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Topic: Does This Make Any Sense at All?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 22 2013, 1:59 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A 5 year old kindergartener brought her "bubble gun" to school and got herself a ten-day suspension (later shortened to two).  Makes no sense to me.  Read more here.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 22 2013, 8:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Complete insanity.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 12:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gotta be careful. No telling how damage a rugrat can manage with bubbles.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 1:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

She must be a REPUBLICAN!!!  Ban her make a law not allowing any Republicans near school!!  What an "independent," you say? therefore must be a REPUB!  Ban them repubs - pure evil I say, LMAO!

Sorry, folks in my opinion have become increasingly crazy and there is not any commonsense left especially in our government.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 2:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not nearly as crazy as thinking that all teachers should carry guns in their classrooms.

Some folks are trying to take steps to ratchet down our culture of violence, and of course it starts with the kids before junior high.  They are not thinking that a bubble gun can hurt anyone, just attempting to get the point across that pointing any gun at any human is not acceptable behavior.  Ever.

Much like education efforts to make smoking unacceptable, which started with seemingly ridiculous statements 40 years ago, but which is now very effective and has turned smoking from being okay, to being not okay.  

We have gone from a country where smoking was the norm to a country where only about 20% smoke, and they  are mostly older people.  A look at the history:

Tobacco use became an ingrained habit in the Unites States (US) following the First World War [1], with per capita tobacco consumption increasing from six pounds in the 1880s, to approximately 13 pounds per person in the mid 20th century [2]. By this time cigarette smoking was the norm, and a large proportion of American physicians, similar to the general population, were smokers. Increasing public anxiety led to various advertising campaigns referring directly to physicians, in an attempt to assure consumers that tobacco products were safe [3,4]. Various American medical journals also carried tobacco advertisements during this period [5], although such practices were not limited to the US [6,7]. By the mid 1950s however, amidst growing public concern, tobacco industry strategists had determined that physicians were no longer credible in cigarette advertising, and commercials incorporating doctors began to slowly disappear [4]. Aside from increasing awareness within the medical community and their removal from advertising campaigns, many changes in the national smoking demographic were also catalysed by the release of the Surgeon General's landmark report in 1964 [8], where it was unequivocally decided that smoking was a health hazard of sufficient importance in the United States to warrant remedial action. The role of the American medical profession in meeting this challenge was therefore, abundantly clear.

http://www.tobaccoinduceddiseases.com/content/4/1/9

I don't think it will work at all, but I do understand the motivation of parents and school administrators who are trying to change a pervasive culture of violence that prevails in America today.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 2:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

wEST Said "Not nearly as crazy as thinking that all teachers should carry guns in their classrooms."

Exactly - another harebrained crazy idea!  Teachers, are what?  teachers, not infantry!  Teach children not promote craziness as we all see daily in our lives.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 4:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The problem was that the "Bubble Gun" was fully automatic with a high capacity magazine.  Definitely an assault rifle.

Ben


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 5:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hard to say.  The school district's line, for now, is:

QUOTE
Nestico did not respond to a request Monday from CNN for comment. The superintendent's office for the Mount Carmel Area School District did issue a statement, stating that "by law we cannot officially comment on the specifics," while expressing confidence that the story circulating in the media "may not be consistent with the facts."

It may be a school district acting out of line.  Then again it may be the news media got the facts a little wrong the the story sounds more hysterical than it actually is.  Not that we'll hear much about it when it's clarified.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 5:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Many, if not most, schools have a zero-tolerance policy regarding violence, threats of violence, etc.  I don't think they have a choice -- they have to follow the protocol.  

Imo, you can't have it both ways.  If you want schools to police the kids, then you have to expect them to cross every t and dot every i.  Otherwise, when something happens, they're asked why the red flags weren't noticed, why the warnings/complaints weren't followed up, etc.

It seems to me that most parents are in favor of the zero-tolerance policy except when it's applied to their own kids because they "know" their kids would never actually threaten anyone...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 6:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jan. 23 2013, 5:20 pm)
QUOTE
Many, if not most, schools have a zero-tolerance policy regarding violence, threats of violence, etc.  I don't think they have a choice -- they have to follow the protocol.  

Imo, you can't have it both ways.  If you want schools to police the kids, then you have to expect them to cross every t and dot every i.  Otherwise, when something happens, they're asked why the red flags weren't noticed, why the warnings/complaints weren't followed up, etc.

It seems to me that most parents are in favor of the zero-tolerance policy except when it's applied to their own kids because they "know" their kids would never actually threaten anyone...

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

When the headlines read, "5yo week-long suspension for talking about bubbles" it sounds like the work of an incredibly stupid school district, but what's the reality here?  It's the zero-tolerance policy that's driving this sort of reaction, and quite frankly that's the best approach the school can take.

No student should be exempted from this policy, even a 5yo.  However, I think it would have been FAR more appropriate, for those involved with the punishment for violating this policy, to examine this instance completely before issuing the suspension.  It was quite obvious to the school counselor that this little girl was not deranged, and upon learning that the discussion involved a "bubble gun" I think a frank talk between her, her teacher, and her parents about the potential danger guns can cause would have delivered the intended "lesson" far better.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jan. 23 2013, 2:20 pm)
QUOTE
Many, if not most, schools have a zero-tolerance policy regarding violence, threats of violence, etc.  I don't think they have a choice -- they have to follow the protocol.  

Imo, you can't have it both ways.  If you want schools to police the kids, then you have to expect them to cross every t and dot every i.  Otherwise, when something happens, they're asked why the red flags weren't noticed, why the warnings/complaints weren't followed up, etc.

It seems to me that most parents are in favor of the zero-tolerance policy except when it's applied to their own kids because they "know" their kids would never actually threaten anyone...

School administrators and teachers are paid to exercise judgment.  Otherwise, we can just have machines scan, track and teach our kids.

But I am not placing all blame on schools.  Zero tolerance is idiotic.  Has anyone tried "zero tolerance" parenting on a kid? Think back to our own formative years and imagine what we would be like under a "zero tolerance" system!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 6:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:24 pm)
QUOTE
Zero tolerance is idiotic.  Has anyone tried "zero tolerance" parenting on a kid? Think back to our own formative years and imagine what we would be like under a "zero tolerance" system!

Is zero-tolerance the issue, or is it the punishment that's doled out in response to that policy?

I can't imagine a school having partial tolerance for guns, violence, drugs, etc.  I think the issue here is that the punishment didn't really fit the (non)crime.

ETA: I think zero-tolerance parenting works quite well, and is probably practiced by many.  A parent could have a zero-tolerance policy for underage drinking or marijuana use - meaning if they ever catch their kid doing either one, a punishment will be doled out.  The severity of that punishment can then be aligned with the child's level of misbehavior.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 6:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Jan. 23 2013, 3:28 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:24 pm)
QUOTE
Zero tolerance is idiotic.  Has anyone tried "zero tolerance" parenting on a kid? Think back to our own formative years and imagine what we would be like under a "zero tolerance" system!

Is zero-tolerance the issue, or is it the punishment that's doled out in response to that policy?

I can't imagine a school having partial tolerance for guns, violence, drugs, etc.  I think the issue here is that the punishment didn't really fit the (non)crime.

I think an example of zero tolerance gone awry is this:  a grade schooler brings in an aspirin.  That is a drug, and the school subscribes idiotically to a policy that does not distinguish between drugs.  And the student is suspended for a week.  I recall reading about a case like this.

But how can one possibly draw up a comprehensive list of what's allowed vs. not allowed?  We don't!  We let the adults (i.e. the teachers, the school principal) deal with the occurrences, using established guidelines and their own professional judgment.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 6:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:32 pm)
QUOTE

(EastieTrekker @ Jan. 23 2013, 3:28 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:24 pm)
QUOTE
Zero tolerance is idiotic.  Has anyone tried "zero tolerance" parenting on a kid? Think back to our own formative years and imagine what we would be like under a "zero tolerance" system!

Is zero-tolerance the issue, or is it the punishment that's doled out in response to that policy?

I can't imagine a school having partial tolerance for guns, violence, drugs, etc.  I think the issue here is that the punishment didn't really fit the (non)crime.

I think an example of zero tolerance gone awry is this:  a grade schooler brings in an aspirin.  That is a drug, and the school subscribes idiotically to a policy that does not distinguish between drugs.  And the student is suspended for a week.  I recall reading about a case like this.

I'm in total agreement with that statement.  A kid should not be automatically suspended for a week for having aspirin, but here's the catch.

Teacher sees said student give one of those "white pills" to another student.  For all the teacher knows it could have just been aspirin, or it could have been Ecstasy.  Now that the other student has consumed the pill, the teacher can no longer identify the substance so both students are suspended under the zero-tolerance policy.  That's why the policy exists in the first place.

Stupid for suspending a student with aspirin, yes absolutely. But I'm sure with a note from his/her parents, and a visit to the school nurse before class would have avoided all the commotion.  A little rigid? Yes, it is.  And should teacher's/administrator's have the flexibility to reduce punishment (to nothing if appropriate)? Yes, absolutely, but I'd still argue the policy is good.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 6:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Jan. 23 2013, 3:38 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:32 pm)
QUOTE

(EastieTrekker @ Jan. 23 2013, 3:28 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:24 pm)
QUOTE
Zero tolerance is idiotic.  Has anyone tried "zero tolerance" parenting on a kid? Think back to our own formative years and imagine what we would be like under a "zero tolerance" system!

Is zero-tolerance the issue, or is it the punishment that's doled out in response to that policy?

I can't imagine a school having partial tolerance for guns, violence, drugs, etc.  I think the issue here is that the punishment didn't really fit the (non)crime.

I think an example of zero tolerance gone awry is this:  a grade schooler brings in an aspirin.  That is a drug, and the school subscribes idiotically to a policy that does not distinguish between drugs.  And the student is suspended for a week.  I recall reading about a case like this.

I'm in total agreement with that statement.  A kid should not be automatically suspended for a week for having aspirin, but here's the catch.

Teacher sees said student give one of those "white pills" to another student.  For all the teacher knows it could have just been aspirin, or it could have been Ecstasy.  Now that the other student has consumed the pill, the teacher can no longer identify the substance so both students are suspended under the zero-tolerance policy.  That's why the policy exists in the first place.

Stupid for suspending a student with aspirin, yes absolutely. But I'm sure with a note from his/her parents, and a visit to the school nurse before class would have avoided all the commotion.  A little rigid? Yes, it is.  And should teacher's/administrator's have the flexibility to reduce punishment (to nothing if appropriate)? Yes, absolutely, but I'd still argue the policy is good.

I think we are in agreement.  We need guidelines, but we also need teachers to make appropriate judgment calls.

The aspirin example was reported as a case where the type of drug was determined.  In lieu of punishing (suspending) the kid -- the parents should have been called in -- so proper directions will be followed going forward.

OTOH, a kid passing out mystery white pills?  The school will have to look deeper.  But that's why teachers and principals are trained professionals.

To me, teachers and administrators who choose to do 'everything by the book' are doing both society and their own profession a great disservice.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 6:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:46 pm)
QUOTE
I think we are in agreement.  We need guidelines, but we also need teachers to make appropriate judgment calls.

To me, teachers and administrators who choose to do 'everything by the book' are doing both society and their own profession a great disservice.

Agreed  :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 7:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.neoflux.com/content/horrible/

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 7:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Jan. 23 2013, 5:22 pm)
QUOTE

Spectacular source.

Nearly all the links are broken in there, or go to pages that don't display anything like the headlines noted.  Only 1 of the first 10 links actually works.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 9:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE

I think we are in agreement.  We need guidelines, but we also need teachers to make appropriate judgment calls.


I agree with this, if police are smart enough to do this surely teacher can.

But I have to disagree that this is even the issue.  Kids have played with toy guns forever, and that is far different than threat real violence.  And how is a 5 year old suppose to know that it is ok at home, but not AFTER school while waiting for a bus?  

Now I could see them telling her parents they don't want this type of toy IN schools, though that would be more because it might be disruptive etc.

Terrorism, can anyone say that with a straight face, from a toy gun, much less a bubble gun. Next they will round kids up for having snow ball fights.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 9:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Terrorism, can anyone say that with a straight face, from a toy gun, much less a bubble gun. Next they will round kids up for having snow ball fights.


No, as I pointed out above, it is not about this being terrorism, it is about changing from a culture of violence, even pretend violence, to a culture of non-violence.

If not with strict rules for young impressionable children, how do you propose to make the change from a culture of extreme violence to a culture of at least some level of non-violence?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 23 2013, 10:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:46 pm)
QUOTE
I think we are in agreement.  We need guidelines, but we also need teachers to make appropriate judgment calls.

Ahh... well, you've obviously never seen one of the tomes that specify the schools' disciplinary policies.  There's typically a very explicit protocol for handling any reported threats of violence, including verbal conversations that are overheard.

Teachers aren't usually allowed to make "judgement calls" because unilateral judgement calls are often how things fall through the cracks.

I actually feel pretty strongly about this.  School systems spend a lot of money to print/distribute or make available these disciplinary rules and policies.  It's our job to read them and tell our kids what they can and can't do and what the consequences can be.  If we're serious about making our school safer for our kids, this is the very least we can do.


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(wwwest @ Jan. 23 2013, 6:58 pm)
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Terrorism, can anyone say that with a straight face, from a toy gun, much less a bubble gun. Next they will round kids up for having snow ball fights.


No, as I pointed out above, it is not about this being terrorism, it is about changing from a culture of violence, even pretend violence, to a culture of non-violence.

If not with strict rules for young impressionable children, how do you propose to make the change from a culture of extreme violence to a culture of at least some level of non-violence?

Well maybe that is what it means to you, but

QUOTE
Soon after, she was sent home after being issued a 10-day suspension for a "terroristic threat," as indicated on the suspension form signed by Mount Carmel Area Elementary School Principal Susan Nestico.


---------------

I am doubtful about it as far as changing a culture of violence.

For one kids played with guns long before the current problems.  

Then there is TV and movies, and play after school etc.

Still I know so parents don't let their kids play with guns. It would be interesting to see what the effect is.

But I admit I am not a psychologist or anything so I suppose there is a case to be made there.

-------------------

Still why take this out on a 5 year old?  If it was an older kid maybe.  But a 5 year should be told by their parents, bus driver teacher etc. not to bring this toy, and this would not amount to suspension.  I mean are we trying to tell a 5 year that ignorance of the school rules is no excuse?  And where were the parents when she got on the bus etc.


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Privatize the school system and get DC out of the picture.

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(gunslinger @ Jan. 24 2013, 6:34 am)
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Privatize the school system and get DC out of the picture.

You're not even willing to pay a two dollar fee to camp in a public park. How exactly would you have gotten your kids through school if it was a pay as you go system?
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(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 23 2013, 5:53 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Jan. 23 2013, 5:22 pm)
QUOTE

Spectacular source.

Nearly all the links are broken in there, or go to pages that don't display anything like the headlines noted.  Only 1 of the first 10 links actually works.

I clicked several at random before posting and most seemed to work but I'll admit I didn't go past the first blurb.

Sorry.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 9:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

For one kids played with guns long before the current problems.  



Yes, absolutely!  That is a big part of the problem.

Our culture of extreme violence began and grew with wiping out the native populations of both North and South America, and with practicing slavery for over 300 years, and then progressed to becoming THE world power which enforces our value system and ideas about democracy throughout the world with overwhelming warfare.

Changing that culture of violence will be nearly impossible, but you have to start small. the journey of 10,000 miles starts with a single step.

What makes you think that the 5 year old had not been told to leave the bubble gun at home, to never, ever bring it to school??  

Nobody likes to test the limits more than a 5 year old, and no one needs to learn the consequences of violating the rules more than a 5 year old.

I know because I am spending a week in a condo and on the ski slopes with a 5 year old granddaughter!!


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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
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Trixie (RIP)
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 10:01 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 22 2013, 10:59 am)
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A 5 year old kindergartener brought her "bubble gun" to school and got herself a ten-day suspension (later shortened to two).  Makes no sense to me.  Read more here.

I don't expect anything to do with guns & schools  to make much sense these days.   Not even if it's just a bubble gun with a five year old.

-Don-


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-Don- South San Francisco, CA or Cold Springs Valley, NV (near Reno).
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