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Topic: Everyone needs the Hispanic vote!< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 4:23 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We don’t have enough jobs for the US citizens, but let’s fast track Immigration reform.


http://www.reuters.com/article....0130128

Unemployment still at 8%
Food Stamps at an all time high
Poverty climbing in the US
Wages stagnant

Great time to open the border!

Just to stay on subject, first they want to take our guns, now they want to take our jobs.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 4:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What happened to the border fence to keep those people out?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 4:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I read somewhere there are now 12 million illegals.  There is absolutely no practical way to repatriate 12 million people.  So some kind of an amnesty program is the way to go.  BUT, I'd like to see the fence up and operating before  we switch on any kind of amnesty program.  We do not want a third wave of illegals!!

Throw the damn wall up... reform "legal immigration"... then keep a tight watch on any future illegals.

But once people are in, they are in.  Denying them medical resources and denying their kids an education will only lead to big, big social problems later on.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 4:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The moment you build a 50-foot wall (even if it costs a gadzillion dollars), there will be a 51' ladder.  Hate to say it.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 4:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 28 2013, 1:34 pm)
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The moment you build a 50-foot wall (even if it costs a gadzillion dollars), there will be a 51' ladder.  Hate to say it.

Yeah, but requiring a 51' ladder will deter more illegals than not requiring one.   In any case, are we looking for better solutions (than what we've got now) or are we only looking for perfect solutions?  :;):

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 4:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No need for stone walls...just use green paper....enforce debilitating fines for any company found to hire non-citizens.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 5:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well if the fence wont work, I think the US should secede from North America.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 5:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 4:23 pm)
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We don’t have enough jobs for the US citizens, but let’s fast track Immigration reform.


http://www.reuters.com/article....0130128

Unemployment still at 8%
Food Stamps at an all time high
Poverty climbing in the US
Wages stagnant

Great time to open the border!

Just to stay on subject, first they want to take our guns, now they want to take our jobs.

Not sure what this article has to do with "opening the borders." It's referring to immigrants who are already living in the US.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 7:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sorry, “opening the border” was simply a metaphor or symbol for giving amnesty (path to citizenship reference in the article) to 11 million illegal immigrants at the expense of the American workers and taxpayers.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 7:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 1:23 pm)
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We don’t have enough jobs for the US citizens, but let’s fast track Immigration reform.


http://www.reuters.com/article....0130128

Unemployment still at 8%
Food Stamps at an all time high
Poverty climbing in the US
Wages stagnant

Great time to open the border!

Just to stay on subject, first they want to take our guns, now they want to take our jobs.

Net immigration from Mexico is currently 0 or less. Obviously a crisis.

Immigration fuels economic growth. But I guess for some people, that's the "wrong" kind of growth.

Immigrants (predominantly younger people) help to shore up SS & Medicare, by evening the demographic imbalance caused by aging Boomers. But the austerity junkies have never been big on facts, so i don't expect this to interfere with their fantasies of cutting benefits purely for the sake of cutting benefits.

And hey, don't let reality get in the way of your little nativist talking points.

ETA:

QUOTE
Sorry, “opening the border” was simply a metaphor or symbol for giving amnesty (path to citizenship reference in the article) to 11 million illegal immigrants at the expense for the benefit of the American workers and taxpayers.

Fixed it for you.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 7:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 5:06 pm)
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Sorry, “opening the border” was simply a metaphor or symbol for giving amnesty (path to citizenship reference in the article) to 11 million illegal immigrants at the expense of the American workers and taxpayers.

Oh, please.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 7:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Net Immigration? Seriously? 11 million illegal immigrants currently in the US, and you think that net immigration is somehow relevant?

Immigration fuels economic growth? Are these magic immigrants that create jobs rather than displace American workers and suppress wages? As countless studies have shown.

Are these the magic Immigrants that are shoring up SS and Medicare, not the ones dragging down public education and the social welfare system? As countless studies have shown.

In WHAT reality does allowing 11 million illegal immigrants to legally work in the US, help the 8% of Americans currently unemployed? How does it help the millions of Americans currently living in poverty? Hint…..it doesn’t it makes the problem worse.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 8:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 7:06 pm)
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Sorry, “opening the border” was simply a metaphor or symbol for giving amnesty (path to citizenship reference in the article) to 11 million illegal immigrants at the expense of the American workers and taxpayers.

So you'd prefer American retailers to have 11 million fewer customers?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 8:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 7:24 pm)
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Net Immigration? Seriously? 11 million illegal immigrants currently in the US, and you think that net immigration is somehow relevant?

Immigration fuels economic growth? Are these magic immigrants that create jobs rather than displace American workers and suppress wages? As countless studies have shown.

Are these the magic Immigrants that are shoring up SS and Medicare, not the ones dragging down public education and the social welfare system? As countless studies have shown.

In WHAT reality does allowing 11 million illegal immigrants to legally work in the US, help the 8% of Americans currently unemployed? How does it help the millions of Americans currently living in poverty? Hint…..it doesn’t it makes the problem worse.

Wow...who else are you bigoted against?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 9:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Right, anyone that puts Americans’ first has to be a bigot…..let’s completely disregard that the groups of Americans MOST adversely affected by illegal immigration are racial minorities.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 9:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So your answer is that you're prejudice against all non-Americans?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 9:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 1:23 pm)
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Just to stay on subject, first they want to take our guns, now they want to take our jobs.

Victim much?   ???

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 10:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Jan. 28 2013, 9:48 pm)
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So your answer is that you're prejudice against all non-Americans?

It is not prejudice to put the welfare of American citizens above the welfare of illegal immigrants.
The very idea that it is prejudice is nothing more than a desperate attempt to use emotion to distract from the economic fact that illegal immigration, while it might be great for the ownership class, has a negative impact on poor Americans.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 10:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 7:01 pm)
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 28 2013, 9:48 pm)
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So your answer is that you're prejudice against all non-Americans?

It is not prejudice to put the welfare of American citizens above the welfare of illegal immigrants.
The very idea that it is prejudice is nothing more than a desperate attempt to use emotion to distract from the economic fact that illegal immigration, while it might be great for the ownership class, has a negative impact on poor Americans.

Nice sounding rhetoric... but can you show us studies where Americans actively looking for minimum wage jobs as neighborhood gardeners and strawberry pickers got turned away in droves?  ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 10:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nope, but you can easily find studies that indicate that illegal immigration has a negative impact on resident wages within the same educational/skill level. It is fairly basic supply and demand. You can choose to ignore that, and focus on strawberries, but the reality is that the American worker suffers. I’m OK with putting the welfare of American workers over illegal immigrants. You seem to be OK with putting the welfare of illegal immigrants over American workers. That is where we differ. Unfortunately, our government seems to have the same priorities.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 11:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You keep ignoring the fact that many of the jobs immigrants take are jobs that Americans refuse to fill!   So you either back yourself up and show some numbers so we can have a logical, fact-based discussion -- or you can just continue getting all emotional... except that helps no one and solves nothing...

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 11:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 28 2013, 8:01 pm)
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You keep ignoring the fact that many of the jobs immigrants take are jobs that Americans refuse to fill!   So you either back yourself up and show some numbers so we can have a logical, fact-based discussion -- or you can just continue getting all emotional... except that helps no one and solves nothing...

The theory is the accepted one of supply and demand. Absent the illegal immigrants who are willing to fill those jobs at the offered (low) wages the employers would, per market forces, up the wages until they could attract the desired workforce from the stock of unemployed citizens.

The portion that is often left unstated or considered is what impact that higher overhead cost would have on the employers product. Higher cost food, construction costs and such. So while wages would go up and thus American citizens quality of life, the cost for some goods and services would also go up, negatively impacting people that purchase those items.....
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 1:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 28 2013, 8:09 pm)
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The theory is the accepted one of supply and demand. Absent the illegal immigrants who are willing to fill those jobs at the offered (low) wages the employers would, per market forces, up the wages until they could attract the desired workforce from the stock of unemployed citizens.

The portion that is often left unstated or considered is what impact that higher overhead cost would have on the employers product. Higher cost food, construction costs and such. So while wages would go up and thus American citizens quality of life, the cost for some goods and services would also go up, negatively impacting people that purchase those items.....

Indeed... and everything else being equal, there will be far fewer demands for many of the goods and services... thus contracting our industries -- and hurting other American workers.

As it stands now, illegals benefit from working here than at home (else they wouldn't come) -- and our industries benefit from the labors of illegals (else they wouldn't hire).  The "net net" is that our entire economy benefits overall -- otherwise illegal immigration wouldn't be the growth that it has been -- at least until just the last few years.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 6:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 10:01 pm)
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 28 2013, 9:48 pm)
QUOTE
So your answer is that you're prejudice against all non-Americans?

It is not prejudice to put the welfare of American citizens above the welfare of illegal immigrants.
The very idea that it is prejudice is nothing more than a desperate attempt to use emotion to distract from the economic fact that illegal immigration, while it might be great for the ownership class, has a negative impact on poor Americans.

It's prejudice to assume that members of one culture are the cause of all the ills of another culture simply because they coexist with that culture.  It's unfortunate that you're blinded by your hatred to comprehend this but then again emotional outbursts of the kind you've offered here rarely have much logic to them.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 6:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 28 2013, 10:43 pm)
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Nope, but you can easily find studies that indicate that illegal immigration has a negative impact on resident wages within the same educational/skill level. It is fairly basic supply and demand. You can choose to ignore that, and focus on strawberries, but the reality is that the American worker suffers. I’m OK with putting the welfare of American workers over illegal immigrants. You seem to be OK with putting the welfare of illegal immigrants over American workers. That is where we differ. Unfortunately, our government seems to have the same priorities.

You're leaving out the part of the equation that shows they are also consumers and producers. You keep speaking of them as if they are nothing but parasites, another sign of your inherent bigotry.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 7:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 29 2013, 1:12 am)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 28 2013, 8:09 pm)
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The theory is the accepted one of supply and demand. Absent the illegal immigrants who are willing to fill those jobs at the offered (low) wages the employers would, per market forces, up the wages until they could attract the desired workforce from the stock of unemployed citizens.

The portion that is often left unstated or considered is what impact that higher overhead cost would have on the employers product. Higher cost food, construction costs and such. So while wages would go up and thus American citizens quality of life, the cost for some goods and services would also go up, negatively impacting people that purchase those items.....

Indeed... and everything else being equal, there will be far fewer demands for many of the goods and services... thus contracting our industries -- and hurting other American workers.

As it stands now, illegals benefit from working here than at home (else they wouldn't come) -- and our industries benefit from the labors of illegals (else they wouldn't hire).  The "net net" is that our entire economy benefits overall -- otherwise illegal immigration wouldn't be the growth that it has been -- at least until just the last few years.

I do not think that there is credible evidence that a large population of unskilled/ under educated labor has a net positive effect on the American economy and social welfare system in the current economic climate.

But, let’s pretend that illegal immigrants somehow have a slight overall net positive impact even in the current economic climate.

That by extension does not indicate that it has a net overall positive effect on the group that is competing directly with them for jobs (unskilled, under educated, poor Americans…including recent legal immigrants), and that group just happens to be currently suffering the most from unemployment and wage stagnation. That is, even if illegal immigrants have a net overall positive impact on the economy by reducing consumer prices, those benefits do not offset the negative impact on unemployment and wage stagnation for those that compete with them directly.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 8:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 29 2013, 7:36 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 29 2013, 1:12 am)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 28 2013, 8:09 pm)
QUOTE
The theory is the accepted one of supply and demand. Absent the illegal immigrants who are willing to fill those jobs at the offered (low) wages the employers would, per market forces, up the wages until they could attract the desired workforce from the stock of unemployed citizens.

The portion that is often left unstated or considered is what impact that higher overhead cost would have on the employers product. Higher cost food, construction costs and such. So while wages would go up and thus American citizens quality of life, the cost for some goods and services would also go up, negatively impacting people that purchase those items.....

Indeed... and everything else being equal, there will be far fewer demands for many of the goods and services... thus contracting our industries -- and hurting other American workers.

As it stands now, illegals benefit from working here than at home (else they wouldn't come) -- and our industries benefit from the labors of illegals (else they wouldn't hire).  The "net net" is that our entire economy benefits overall -- otherwise illegal immigration wouldn't be the growth that it has been -- at least until just the last few years.

I do not think that there is credible evidence that a large population of unskilled/ under educated labor has a net positive effect on the American economy and social welfare system in the current economic climate.

But, let’s pretend that illegal immigrants somehow have a slight overall net positive impact even in the current economic climate.

That by extension does not indicate that it has a net overall positive effect on the group that is competing directly with them for jobs (unskilled, under educated, poor Americans…including recent legal immigrants), and that group just happens to be currently suffering the most from unemployment and wage stagnation. That is, even if illegal immigrants have a net overall positive impact on the economy by reducing consumer prices, those benefits do not offset the negative impact on unemployment and wage stagnation for those that compete with them directly.

So you measure the value of people only by how you can personally benefit from them?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 9:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How come some people don't have a problem posting on the Internet with a computer made by foreigners, but when they have to pay a foreigner to cut their lawn it's a big deal?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 11:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jan. 29 2013, 7:36 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jan. 29 2013, 1:12 am)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 28 2013, 8:09 pm)
QUOTE
The theory is the accepted one of supply and demand. Absent the illegal immigrants who are willing to fill those jobs at the offered (low) wages the employers would, per market forces, up the wages until they could attract the desired workforce from the stock of unemployed citizens.

The portion that is often left unstated or considered is what impact that higher overhead cost would have on the employers product. Higher cost food, construction costs and such. So while wages would go up and thus American citizens quality of life, the cost for some goods and services would also go up, negatively impacting people that purchase those items.....

Indeed... and everything else being equal, there will be far fewer demands for many of the goods and services... thus contracting our industries -- and hurting other American workers.

As it stands now, illegals benefit from working here than at home (else they wouldn't come) -- and our industries benefit from the labors of illegals (else they wouldn't hire).  The "net net" is that our entire economy benefits overall -- otherwise illegal immigration wouldn't be the growth that it has been -- at least until just the last few years.

I do not think that there is credible evidence that a large population of unskilled/ under educated labor has a net positive effect on the American economy and social welfare system in the current economic climate.

But, let’s pretend that illegal immigrants somehow have a slight overall net positive impact even in the current economic climate.

That by extension does not indicate that it has a net overall positive effect on the group that is competing directly with them for jobs (unskilled, under educated, poor Americans…including recent legal immigrants), and that group just happens to be currently suffering the most from unemployment and wage stagnation. That is, even if illegal immigrants have a net overall positive impact on the economy by reducing consumer prices, those benefits do not offset the negative impact on unemployment and wage stagnation for those that compete with them directly.

Why bother quoting the above passages by HSF and Ben, when you just ignore one of their most critical points?

If we start paying American's a more competitive wage to replace the jobs currently held by "illegal immigrants" what's going to happen to the price of food, construction, etc.?  The kind of increase in wages needed in order to bring your preferred protectionist US labor market into equilibrium would be substantial, and the likely increase in the cost of those goods and services would rise substantially as well.

That makes us all less well off.  If my paycheck can't purchase as much goods and services as it used to, that's a net loss.  That's basic economics.  Your economic example was so basic, it forgot about the impact of all the other of variables that come into play in the labor market...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 12:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

The benefits of cheap strawberries may give the majority of Americans a level of prosperity (I’m not ignoring that), but that level of prosperity is outweighed by the negative impact on those Americans that compete directly with illegal immigrants for jobs (you are ignoring that).

There are very few occupations that are comprised of a majority of illegal immigrants, and none that are comprised entirely of illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are not just “doing jobs that Americans do not want”, they are working in the same occupations as American citizens. The idea that they are not competing with American workers is simply untrue, and has no basis in reality. I would agree that many occupation that have a high level of illegal immigrants could be characterized as undesirable by American standards, but many Americans are in fact economically reliant on these undesirable occupations.

Further, illegal immigration weakens our social welfare system. Again, this puts them in direct competition with America’s poor for resources. Most illegal immigrants have a low level of education, are relegated to low paying jobs; and subsequently, have a low level of taxation. However, despite this, they somehow magically have a net positive fiscal contribution? If this was economically viable, and poverty somehow produced a net positive contribution, America’s fiscal problems will easily be solved as poverty continues to increase.

I think that in times of economic growth a strong argument can be made for the positive effects of immigration on cultural diversity, assisting individuals in escaping poverty, and providing necessary labor to extend growth. However, none of this can be accomplished in the current economic climate with extreme unemployment (especially among those with the same educational/skill levels of illegal immigrants), and if forced, it will have the opposite effect on all three counts.
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