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Topic: Killer of fireman got guns through straw purchase< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 4:28 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

He got the shotgun and rifle through a straw purchase.  They haven't yet stated where he got the handgun

QUOTE
According to Federal officials, 24-year-old Dawn Nguyen is charged with knowingly making a false statement in connection with the purchase of two firearms, and falsifying business records.

Federal officials said Friday that Nguyen purchased the guns from Gander Mountain in Henrietta in June of 2010.


http://rochester.ynn.com/content....hooting

Now surely, if Nguyen and Spengler could not have obtained the guns by breaking the law in the way they did, then they wouldn't have obtained them from any other illegal source.  

That's why we can't allow marijuanna to be used for medical purposes, because if it is legal for any reason, people will break the law to get it for non-medical uses, and surely they wouldn't try to get it through any other illegal means if there were no legal uses for marijuanna.

Sure.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 6:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not sure on what planet you need to be on to see this as anything more than a prime example of how the legal gun trade feeds the number of illegal guns in the hands of criminals and the insane. We need tighter gun control laws now!
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 7:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 7:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Dec. 28 2012, 6:21 pm)
QUOTE
Not sure on what planet you need to be on to see this as anything more than a prime example of how the legal gun trade feeds the number of illegal guns in the hands of criminals and the insane. We need tighter gun control laws now!

The laughable part is your belief that laws against firearms are going to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

What part of "they don't obey the law now" don't you understand?

Hey, make a law and they'll obey it.  Stop legal production of an item and the criminals won't be able to obtain it.

Perhaps you are unaware of how poorly such nonsense works with drugs and how poorly it worked with alcohol.

We can't keep hoards of illegal immigrants from crossing our borders but you think we'll be able to keep banned weapons off the streets.  

The illegal trade in banned wildlife is a multi-billion dollar industry despite the fact that:

QUOTE
the The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service has developed the most advanced and robust wildlife law enforcement program in the world. Stationing inspectors at ports across the country and providing enforcement training around the world, the United States is an international leader in combatting wildlife crime.


http://www.fws.gov/interna....de.html

I'm wrong, your ignorance isn't laughable, it is sad.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 7:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Exactly why we need to have all guns registered and licensed, plus fitted with smart gun technology limiting their use to the licensed owner.

We have a half billion cars and manage to keep them located, taxed and licensed.  This is not really  that tough a job.

Except we have to get behind and get started.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 8:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Dec. 28 2012, 7:53 pm)
QUOTE
Exactly why we need to have all guns registered and licensed, plus fitted with smart gun technology limiting their use to the licensed owner.

We have a half billion cars and manage to keep them located, taxed and licensed.  This is not really  that tough a job.

Except we have to get behind and get started.

OK - lets do what you suggest.  As soon as we also get behind an end to drunken driving with the required installation of ingnition locks in all cars.

QUOTE
The NTSB also strongly endorsed the continued development of a passive alcohol-detection technology. The Driver Alcohol Detection System for Safety (DADSS) would prevent alcohol-impaired individuals from operating their vehicles by detecting alcohol in the driver's system through breath- and touch-based sensors.

"Technology is the game changer in reducing alcohol-related crashes on our nation's roadways," Hersman said. "Achieving zero alcohol-impaired driving-related deaths is possible only if society is willing to separate the impaired driver from the driving task."


I can understand why the car industry  would resist such measures for economic reasons, but why would the restaurant and alcohol industry be against keeping drunks from driving?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 8:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No matter how many times you bring up cars it doesn't make your comparison a valid one.

At a fundamental level cars are meant to provide transportation. Misuse of them causes deaths.

Guns are meant, from their earliest inception, to kill. When someone uses them as intended they kill. They are fundamentally deadly at their basic level.

All the BS about target shooting is basically a derivative of training to be able to kill things effectively.

Now, you can argue that hunting an self-defense is a legitimate form of killing, but it is killing nevertheless. I'd even agree with you that as things exist in America that they are necessary, and I'd likely agree with you.

But you inability to identify or even recognize the harm at having so many guns out there does is disturbing. Your love of them seems to be to the point of obsession, and you seem unable to identify the issues at hand here without descending into some sort of persecuted victims status about having all your guns taken away.

Now, trigger locks. Once you are able to come to terms with the fact that guns are designed purely to kill we can maybe stop pretending they are like cars. Once you deal with that fact we can come up with solutions that would offer little by way of inconvenience to you and your buds down the gun range and make it slightly more difficult for psychopaths like those mentioned here to get hold of.

The bottom line is that guns are meant to kill. If they don't then they are not very good guns. The bushmaster and guns like it seem to have the ability to kill large numbers of innocents in short periods of time and so setting all the little distractions about what is an assault weapon aside, we need to get better control of who gets access to them.

Stop throwing the tantrum and deal with the fact that we had a lot of dead kids because of the ease of availability of this weapon to a psychopath.

Your wacko solutions simply involves putting more guns out there putting even more of the weapons in the hands of the sick and disturbed.

You represent the center of the problem here Nogods - no amount of excuses and distractions and comparisons to cars is going to change that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 10:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Disarming innocent people does not protect innocent people"
R. Lee Ermey

There are laws in some places stating that anyone making a straw purchase can be charged and tried for crimes committed with those guns.

Enforce that law for these crimes.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 10:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So are you disarmed with any number of handguns, hunting rifles and handguns and as much ammo as you can fit in your home?

If not then perhaps you can start dealing with what is actually being said rather than all this BS about disarming people.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 28 2012, 11:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Dec. 28 2012, 1:28 pm)
QUOTE
He got the shotgun and rifle through a straw purchase.  They haven't yet stated where he got the handgun

Perhaps if a more extensive background check and a waiting period had been in place, she wouldn't have agreed to make the straw purchase.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 9:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What these guys did was already illegal....how would making it more illegal help exactly???

I agree that the straw purchaser should be tried as an accomplice to mass murder

One thing all law abiding gun owners agree with is that people that commit violent crimes with guns should be severely punished


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 9:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Dec. 28 2012, 7:53 pm)
QUOTE
Exactly why we need to have all guns registered and licensed, plus fitted with smart gun technology limiting their use to the licensed owner.

You really need to stop watching only Sci-Fi

And get your $$$ out of whatever biometric access startup you put it in


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 9:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't know what state it was in or their laws. Here in south carolina we have a magazine called "carolina trader". I can look through pages of gun ads right now, call up a person, meet them wherever they want, and buy a gun from them for cash. If I go to wal-mart I have to fill out forms, but if I call billy joe who's unloading his deceased father's gun stash so he can make the rent this month, I can buy whatever he has with NO paperwork at all. Smart sellers make the person fill out a typed "bill of sale", so if the gun is used in a crime, you can show the cops "hey I sold it to steve", but there's no requirements for private citizens to do background checks.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 10:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Dec. 29 2012, 9:20 am)
QUOTE
What these guys did was already illegal....how would making it more illegal help exactly???

I agree that the straw purchaser should be tried as an accomplice to mass murder

One thing all law abiding gun owners agree with is that people that commit violent crimes with guns should be severely punished

Well bill, like making the background checks more extensive - longer waiting periods, making the buyer at the gun shop responsible for the ownership of the gun through its entire life cycle - with checks, until it officially sold to someone else, who then also goes through the same checks.

It won't eliminate the problem, but it'll be an improvement on the current situation and the ease that any moron with a few bucks can arm themselves legally and illegally.

It is the ease of access to legal guns and the sheer number of legal guns which make it so easy and cheap for the criminal and insane to get hold of.

Not sure why that mental leap is so difficult. I'm starting to think there's more than just a practical attachment to your guns.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 10:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Statistics clearly and irrefutably demonstrate that communities with stricter gun laws far more often than not endure less gun violence than communities with less fettered access to firearms.  You can't deny that reality however much you try to NG.

For those that don't think stricter, enforced gun laws with greater penalties for "straw" purchasers, those that do not secure their guns properly, etc., will help I have one simple question: Do you have any idea whatsoever what a syllogism is? We're lead to believe you don't since you're in denial of irrefutable facts.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 10:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well the simple fact here is that there is often an urban rural divide on these laws meaning you are comparing apples and oranges when trying to say that guns make you safer.

You have to compare like with like.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 10:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The gun logic on firearm restriction is akin to saying that murder should not be outlawed since people commit murder anyway.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 11:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 12:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Dec. 29 2012, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Statistics clearly and irrefutably demonstrate that communities with stricter gun laws far more often than not endure less gun violence than communities with less fettered access to firearms.  You can't deny that reality however much you try to NG.

For those that don't think stricter, enforced gun laws with greater penalties for "straw" purchasers, those that do not secure their guns properly, etc., will help I have one simple question: Do you have any idea whatsoever what a syllogism is? We're lead to believe you don't since you're in denial of irrefutable facts.

DC,

This table seems to suggest otherwise (look for example at Texas and California or Indiana and Maryland or Illinois and Florida):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....y_state

Regards,
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 1:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Doesn't seem to suggest that at all, unless you cherry pick which states you want to focus on. Oh that's right, you did.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 2:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Dec. 29 2012, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Statistics clearly and irrefutably demonstrate that communities with stricter gun laws far more often than not endure less gun violence than communities with less fettered access to firearms.  You can't deny that reality however much you try to NG.

Let's see....Chicago had 500 murders this year, and Illinois has as strict gun laws as anywhere

Washington D.C. is not quite that bad...only 2300 in the last 11 years

Juarez is a real safe place and all weapons are illegal there

Englands violent crime rate is higher than in the US

Where are these statistics you speak of....they may not be comprehensive :)


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 2:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Dec. 29 2012, 10:46 am)
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The gun logic on firearm restriction is akin to saying that murder should not be outlawed since people commit murder anyway.

More like you don't need to pass additional laws making murder illegal. You  can certainly increasse the penalty for the existing crimes but why add additional laws to make it "more illegal"

Kind of like "hate crimes"

Who cares if someone was hateful....prosecute them for the crime they committed and punish them severely


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 3:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Englands violent crime rate is higher than in the US

What is the murder rate in Britain??  How does the total murders in Britain last year compare to the total murders in the US?

How do gun deaths in the US compare to gun deaths in the UK??

I guess you can try, but even you can't make some statistics lie.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 4:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Dec. 29 2012, 3:29 pm)
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Englands violent crime rate is higher than in the US

What is the murder rate in Britain??  How does the total murders in Britain last year compare to the total murders in the US?

How do gun deaths in the US compare to gun deaths in the UK??

I guess you can try, but even you can't make some statistics lie.

He'd rather compare apples to oranges.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 5:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hopefully shadow purchasers will be prosecuted. Tried and when properly convicted sentenced to prison time commensurate with the crimes commited using the weapons they purchased.
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(HighGravity @ Dec. 29 2012, 1:01 pm)
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Doesn't seem to suggest that at all, unless you cherry pick which states you want to focus on. Oh that's right, you did.

What states with similar populations and levels of urbanization support your case?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 6:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

oops.  double post
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 6:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thing is that with the matrix of laws, as we have been through before three, its incredibly easy to get guns anywhere in the us, so the variable record is not access to guns.

For restrictions to work they need to be applied universally across the US. DC, for example. You can go to va, literally a walk across a bridge over the Potomac, and get the guns you like, or at least know a source over there, and get the guns you like.

Its the vast amount of guns out there in the nation that create the illegal gun problem. You argue against any controls - as does the NRA, so you have created the problem. The selfish, short- sighted little world of the American gun enthusiast.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 29 2012, 6:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And we also now have the fact that 40% of gun sales are off the books.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 30 2012, 8:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Land Rover
QUOTE
Its the vast amount of guns out there in the nation that create the illegal gun problem.


The word VAST is significant. I can see that you, and others in the forum are gradually coming around.

The word VAST hints that there are too many guns. Carrying this logic a bit further and you conclude that fewer guns is better - and that zero guns is even better. Note that zero guns can only be obtained by disarming the police too, as in London. Any gun can be stolen, purchased by a "straw" purchaser, etc.

Logic compels us to conclude that any gun can become an illegal gun - and part of the illegal gun problem.

It may take a few decades as Austrailia's ongoing gun elimination experience  demonstrates. But nobody will be satisfied until there are zero guns.
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