroom...he might have shot himself immediately
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"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."
Thomas Sowell
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nogods
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 4:35 pm |
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(EastieTrekker @ Dec. 28 2012, 3:22 pm)
QUOTE
(nogods @ Dec. 28 2012, 3:16 pm)
QUOTE We have about 750,000 volunteer firefighters in the US. Apparently ther are people willing to volunteer their time and risk their lives for others.
Guards in schools are not a permanent or sole solution.
But while we search for more practical solutions we need to protect our schools as best we can. Volunteer firefighters are not required to stand guard at a particular location for 7 hours a day. Huge difference, huge. We're talking FULL TIME volunteers in this scenario, right? If they were just on call armed guards, wouldn't we just call the police instead? And I thought the point was for them to stand guard and deter would be killers, no? You're right, they aren't a permanent or sole solution, and if we think (collectively as a nation) that 560,000 FULL TIME volunteers are highly trained and ready to be dispatched, we're a long way from ANY solution. I'll ask again. Do you want a bunch of second-tier guards protecting your children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, etc? I know I don't. ETA: I'll even take it a step further. Why don't we just pay police officers to stand guard? They are highly trained not only in the use of their weapons, but in their ability to sense and respond to dangerous situations. But you'd rather have an unpaid Jimmmy Bob, stand guard? Why because we're too cheap as a nation to pay for the protection of our children? Give me a break! This volunteer garbage is a NON solution. Either get real and pay some real highly trained guards, or find another more realistic solution. This one's a non-starter.
I don't consider my neighbors who are volunteer firefighters and emt's as second tier. They are individuals who perform their volunteer duties with responsibility and dedication. Many are LEO's.
Most volunteer firefighters would find it a lot easy to be stationed in a firehouse for a 4 hour shift than being on beck and call at all times during the night and day.
If we can organize 750,000 people to fight fires, then we can organize 560,000 people to protect our schools.
Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean there aren't sufficient others who will.
So please, get out of the way if you are unwilling to help and let those who are wing to help do what you can't or won't.
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EastieTrekker
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 4:55 pm |
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QUOTE I don't consider my neighbors who are volunteer firefighters and emt's as second tier. They are individuals who perform their volunteer duties with responsibility and dedication. Many are LEO's.
Most volunteer firefighters would find it a lot easy to be stationed in a firehouse for a 4 hour shift than being on beck and call at all times during the night and day.
If we can organize 750,000 people to fight fires, then we can organize 560,000 people to protect our schools.
Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean there aren't sufficient others who will.
So please, get out of the way if you are unwilling to help and let those who are wing to help do what you can't or won't.
You don't consider them 2nd-tier, but that's your opinion not a fact. Someone who does it for a living is the top-tier attainable, else why do it for a living at all. Doesn't 30 years as a firefighter, read as a better qualification, than a 30 year volunteer who responded to a far lower amount of actual emergencies? Once again, if this is the road we travel down, I want professionals protecting my children, not wannabes. As I mentioned in another post, I heard Plaxico Buress is available to volunteer his time, do you want him protecting your children?
Maybe some volunteers would prefer to go to their regular job 9-5, and then to the firehouse from 6-10, 5 days a week, but I highly doubt there would even be 750,000 volunteer fire fighters if it required working a 60 hour work week EVERY week. That's why people volunteer. Because they cannot commit to large blocks of time unpaid, but they do wish to be available to help in an emergency.
But again, that's still not an apples to apples comparison because armed guards would be working 35 hours a week just for normal school time, let alone after school activities. So your expecting 500,000 to NOT have a full time job, and volunteer full time with no benefits? Good luck?
Just because I wouldn't do it? Excuse me, this bad idea wasn't mine, and I must have missed the post where you say you're dropping your job, to go volunteer full time. If your going to talk the talk, you might want to...oh well never mind, it's not as though you really think this is a solution, just another distraction from the real conversation.
So please, if you aren't going to personally volunteer your time, or come up with any other suggestion than the NRA sponsored one, get out of the way so we can work on a real solution.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.
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| Post Number: 24
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Land Rover
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 5:19 pm |
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I'm wondering if we will need to arm these volunteers with Bushmasters - since who would want to be outgunned protecting a school?
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| Post Number: 25
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 6:35 pm |
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(EastieTrekker @ Dec. 28 2012, 12:39 pm)
QUOTE
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Dec. 28 2012, 3:33 pm)
QUOTE "Why don't we just pay police officers to stand guard?"
There are districts that have and are. I posted a report about one in NJ a while ago. Marlboro NJ. HSF, that shouldn't be news to anyone. I went to an urban high school from 1996 - 2000, and we had police officers outside and inside the school. But I think you're missing my point, which is that the idea that 500,000+ plus highly trained volunteers are going to spend 7 hours a day, 180 days a year with no pay into perpetuity, is a little farcical. So my very point is that police officers are the type of presence we need (if we want to go the armed guard route), not second tier volunteers, so why would the NRA even make such a dopey suggestion?
Yore missing the point I suggested police a long time ago, felt no need to cheer on your issue with volunteers.
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BillBab
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Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 9:40 am |
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(EastieTrekker @ Dec. 28 2012, 3:41 pm)
QUOTE
(BillBab @ Dec. 28 2012, 3:33 pm)
QUOTE And if you believe all police officers are highly trained and proficient with their weapons you are sadly mistaken This is an "avoid my direct question, with an indirect answer", kind of response. So, if I can't rely on police officers to be highly trained with a deadly weapon, you are expecting me to just trust Jimmy Bob who had all his training shooting beer cans with my kids? No way, no how. ETA: Why don't we hire Plaxico Burress to protect the school in your town? He's probably bored now that his NFL career is over, since shooting himself in the leg at a club.
No, I answered that I would rather have second tier guards than none at all
But I also pointed out that not all police officers are "highly trained with weapons"
The probable reason the NRA offered to highly train some school personnell is because
1. They were already on the payroll
2. They had other things to contirbute when someone was
not attacking
I probably should have also pointed out that you were stacking up logical fallacies at an alarming rate
Nobody wants Barney Fife defending their kids. They want someone that can be trusted with bullets. But that does not need to be some combat vetran (except maybe for Chicago schools) Using police is actually probably a bad idea long term since their unions will bankrupt the states 
So bringing up Jimmy Bob is silly....unless he is much better trained than you made him out to be
In todays litigous society, anyone allowed to go armed in schools would be required to earn and maintain some sort of certification. They would porbably shoot a lot more often and have to qualify at least as often as some cops I know
I don't think anybody seriously thinks this sherriff plans on these volunteers to be stationed at schools indefinitely. But at least he is acting like there is a problem and he wants to fix it. He is not just talking about it
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"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."
Thomas Sowell
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wwwest
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Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 11:53 am |
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Right, he just wanted his picture and his silly proposal on Faux News and CNN, so he would have another 15 seconds of fame.
He knows, as we all know, that this is not any kind of a relaistic solution, just another distraction by another egomaniac who wants nothing do with making guns less deadly in the hands of a mass killer.
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Pathfinder1
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Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 1:05 pm |
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Hi...
Our elementary school is located behind...and in full view...of the Police Station. Our middle and high school has a qualified Village policeman on duty throughout any day that the schools are in session.
Obviously this is not a cure-all for all contingencies, but it appears that we're ahead of many other schools regarding making our children safer.
Regarding Volunteer Firefighters, here in our County, our largest Village (a mere 6,500 year-around residents)...responds to well over ONE THOUSAND emergency calls every year...!! These men and women firefighters are highly trained, and are required to continue their training for many hours annually, in addition to regular drills at their respective fire stations.
Other, although smaller, fire department are also as well trained, as mandated by New York State Law. Their firefighting jobs are frequently HARDER than those of a paid FD, as the response to an emergency frequently doesn't involve the same firefighters on each call.
On any given call, you may be an apparatus driver and operator. On another call, you may be a nozzleman, or involved in searching a dwelling for persond needing to be evacuated. We recieve training, training, training, and more training.
In addition, we have to purchase our own turn-out gear...!!
Our residents are extremely proud of our firefighters, and cannot honor them enough.
I hope that any nay-sayers can now better apprediate the jobs that they perform, at any hour of the day or night, whether at home or at work, and regardless of what the weather might be.
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