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Topic: Even Catholic Hospitals Recognize the Truth, Fetuses are not people< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 12:13 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This should give Ben a little project to work upon:

Lori Stodghill was 31-one years old, seven-months pregnant with twin boys and feeling sick when she arrived at St. Thomas More hospital in Cañon City on New Year’s Day 2006. She was vomiting and short of breath and she passed out as she was being wheeled into an examination room. Medical staff tried to resuscitate her but, as became clear only later, a main artery feeding her lungs was clogged and the clog led to a massive heart attack. Stodghill’s obstetrician, Dr. Pelham Staples, who also happened to be the obstetrician on call for emergencies that night, never answered a page. His patient died at the hospital less than an hour after she arrived and her twins died in her womb.

In the aftermath of the tragedy, Stodghill’s husband Jeremy, a prison guard, filed a wrongful-death lawsuit on behalf of himself and the couple’s then-two-year-old daughter Elizabeth. Staples should have made it to the hospital, his lawyers argued, or at least instructed the frantic emergency room staff to perform a caesarian-section. The procedure likely would not have saved the mother, a testifying expert said, but it may have saved the twins.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....83.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 12:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I also recall a case where a pregnant woman ticketed for "driving alone" on a HOV lane sued because her fetus was a person in its own right.  And she won -- in a secular court!!  So obviously fetuses are people??

C'mon, wwest... you know how "much" people (and organizations) take responsibility when money is at stake!  Whatever defense will get them out of paying is whatever defense they will latch onto.

A justification for abortion in your example and a justification against abortion in mine?  No, both cases just reflect the sad state of affairs in our society today -- of which our churches, of course, are a part thereof.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 12:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

" Catholic Health’s lawyers effectively turned the Church directives on their head. Catholic organizations have for decades fought to change federal and state laws that fail to protect “unborn persons,” and Catholic Health’s lawyers in this case had the chance to set precedent bolstering anti-abortion legal arguments. Instead, they are arguing state law protects doctors from liability concerning unborn fetuses on grounds that those fetuses are not persons with legal rights.

As Jason Langley, an attorney with Denver-based Kennedy Childs, argued in one of the briefs he filed for the defense, the court “should not overturn the long-standing rule in Colorado that the term ‘person,’ as is used in the Wrongful Death Act, encompasses only individuals born alive. Colorado state courts define ‘person’ under the Act to include only those born alive. Therefore Plaintiffs cannot maintain wrongful death claims based on two unborn fetuses.”

The Catholic Health attorneys have so far won decisions from Fremont County District Court Judge David M. Thorson and now-retired Colorado Court of Appeals Judge Arthur Roy."

Interesting viewpoint. But given the Church's historical view of "ensoulment" and abortion I'm not at all surprised.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 12:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's a 7-month fetus out of the womb:



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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 12:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I always love to see the contradictions when religious leaders switch from fantasy to reality, like their own bank account.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Jan. 24 2013, 9:37 am)
QUOTE
I always love to see the contradictions when religious leaders switch from fantasy to reality, like their own bank account.

Yep... so much easier to preach.  But it's human nature too, isn't it?  And so you can find this in all types of leaders and organizations...

We could lash out like a bunch of enraged teenagers; you know, gee, dad, don't you lecture me about drugs -- you used them too when you were my age, yaddy, yaddy, yadda...

Or we can be adults and analyze the issues -- tell right from wrong and do the right thing -- and not use the failings of others to rationalize our own.  Not saying you are doing this, but making a general statement.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jan. 24 2013, 9:31 am)
QUOTE
Here's a 7-month fetus out of the womb:


Many still insist that is not a human being.  It's just a bunch of cells, no different from mom's hair or nail cells -- to do as she pleases.  To use "birth" to define a human life is so completely arbitrary -- and still some folks latch on -- to justify their "ownership" of another human life.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 1:05 pm)
QUOTE
Many still insist that is not a human being.  It's just a bunch of cells, no different from mom's hair or nail cells -- to do as she pleases.  To use "birth" to define a human life is so completely arbitrary -- and still some folks latch on -- to justify their "ownership" of another human life.

OH PU-LEASE.  Show me who this "many" are.  Show me ten real people who would look at that picture and "insist" that it's "not a human being.  It's just a bunch of cells, no different from mom's hair or nail cells -- to do as she pleases."

I am so calling your bluff.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE



Here's a 7-month fetus out of the womb:



Many still insist that is not a human being.


Have you ever known one single person who thinks that a 7 month fetus is not a human being, or who advocates that seven month fetuses should be aborted??


I live in an extreme liberal family, with the strongest feminists I have ever known, and not one of them would say or think, or support such a ridiculous position.

We all think that a  woman should be able to choose, freely and easily, during the first trimester of an unwanted pregnancy.

Do you see the difference??


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

@Tigerfan:

Lots of states have passed restrictions on later-term abortions.  I don't recall any that passed easily.  "Pro choicers" fought them tooth and nail each and every time, no?

As well, third trimester abortions are relatively few in number -- not because "pro choicers" acknowledge any separate personhood -- but much more because of two other factors:

1.  Most mothers unprepared or unwilling to raise a child would have gotten their abortions well before the third trimester.  Self selection, if you will.

2.  Third trimester abortions carry their own medical risks -- to the mother.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Jan. 24 2013, 1:15 pm)
QUOTE


Here's a 7-month fetus out of the womb:



Many still insist that is not a human being.


Have you ever known one single person who thinks that a 7 month fetus is not a human being, or who advocates that seven month fetuses should be aborted??


I live in an extreme liberal family, with the strongest feminists I have ever known, and not one of them would say or think, or support such a ridiculous position.

We all think that a  woman should be able to choose, freely and easily, during the first trimester of an unwanted pregnancy.

Do you see the difference??

The babies/fetuses in the referenced article were at 7 months. You're topic title states that "the truth" is that "fetuses are not people".


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Jan. 24 2013, 10:15 am)
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We all think that a  woman should be able to choose, freely and easily, during the first trimester of an unwanted pregnancy.

Do you see the difference??

I see the difference.  But many pro choices do not -- and will fight you tooth and nail for second, and even third trimester abortions.  You know, it's their  body, and so on and so forth.

Tigerfan seems to be saying that most everyone recognizes "personhood" by 7 months and third trimester abortions are rare.  She is right about the rarity -- but as I noted above, the rarity is NOT because abortionists recognize a separate life in a 7 or 8 months old fetus.  Many still don't.

Perhaps Tigerfan can point me to a pro-abortion (pro choice) site where they discourage third trimester abortion because, 'c'mon, the fetus is now a human being and we really shouldn't anymore'...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The babies/fetuses in the referenced article were at 7 months. You're topic title states that "the truth" is that "fetuses are not people".


I made the silly assumption that readers would be able to understand that the title was ironic and sarcastic.

I apologize for over estimating your perception level.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Jan. 24 2013, 1:36 pm)
QUOTE
The babies/fetuses in the referenced article were at 7 months. You're topic title states that "the truth" is that "fetuses are not people".


I made the silly assumption that readers would be able to understand that the title was ironic and sarcastic.

I apologize for over estimating your perception level.

Yeah... the death of a mother and her unborn twins... that's some funny $@#%.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 1:16 pm)
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@Tigerfan:

Lots of states have passed restrictions on later-term abortions.  I don't recall any that passed easily.  "Pro choicers" fought them tooth and nail each and every time, no?

As well, third trimester abortions are relatively few in number -- not because "pro choicers" acknowledge any separate personhood -- but much more because of two other factors:

1.  Most mothers unprepared or unwilling to raise a child would have gotten their abortions well before the third trimester.  Self selection, if you will.

2.  Third trimester abortions carry their own medical risks -- to the mother.

Yeah, thought so.  This is just another one of your logic leaps with absolutely nothing to back up your statement.  Really, for a seemingly smart guy, you really like to play dumb... and think that we won't notice.  It's actually insulting.

I have no idea where you got your third trimester abortion "facts" but you can't be more wrong.  There's not a single 7-month pregnant woman who would not acknowledge that she's carrying a BABY.  NONE.

"Pro choicers" DON'T decide if, who or when a woman decides to have an abortion.  That's the whole point of being pro-choice.  The fact that there are few late-term abortions has nothing to do with what "pro-choicers" feel about "separate personhood"; unlike anti-choice advocates, we don't make those decisions for other women.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 1:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jan. 24 2013, 10:50 am)
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There's not a single 7-month pregnant woman who would not acknowledge that she's carrying a BABY.  NONE.

"Pro choicers" DON'T decide if, who or when a woman decides to have an abortion.  That's the whole point of being pro-choice.  The fact that there are few late-term abortions has nothing to do with what "pro-choicers" feel about "separate personhood"; unlike anti-choice advocates, we don't make those decisions for other women.

All I ask, Tigerfan, are links to pro choice websites that discuss third trimester fetuses as humans.   I ask because it is my impression that for women who choose a late abortion for any reason whatsoever -- pro choice organizations would still have no issues whatsoever -- other than listing concerns about added medical risks to the mother !

For any organization to acknowledge human lives (say by the third trimester as you contend)  -- and then to be completely neutral about the keeping or taking of lives -- that would be absolutely bizarre, if not downright evil.  So, given these organizations support "pro choice" all the way -- regardless -- it can only follow that they hold no view at all to fetuses being human persons, ever!  Unless they are evil -- which I don't believe they are.

So why not just let people be?  Because when it comes to taking the lives of others -- the law must step in -- whether the perpetrator is a woman or a man.  Killing on demand should not be offered as a choice to anyone.  And crude denials of personhood is no defense.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 2:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I ask because it is my impression that for women who choose a late abortion for any reason whatsoever -- pro choice organizations would have no issues whatsoever -- other than listing concerns about added medical risks to the mother!


I think that you are probably just arguing for the sake of argument, but maybe not.

Third Trimester Abortions

Despite the claims of some anti-abortion activists, women have access to abortion in the third trimester only in extreme circumstances. Fewer than 2% of abortions are provided at 21 weeks or after, and they are extremely rare after 26 weeks of pregnancy. Very few abortions are provided in the third trimester, and they are generally limited to cases of severe fetal abnormalities or situations when the life or health of the pregnant woman is seriously threatened.


http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/after_12_weeks.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

wwest:

I read that in my own research!  See my response to Tigerfan above (post #10).  The reasons for the dramatic drop in third trimester abortions appear due to:

1.  state level legislation -- which pro choices fought against each and every time!

2.  self selection -- most women who want an abortion get them early on.

3.  added medical risks -- to the mother.


Tigerfan was trying to make it out like moms and pro choice organizations acknowledge the humanity of a fetus by the third trimester and that explains the dramatic drop.  I say BS -- in reference to pro choice organizations!  I cannot imagine an organization formally acknowledging that a third trimester fetus is now a human person -- and then in the same breath continue to view its abortion still a matter of choice!

As for a mother who views her third-trimester young as a baby already -- yeah, I can absolutely see that too.  It's the "pro choice" organizations who keep up their denials to maintain their power of choice!  Can't have it both ways, you know...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 2:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 1:54 pm)
QUOTE

(TigerFan @ Jan. 24 2013, 10:50 am)
QUOTE
There's not a single 7-month pregnant woman who would not acknowledge that she's carrying a BABY.  NONE.

"Pro choicers" DON'T decide if, who or when a woman decides to have an abortion.  That's the whole point of being pro-choice.  The fact that there are few late-term abortions has nothing to do with what "pro-choicers" feel about "separate personhood"; unlike anti-choice advocates, we don't make those decisions for other women.

So, please include links to support your contention above -- or we'll just agree to end it here.

LOL... I'm supposed to provide links to prove that a 7-month pregnant woman would call it a "baby"?  Really?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 2:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Interesting, Tigerfan...

You must know by now how often I "word smith" my posts!  I thought I edited my post #16 quite early on?  But you still read the original version...

I ask for links to organizations in #16 -- and I explained further the reason why I ask in #18.  I also agree with you that most all mom's would perceive/feel that their fetuses are their babies -- certainly by the third semester (if not much, much earlier).  No need to show me links on that one.  :)


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(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 9:20 am)
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I also recall a case where a pregnant woman ticketed for "driving alone" on a HOV lane sued because her fetus was a person in its own right.  And she won -- in a secular court!!  So obviously fetuses are people??

C'mon, wwest... you know how "much" people (and organizations) take responsibility when money is at stake!  Whatever defense will get them out of paying is whatever defense they will latch onto.

A justification for abortion in your example and a justification against abortion in mine?  No, both cases just reflect the sad state of affairs in our society today -- of which our churches, of course, are a part thereof.

I would love to see that citation.

Nevermind. I found it. She lost. So has every other attempt.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 2:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Good to know she lost, YG; all this time, I thought she won.   Hate cheaters.  IMHO, pregnant moms using HOV lanes are not doing so in accordance with the purpose or spirit of carpooling.

But of course, if we are talking about our secular society recognizing fetuses as humans, there are plenty of cases where folks who killed pregnant women were charged (rightfully!) for double homicides.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 2:25 pm)
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Interesting, Tigerfan...

You must know by now how often I "word smith" my posts!  I thought I edited my post #16 quite early on?  But you still read the original version...

I ask for links to organizations in #16 -- and I explained further the reason why I ask in #18.  I also agree with you that most all mom's would perceive/feel that their fetuses are their babies -- certainly by the third semester (if not much, much earlier).  No need to show me links on that one.  :)

I am not so concerned about the very few abortions performed on fetuses in their third trimester.   :;):

Actually, I don't, and really don't expect someone to pretty much re-write a previous post after other responses have been added.

This is my personal feeling about being "pro choice".  I believe that reproductive decisions that a woman makes should be between her and her doctor.  And that includes abortion.  I also believe that a doctor is obligated, by law, to protect life.  I think a woman should have the right to seek an abortion, unrestricted, in the first trimester.  I also think that a doctor is obligated to refuse to provide an abortion in the last trimester without sufficient cause.

I'm quite confident that any legal definitions about fetal "personhood" would have no effect on late-term abortions.  Pro-choice advocates resist any legal restriction strictly for political reasons, because it's seen as an incremental step or a "chipping away" of abortion rights.  It doesn't reflect their feelings about fetal development or pregnancies.  The reality is that women in the third trimester don't arbitrarily seek abortions and doctors don't provide them.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 11:36 am)
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Good to know she lost, YG; all this time, I thought she won.   Hate cheaters.  IMHO, pregnant moms using HOV lanes are not doing so in accordance with the purpose or spirit of carpooling.

But of course, if we are talking about our secular society recognizing fetuses as humans, there are plenty of cases where folks who killed pregnant women were charged (rightfully!) for double homicides.

I agree. I also don't think you should be able to use the HOV lane unless the other person in the car with you is a licensed driver.

They're created to reduce traffic congestion - your 5 year old is not creating traffic congestion. Neither is your uncle that can't drive anyway.


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(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 1:02 pm)
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Yep... so much easier to preach.  

Yes, it is. However, if you are going to try and force your belief system onto others, you should follow it or expect people to discredit you.

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(kyle2193 @ Jan. 24 2013, 12:01 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 1:02 pm)
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Yep... so much easier to preach.  

Yes, it is. However, if you are going to try and force your belief system onto others, you should follow it or expect people to discredit you.

Which is why we should be careful about forcing anything on anyone.  Speaking for myself, I want our laws to force it so one cannot take another's life.

As for our own lives... regardless of anybody's personal beliefs... I think we should all have full legal rights to commit suicide, to refuse medical treatment, and to euthanize ourselves -- as we see fit.  What we do with our own lives  should generally be our own choice.  But we don't infringe on the rights of others.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 3:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jan. 24 2013, 11:57 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 24 2013, 2:25 pm)
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Interesting, Tigerfan...

You must know by now how often I "word smith" my posts!  I thought I edited my post #16 quite early on?  But you still read the original version...

I ask for links to organizations in #16 -- and I explained further the reason why I ask in #18.  I also agree with you that most all mom's would perceive/feel that their fetuses are their babies -- certainly by the third semester (if not much, much earlier).  No need to show me links on that one.  :)

I am not so concerned about the very few abortions performed on fetuses in their third trimester.   :;):

Actually, I don't, and really don't expect someone to pretty much re-write a previous post after other responses have been added.

This is my personal feeling about being "pro choice".  I believe that reproductive decisions that a woman makes should be between her and her doctor.  And that includes abortion.  I also believe that a doctor is obligated, by law, to protect life.  I think a woman should have the right to seek an abortion, unrestricted, in the first trimester.  I also think that a doctor is obligated to refuse to provide an abortion in the last trimester without sufficient cause.

I'm quite confident that any legal definitions about fetal "personhood" would have no effect on late-term abortions.  Pro-choice advocates resist any legal restriction strictly for political reasons, because it's seen as an incremental step or a "chipping away" of abortion rights.  It doesn't reflect their feelings about fetal development or pregnancies.  The reality is that women in the third trimester don't arbitrarily seek abortions and doctors don't provide them.

No, no, no... I rewrote mine before your response -- or at least before I read your response!

I get anal like that, and I freely admit to word smithing -- all the time -- but not after reading responses.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 4:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think all abortions should be banned except cases of rape and endangerment of the mother.
The fetus from time of conception shall belong to the government.
Upon evidence that the parents can properly care for the child, the baby shall be released to their custody. If the parents are unfit the baby shall be placed in an institution or home of qualified parents.
If at any time a second child is conceived to unworthy parents those individuals shall be sterilized.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 4:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Keep your day job.

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 24 2013, 4:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Now we know why the Pentagon is pushing for women in combat:

Nothing like giving one of the primary targets of fundamentalist oppression the opportunity to smack the oppressor in the face with the butt of an AR-15 to remind them of the error of their ways...

"Oh yeah..."personhood" this, you fundamentalist piece of crap! Women are "persons" too, and we can kick your butt!"
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