SUBSCRIBE | NEWSLETTERS | MAPS | VIDEOS | BLOGS | MARKETPLACE | CONTESTS
TRY BACKPACKER FREE!
SUBSCRIBE NOW and get
2 Free Issues and 3 Free Gifts!
Full Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Email: (required)
If I like it and decide to continue, I'll pay just $12.00, and receive a full one-year subscription (9 issues in all), a 73% savings off the newsstand price! If for any reason I decide not to continue, I'll write "cancel" on the invoice and owe nothing.
Your subscription includes 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Or click here to pay now and get 2 extra issues
Offer valid in US only.


» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

 

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic new poll
Topic: Minimum Wage, and fast food< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
wycanislatrans Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2671
Joined: Nov. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 9:59 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://money.msn.com/now....bd3ee06

Personally, I don't give a rat's @$$ what happens to Mc Donalds or the fast food industry.

I saw one comment mentioning that now poor people won't be able to afford to eat. WTF! Fast Food on a regular basis is not cheaper than making a sandwhich at home and sure as heck not as healthy.

I realize this a broader issue than fast food, but in the case of this article, I don't think the long term implacations will hurt America at all.

*side note: "YUM" Brands owns KFC and Taco Bell. What an oxymoron.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 2
Bass Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2112
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 11:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A good percentage of fast food workers work only 30 hours per week or less. So IF they worked for 52 weeks, the pay is really less than $12,000 per year. Note that in many states, employers fire "part-time" employers when they approach 6 months in order to avoid classification by state workman's comp and labor departments. In this era of plentiful workers, employers are moving more and more to "part-time" and temp employees.

So while a $9.00 minimum wage is a step in the right direction, I don't see it making any impact at all on the rapidly growing number of working poor in the US.

Let's not just blame the fast food industry. Fast food restaurants are being joined by LOTS of employers in other industries in shifting their labor force to "part-time", high turnover, and minimum wage. As a result, the middle class is disappearing rapidly. The US is becoming a two class society - the few very rich and the vast majority of very poor. In summary, we are headed to a "let them eat cake" society similar to the France of Louis XIV.

So the $9.00 minimum wage is about as effective as rearranging the chairs on the deck as the Titanic sinks.

The fact is that there are many more workers than there are jobs in the US. Unless this changes, ALL workers will see wages rapidly drop - and their standard of living continue to drop as it has in the last 5 years. Remember the supply/demand curve from Economics 101?

Something drastic like a modern version of the New Deal with a reduced workweek ( 40 hours in 1930 ) or a new WWII or a new Interstate Highway program has to happen in order to change what is happening in the labor market. Until then, "let them eat cake" is our future.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 3
buzzards Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1986
Joined: Apr. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 11:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not to derail the thread, Bass, or to be TOO nitpicky, but the King of France you are referring to is Louis XVI, not Louis XIV, who most assuredly did not lose his head.

--------------
Now shall I walk or shall I ride?
Ride, said pleasure,
Walk, Joy replied,
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 4
EastieTrekker Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mar. 2012
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 11:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Feb. 15 2013, 11:00 am)
QUOTE
Let's not just blame the fast food industry. Fast food restaurants are being joined by LOTS of employers in other industries in shifting their labor force to "part-time", high turnover, and minimum wage. As a result, the middle class is disappearing rapidly.

The fact is that there are many more workers than there are jobs in the US. Unless this changes, ALL workers will see wages rapidly drop - and their standard of living continue to drop as it has in the last 5 years. Remember the supply/demand curve from Economics 101?

You'd do well to review your macro and micro economics 101, before sounding the alarm as you so often do.

1.) "Fast food joints are being joined...in shifting their workforce to part-time"  Really? Hmmm...could you remind me when it was that Mickie D's, BK, Taco Bell, etc. were a bastion of secure, full-time employment?  

There's been no change here.  You're just bringing it into focus to coincide with your "reducing the average American's workweek" story line that you constantly push (and that I've refuted with real economics 101).

2.) "The fact that there are many more workers than there are jobs in the US."

Yes sir, that is always the case after a severe recession - not a unique factor in today's economy.

3.) "Unless this changes, ALL workers will see wages rapidly drop - and their standard of living continue to drop as it has in the last 5 years.  Remember the supply/demand curve from Economics 101"  

First, though shall not take Economics 101 name in vain.

Second, despite your simplistic view of the economy, and while labor markets can be generally summarized at the national level, they are far, far more intricate and independent than you are letting on.  A $1.75 raise in the federal minimum wage does not affect ALL equally as you state.  For instance, MA and other states already have a minimum wage approaching $9.00 - so the shock to those states would be minimal compared to one where the minimum wage is at the federal minimum.  A rise in the wage of a McDonald's employee will not, nor has it ever, cause a DROP in the wages of completely unrelated industries.

Third, a rise in minimum wages is to raise the price floor on the labor market.  Hmmm, so what's the impact of a price floor? Well, that'd be unemployment and a decrease in the standard of living.  How so, you ask?  A price floor creates an artificial equilibrium between labor demanded and the price of labor (aka wages).  That artificial equilibrium is at a higher cost than the market would have otherwise set, without the floor.  Thereby, causing less labor to be demanded - aka rising unemployment.  Further, a rise in wages will cause input price pressure on the product, causing the final product to rise in cost as well - aka the Big Mac goes up in price causing you to spend more on food and less on other needs, reducing your standard of living.

And that my friend, is Economics 101.


--------------
I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.   ???
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 5
EastieTrekker Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mar. 2012
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 11:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lest I come off as callous - I don't necessarily think a rise in minimum wage is a bad thing.  The timing might be a little iffy, but generally I think minimum wage worker's wages stay behind the pace of inflation - so any increase that comes at the federal level is usually overdue anyway.

--------------
I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice.   ???
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 6
Marmotstew Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 9300
Joined: May 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 11:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

All those peasants making an increase in min wage will pump all that money back into the economy.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 7
Lamebeaver Search for posts by this member.
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 18984
Joined: Aug. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 2:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That's OK, there are plenty of illegals willing to work under-the-table for less....
Online
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 8
BillBab Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sep. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 2:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

They should set the minimum wage for all jobs at $100,000 per year

Think of all the tax revenue

Math is hard


--------------
"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."

Thomas Sowell
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 9
george of the j Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 569
Joined: Apr. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 2:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Feb. 15 2013, 2:04 pm)
QUOTE
That's OK, there are plenty of illegals willing to work under-the-table for less....

The first thing I thought of when I heard Obama mention minimum wage in the state of the union address was illegal immigration.

The Democrat party agenda has always seemed conflicted to me. On the one hand, the Democrats are the champions of the working class: minimum wages, unions, OSHA, ect. Then on the other hand, the Democrats for the most part lavish benefits on illegal aliens to secure the Latino vote. This probably helps to attract more illegal aliens here and undermines  the gains the Democrats make with laws to lift up the working class.

---George
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 10
Land Rover Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6574
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 3:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(george of the j @ Feb. 15 2013, 2:42 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Feb. 15 2013, 2:04 pm)
QUOTE
That's OK, there are plenty of illegals willing to work under-the-table for less....

The first thing I thought of when I heard Obama mention minimum wage in the state of the union address was illegal immigration.

The Democrat party agenda has always seemed conflicted to me. On the one hand, the Democrats are the champions of the working class: minimum wages, unions, OSHA, ect. Then on the other hand, the Democrats for the most part lavish benefits on illegal aliens to secure the Latino vote. This probably helps to attract more illegal aliens here and undermines  the gains the Democrats make with laws to lift up the working class.

---George

How exactly are they lavishing benefits on illegal aliens? Can we get something specific here?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 11
george of the j Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 569
Joined: Apr. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 16 2013, 4:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Land Rover, The California Dream Act is one example. The second part of this 2-part act will make $14.5 million dollars of state funds available to undocumented immigrant students for college financial aid (article).

There are many more examples which you can easily find on the web. In California, illegal immigrants are provided with medical care, welfare, food stamps, drivers licences, and unemployment benefits. By and large, it is the democrats who have pushed for and secured these benefits for the illegal immigrants.

Imagine you live in Mexico and are considering crossing the border illegally for work. Such a friendly and welcoming atmosphere in California may help you make up your mind to do it.

---George
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 12
star Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3205
Joined: Jun. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 6:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So in one state they make out pretty good, they certainly receive nothing like that here. If they were all coming for the benefits why don't they all pile into California?
I've come to change my view on welfare, it's become a form of corporate subsidy allowing them to pay wages people can't possibly live on. We don't have people that live on welfare, there simply is no program that allows you to do so. You can get foodstamps, if you have kids you can get healthcare, we have some amount of subsidized housing based on your income and that's it.
Me, I'm not even paid minimum wage. Someone thought it would be a great idea to pay us a third of that. There is no program I don't qualify for and if my situation were different you bet your buttons I'd be up there applying. While I'm happy to work for a living, the key word here is living... you have to be able to make ends meet. Our wage hasn't increased since 1991. I strongly suspect many of you are making better than 1991 wages. I also.have to wonder why anyone felt the need to so heavily subsidize the food service industry. I don't think the Dollar Menu is doing our society any favors.


--------------
If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 13
HighGravity Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3818
Joined: Oct. 2009
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 8:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(star @ Feb. 17 2013, 6:56 am)
QUOTE
I've come to change my view on welfare, it's become a form of corporate subsidy allowing them to pay wages people can't possibly live on.

Interesting theory.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 14
Bass Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2112
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 8:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

star
QUOTE
I'm happy to work for a living, the key word here is living... you have to be able to make ends meet


Any time there is even a rumor of a job opening around here - minimum wage or not - the employer is FLOODED with job applicants. I'd guess that there are 30 applicants for each job. Many of the job applicants are recent graduates of the local university who are willing to work as roofers or warehouse employees - as PART TIME minimum wage employees with engineering degrees. ( The "shortage of engineers" is a lie so big companies can get cheap foreign engineers to flood the country. See Engineers Remain Unemployed Despite Reported "Shortage" )

I see 20 and 30 something "kids" with their kids moving back in with their parents because they can't find a job that pays enough - or offers enough hours - to live on. Of course they have all exhausted their unemployment benefits and are not even counted as "unemployed" by government statistics anymore.

EastieTrekker
QUOTE
that is always the case after a severe recession - not a unique factor in today's economy.


After five years of watching the unemployed and underemployed younger generation struggle to find work that they can make a living on, I have become convinced that there IS something UNIQUE going on. Part time workers are not being replace with full time workers where I live - in fact, IT IS JUST THE OPPOSITE, full time workers with many years of service are being replaced with minimum wage part time workers.

My "simplistic view" of the economy is the result of what I am seeing in my community. And I see a "recession" that started in 2007 that is continuing in 2013. I see so many friends who lost their jobs after 20 years with the same employers still unemployed - or now working for their old employer as PART TIME minimum wage employees. I see thousands of uncounted unemployed and underemployed spending down their savings and living with their parents - many of them with college degrees and still paying student loans.

So "AFTER a severe recession" is not what I am seeing. I am seeing a CONTINUED SEVERE DEPRESSION where there are TOO MANY WORKERS AND TOO FEW JOBS. As a result, employers are embracing the "part time" worker model - replacing their workforce with 30-hour per week employees with a rate of turnover that prevents any unemployment compensation or benefits.

So we disagree, I think that there is something UNIQUE about this "recession". And I also think that too many workers and too few jobs has shifted the supply/demand curve so that the cost of labor is much lower. I do not feel that this is taking "Economics 101 name in vain". IT IS THE REALITY THAT LABOR IS FACING IN TODAY'S ECONOMY.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 15
wycanislatrans Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2671
Joined: Nov. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 11:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(star @ Feb. 17 2013, 4:56 am)
QUOTE
I don't think the Dollar Menu is doing our society any favors.

+1

What did Americans eat BEFORE fast food?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 16
star Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3205
Joined: Jun. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 2:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 17 2013, 8:54 am)
QUOTE

(star @ Feb. 17 2013, 6:56 am)
QUOTE
I've come to change my view on welfare, it's become a form of corporate subsidy allowing them to pay wages people can't possibly live on.

Interesting theory.

Even if not by actual intent, that is surely what it has become. But at least on some level I believe the intent was always there.
Before they caught heck for it Walmart gave out instructions on applying for Badgercare as part of their information packets for new hires, for them to consider rather than taking the insurance offered by Walmart. They've since curtailed most scheduling that allowed people to earn benefits.
We already know most companies don't invest in their employees like they used to. How much can they be expected to invest knowing full well they really don't even have to pay enough to put food on the table? Walmart in particular stands to gain even further, thanks to their employee discount take.a wild guess where they're most likely to.spend their food stamp dollars.


--------------
If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 17
star Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3205
Joined: Jun. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 3:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wycanislatrans @ Feb. 17 2013, 11:58 am)
QUOTE

(star @ Feb. 17 2013, 4:56 am)
QUOTE
I don't think the Dollar Menu is doing our society any favors.

+1

What did Americans eat BEFORE fast food?

FOOD.

--------------
If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 18
star Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3205
Joined: Jun. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 3:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Bass- I won't begin to think I have the answer to that one. We've rarely had a lot, most of what others find alarming, having to live with the folks etc...we've always lived like that. But we've also bought new cars and we own our homes. So we live like the Waltons (not the Walmart owning variety). It's not all bad. With the hours of work required, sticking close to your extended family only makes sense, and not so long ago everyone lived like that. They didn't make those huge, wonderful Victorian houses for a couple people to knock around in you know. Yes, we need to make a living, but a little more making do wouldn't hurt some people either.

--------------
If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 19
HighGravity Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3818
Joined: Oct. 2009
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 3:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(star @ Feb. 17 2013, 2:58 pm)
QUOTE
Even if not by actual intent, that is surely what it has become. But at least on some level I believe the intent was always there.
Before they caught heck for it Walmart gave out instructions on applying for Badgercare as part of their information packets for new hires, for them to consider rather than taking the insurance offered by Walmart.

I find this to be an interesting notion that I had not considered before. If true it's another example of how there really is very little separation between public and private enterprise.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 20
star Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3205
Joined: Jun. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 6:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I can't find an article about the Badgercare handout, must be too long ago. There certainly was an uproar at the time.
Here's this instead.

http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/corpora....r-costs

I've become cynical enough to be pretty sure no one cares about us as individuals. The boss man however does like us reasonably able to work.


--------------
If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 21
Bass Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2112
Joined: Sep. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 6:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

star
QUOTE
Even if not by actual intent, that is surely what it has become.


WalMart and other minimum wage employers spend $millions hiring expensive lobbyists and give big donations to lawmakers to promote their interests. So I think that it is by intent.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 22
star Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 3205
Joined: Jun. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 7:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sure, notice that most of our largest employers are also our lowest paying ones. Everyone is hip to ALEC by now, but they employ lobbyists of their own as well.
The system's not broke. They made it this way.


--------------
If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
21 replies since Feb. 15 2013, 9:59 am < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


 
reply to topic new topic new poll

» Quick Reply Minimum Wage
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code



Get 2 FREE Trial Issues and 3 FREE GIFTS
Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
The Best Trails in America
YES! Please send me my FREE trial issues of Backpacker
and my 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Full Name:
City:
Address 1:
Zip Code:
State:
Address 2:
Email (required):
Free trial offer valid for US subscribers only. Canadian subscriptions | International subscriptions