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Topic: Changes Coming to the BSA?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 5:03 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Comments on today's annoucement?

Personally I think it's a good thing




http://www.cnn.com/2013....t=hp_t1


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 5:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"In the Scouts' statement Monday, the group indicated that the national board may consider passing any decisions on gay membership to the local level. Each troop's charter organization would be able to decide "consistent with each organization's mission, principles, or religious beliefs.""

So they pass the buck for bigotry and hatred down a level.

Slightly better than nothing, but not by much.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 5:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How can any organization that encourages boys to wear a neckerchief refuse to accept gays?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 11:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 28 2013, 5:25 pm)
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So they pass the buck for bigotry and hatred down a level.

Slightly better than nothing, but not by much.

How about passing the acceptance and love down a level, too.

Man, this is huge, can't you see that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2013, 11:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Had they actively banned discrimination it would have been huge.

But that would have meant actually taking a stand against, for example, the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who sponsors a huge number of the local troops.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 8:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Chuck D @ Jan. 28 2013, 5:03 pm)
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Comments on today's annoucement?

Personally I think it's a good thing

I think that it would be a step in the right direction and I'm glad to see that this is being discussed. No guarantee, however, that the correct decision will be made and the new proposal enacted.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 9:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The BSA leaders are cowards.

Pick a policy, any policy, and live by it.

Require all who exhibit your colors to do the same.

giving lip service to the elimination of ignorance whilst allowing the locals to continue to practice such ignorance is worst than sticking to the ignorant policy and requiring all to follow it.  Gutless.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 29 2013, 9:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yep.  If they believe homosexuality is wrong, then they shouldn't allow openly gay men to exercise any leadership role within their organization.

OTOH, if there is in fact nothing wrong with homosexuality, then they shouldn't discriminate against people -- not even a little bit.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 2:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 28 2013, 11:35 pm)
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Had they actively banned discrimination it would have been huge.

But that would have meant actually taking a stand against, for example, the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who sponsors a huge number of the local troops.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as a scoutmaster of my congregation's troop, I don't see any problem with this.  

Homosexuals in the Church can hold callings (assignments or duties) within the church and can fully participate as long as they are worthy to do so.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals in the BSA so long as they, like heterosexuals, live by and promote the values of the organization.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 2:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, the leadership of both groups has been on the record as recently as this past summer in support of the BSA ban so I expect time will tell.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 2:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(mocamper1 @ Jan. 30 2013, 12:06 pm)
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As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as a scoutmaster of my congregation's troop, I don't see any problem with this.  

Homosexuals in the Church can hold callings (assignments or duties) within the church and can fully participate as long as they are worthy to do so.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals in the BSA so long as they, like heterosexuals, live by and promote the values of the organization.

(my emphasis added)

That's been the tricky point now, hasn't it.

"Worthy to do so" has historically meant "actively hide your sexuality, don't take up any same-sex partners, don't let anyone know you're a homosexual and try as best as you can to blend in with all the other good moral heterosexuals.  If anyone finds out about you being homosexual, even if you never brought it up yourself, you're gone."  Which isn't really inclusion at all, is it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 3:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 30 2013, 2:36 pm)
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(mocamper1 @ Jan. 30 2013, 12:06 pm)
QUOTE
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as a scoutmaster of my congregation's troop, I don't see any problem with this.  

Homosexuals in the Church can hold callings (assignments or duties) within the church and can fully participate as long as they are worthy to do so.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals in the BSA so long as they, like heterosexuals, live by and promote the values of the organization.

(my emphasis added)

That's been the tricky point now, hasn't it.

"Worthy to do so" has historically meant "actively hide your sexuality, don't take up any same-sex partners, don't let anyone know you're a homosexual and try as best as you can to blend in with all the other good moral heterosexuals.  If anyone finds out about you being homosexual, even if you never brought it up yourself, you're gone."  Which isn't really inclusion at all, is it.

Historically it may have been that way, but we're talking about the contemporary church. It has and is changing.  The Church today is more inclusive.  

But let's stick to the topic at hand. This move by the BSA is a good thing, and it should allow gay LDS members to participate in scouting freely.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 6:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(mocamper1 @ Jan. 30 2013, 1:32 pm)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 30 2013, 2:36 pm)
QUOTE

(mocamper1 @ Jan. 30 2013, 12:06 pm)
QUOTE
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as a scoutmaster of my congregation's troop, I don't see any problem with this.  

Homosexuals in the Church can hold callings (assignments or duties) within the church and can fully participate as long as they are worthy to do so.

I don't have a problem with homosexuals in the BSA so long as they, like heterosexuals, live by and promote the values of the organization.

(my emphasis added)

That's been the tricky point now, hasn't it.

"Worthy to do so" has historically meant "actively hide your sexuality, don't take up any same-sex partners, don't let anyone know you're a homosexual and try as best as you can to blend in with all the other good moral heterosexuals.  If anyone finds out about you being homosexual, even if you never brought it up yourself, you're gone."  Which isn't really inclusion at all, is it.

Historically it may have been that way, but we're talking about the contemporary church. It has and is changing.  The Church today is more inclusive.  

But let's stick to the topic at hand. This move by the BSA is a good thing, and it should allow gay LDS members to participate in scouting freely.

That's fair.

To be honest, I agree with others that it's not far enough, yet.  But you're right, it's a step.

I foresee (pulling out the crystal ball now) that when the BSA districts that do allow gays don't fall apart from moral decline, and when people see that accepting people different than you actually is consistent with teaching morality (and not the other way around), that internal pressure will eventually press the BSA within a handful of years to take a more universally inclusive stance and end the ban across the organization, instead of the piecemeal approach proposed now.

That's me being hopeful anyway.  It's a step.  Not enough yet, but a step.

Whether it'll allow gay LDS members to "participate in scouting freely" yet depends heavily on whether LDS-dominated districts lift the ban or not.  Don't count me hopeful on that, at least not yet.  Even recent history has proven otherwise from that organization.  But I've been wrong before, I'd be happy to be surprised on this one.  Time will tell.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 8:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Right. Because that's what gays do to youth.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 8:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tomas @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:12 pm)
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Right. Because that's what gays do to youth.

Really?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 8:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:22 pm)
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(tomas @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:12 pm)
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Right. Because that's what gays do to youth.

Really?

Because obviously every heterosexual person is out to "foster and encourage" young men to go have sex with women, immediately and promiscuously.  They're out to teach young men their own sexual lifestyle, whatever that may be, even if what they're teaching has nothing at all to do with sexuality.

If you don't believe that about heterosexuals, then ask yourself why that automatically becomes a strawman issue with homosexuals.

If you find an answer, perhaps you've realized where the term "bigot" comes in.  Automatically equating gays with pedophiles makes the case for the word a wee bit clearer there, which is what brought it up in the first place despite your non-sequitur tangent.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 8:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:25 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:22 pm)
QUOTE

(tomas @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:12 pm)
QUOTE
Right. Because that's what gays do to youth.

Really?

Because obviously every heterosexual person is out to "foster and encourage" young men to go have sex with women, immediately and promiscuously.  They're out to teach young men their own sexual lifestyle, whatever that may be, even if what they're teaching has nothing at all to do with sexuality.

If you don't believe that about heterosexuals, then ask yourself why that automatically becomes a strawman issue with homosexuals.

If you find an answer, perhaps you've realized where the term "bigot" comes in.  Automatically equating gays with pedophiles makes the case for the word a wee bit clearer there, which is what brought it up in the first place despite your non-sequitur tangent.

Who here is automatically equating gays with pedophiles?  One can (and will) find sexual predators in both camps, homos and heteros, unfortunately.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:53 pm)
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Who here is automatically equating gays with pedophiles?  One can (and will) find sexual predators in both camps, homos and heteros, unfortunately.

Post 11?  Maybe you missed it (I say that seriously).

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 9:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:59 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:53 pm)
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Who here is automatically equating gays with pedophiles?  One can (and will) find sexual predators in both camps, homos and heteros, unfortunately.

Post 11?  Maybe you missed it (I say that seriously).

So why quote my post with your rant?   ???

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 9:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 7:00 pm)
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(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:59 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:53 pm)
QUOTE
Who here is automatically equating gays with pedophiles?  One can (and will) find sexual predators in both camps, homos and heteros, unfortunately.

Post 11?  Maybe you missed it (I say that seriously).

So why quote my post with your rant?   ???

You know what, you're right (and I say that seriously as well).  My apologies.  It was more a response to Three's non-sequitur, which you didn't write at all.

Mea culpa.

Edit: Although your one-word question does leave me wondering what that meant.  But not enough to make any deal out of it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 9:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

OK.  No problem, now that you cleared it up.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 9:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 8:22 pm)
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(tomas @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:12 pm)
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Right. Because that's what gays do to youth.

Really?

That was sarcasm.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 10:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Let's just say that the people who are abusing young men
are not Openly Gay.  For Example, Sandusky
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 30 2013, 10:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tomas @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:24 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 30 2013, 8:22 pm)
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(tomas @ Jan. 30 2013, 5:12 pm)
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Right. Because that's what gays do to youth.

Really?

That was sarcasm.

I know.  Just incredible how some people link homosexuals with sex predators!  I liked your response, and I piled on to add more sarcasm.   :;):


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(isawtman @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:34 pm)
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Let's just say that the people who are abusing young men
are not Openly Gay.  For Example, Sandusky

Or, for example, name your local priest/BSA leader

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(isawtman @ Jan. 30 2013, 6:34 pm)
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Let's just say that the people who are abusing young men
are not Openly Gay.

I think the sooner people recognize that sexual orientation is NO predictor of sexual perversion -- the better.  Reverse discrimination is just as much a fallacy as discrimination.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 9:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(isawtman @ Jan. 30 2013, 10:34 pm)
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Let's just say that the people who are abusing young men
are not Openly Gay.  For Example, Sandusky

Or, let's just say that the people who are raping young women are not openly rapists. For example, Mike Tyson.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 12:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ginseng @ Jan. 30 2013, 2:53 pm)
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(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 30 2013, 2:37 pm)
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(Ginseng @ Jan. 30 2013, 12:33 pm)
QUOTE
like letting a pedophile babysit, IMO :^(>

Hip hip, hooray for bigotry.

Thanks GoBlue! I had to look up bigotry :^)>, nope, that aint it, but this is:

de·vi·ant:
noun
2. a person or thing that deviates or departs markedly from the accepted norm.

sex:
1.either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

You needed to look up how to figure out which sex you are?  ???

And, you're right, any YOUTH organization that discriminates based on sexual-orientation is a "deviant".  Good thing the BSA is going to do something about that.   :)


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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 28 2013, 11:35 pm)
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Had they actively banned discrimination it would have been huge.

But that would have meant actually taking a stand against, for example, the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who sponsors a huge number of the local troops.

Ummm, HSF, haven't you made a HUGE false assumption here?

The LDS church admits gays in the church, gays can hold the priesthood and can enter LDS temples and participate in the most sacred of LDS ordinances.  A gay man can lead an LDS deacon quorum (boys aged 12 & 13) but cannot become a scout leader for those same boys because of the BSA ban, NOT because of any bans by the LDS church.  The LDS church is way ahead of BSA on this subject.

I would not be surprised if Catholic church sponsored scout units are the same.
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Can a gay woman have multiple wives?
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