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Topic: Special forces letter on the 2nd amendment< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 7:57 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

An excerpt.

First, we need to set the record straight on a few things. The current debate is over so-called "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines. The terms "assault weapon" and "assault rifle" are often confused. According to Bruce H. Kobayashi and Joseph E. Olson, writing in the Stanford Law and Policy Review, "Prior to 1989, the term ‘assault weapon' did not exist in the lexicon of firearms. It is a political term [underline added for emphasis], developed by anti-gun publicists to expand the category of assault rifles."

Read more: Family Security Matters http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publica....YcT9s5i
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 8:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes, as members of the special forces are exactly who you want defining the role of guns in elementary schools.

I don't know why we are not already putting the military in charge of educating six-year-olds.

What exactly do you think is "special" about this? That some former members for the military like their guns?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 10:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The term assault weapon is a bad one.  And some bans that use the term ban some guns yet allow others with the same capacity.  A book I read on the second amendment said that these semi-automatic weapons don't fire any faster than a revolver, requiring a trigger pull for each round.

Your article also claims that 10 round limit would not do much.  But you don't see these mass killing happening with revolvers?, so maybe these magazines need to be restricted even more, I also wonder how accurate a revolver is if one shots it as fast as one can, as opposed to these rifles?

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/BearAr


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 10:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Weapons and rifles are neither mentioned in the 2nd. What's the point?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 10:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(dayhiker9 @ Jan. 31 2013, 10:13 am)
QUOTE
I also wonder how accurate a revolver is if one shots it as fast as one can, as opposed to these rifles?

I know from personal experience that it is much harder to shoot a pistol accurately than a rifle. But I wouldn't think that mass murderers are taking aim much, but rather just spraying bullets around. And it's kinda hard to miss a helpless victim from 10 feet away.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 9:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Jan. 31 2013, 6:51 am)
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Yes, as members of the special forces are exactly who you want defining the role of guns in elementary schools.

I don't know why we are not already putting the military in charge of educating six-year-olds.

What exactly do you think is "special" about this? That some former members for the military like their guns?

That's insulting to those currently willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and to the many who have already done so to protect your right to complain about them.

You remind me of many of those we rescued in the CG who while wrapped in a blanket on the deck of our cutter, griped that we didn't also save their boat. You're willing to bitch about what someone else does but too cowardly to do it yourself.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 11:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While I don't agree entirely with the numbered points made in the letter, the positions taken are far more realistic and practical than the ones argued here by most of the gun proponents.

That aside, I don't have a problem with each and every one of those dedicated soldiers having their individual opinions on this topic - but I do wonder why these "Quiet Professionals" feel it is appropriate to make such a political statement as an entity.  I would prefer they, (as a group) remain - "Quite Professionals" and save their personal opinions for their own time.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 12:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

so Montecresto

Why did you selectively choose this from anonymous Green Special Forces while ignoring
recently retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal's view on this in which he went on record to say
the following?


Retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal backed banning assault weapons on Tuesday, saying guns like
the M4 and M16 belong in the hands of soldiers, not on the streets.

”I spent a career carrying typically either a M16 and later, a M4 carbine,” McChrystal said
on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “And a M4 carbine fires a .223 caliber round, which is 5.56
millimeters, at about 3,000 feet per second. When it hits a human body, the effects are
devastating. It’s designed to do that. That’s what our soldiers ought to carry.”

He added, “I personally don’t think there’s any need for that kind of weaponry on the
streets and particularly around the schools in America. I believe that we’ve got to take a
serious look — I understand everybody’s desire to have whatever they want — we have to
protect our children and our police and we have to protect our population. And I think we
have to take a very mature look at that.


http://www.politico.com/story....fXQpqep


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 12:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The rank and file generally aren't political animals like generals. Nice appeal to authority though.

My experience is that some of the rank and file military guys are getting nervous that our government is planning on ignoring the Posse Comitatus Act; in order to use the military to disarm the population that rejects an onerous gun ban.

Pretty unlikely scenario in my opinion but who knows?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 12:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ron

So I quote from a retired general who ran operations in Afghanistan and so according to you
its about appealing 'to authority' and political motivation. What a convenient response.
Oh and if its about politics, then how likely is that political motivation would be to be
on the side of gun regulation and the same side of an issue of Obama? Based on that Rolling
Stones article he isn't a fan of Obama.

BTW we don't who those people are Montecresto quoted from since it is anonymous. I mean it
was originally posted in some blog by someone using the handle of "Team Sergeant". That
is all we know.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 1:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wouldn't both be considered appeals to authority?

Who knows better about guns than Special Forces or Generals?

A General tops the SF guys though in the authority arena.

My speculation was about the unease some military are feeling over possible domestic deployment and was meant to provide background on why these guys may have felt the need to speak out.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 1:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

if both are appealing to authority then why would you specifically point out in your original
response that it was appealing to authority to mention McChrystal without mentioning it
was also appealing to authority to mention the supposed special forces soldiers?

other than that you obviously don't know McChrystal's background


in November 1978, McChrystal enrolled as a student in the Special Forces Officer Course at
the Special Forces School at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Upon completing the course in April
1979, he remained at Fort Bragg as commander of an SFOD-A Special Forces Operational
Detachment - Alpha (or "A-team")
in A Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group
(Airborne) until June 1980, when he attended the Infantry Officer Advanced Course at the
Infantry School at Fort Benning, Georgia, until February 1981.[7][16]

In February 1981, McChrystal moved to South Korea as intelligence and operations officer
(S-2/S-3) for the United Nations Command Support Group—Joint Security Area. He reported to
Fort Stewart, Georgia, in March 1982 to serve as training officer in the Directorate of
Plans and Training, A Company, Headquarters Command. He moved to 3rd Battalion, 19th
Infantry, 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized), in November 1982, where he commanded A
Company before becoming battalion operations officer (S-3) in September 1984.[7][16]

McChrystal moved to 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, as battalion liaison officer in
September 1985, became commander of A Company in January 1986, served again as battalion
liaison officer in May 1987, and finally became battalion operations officer (S-3) in April
1988, before reporting to the Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island, as a student in
the Command and General Staff Course in June 1989. After completing the course in June 1990,
he was assigned as Army Special Operationsaction officer, J-3, Joint Special Operations
Command until April 1993, in which capacity he deployed to Saudi Arabia for Operations Desert
Shield and Desert Storm.[7][16]

From April 1993 to November 1994, McChrystal commanded the 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute
Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division. He then commanded the 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger
Regiment, from November 1994 to June 1996. During this time he initiated what would become a
complete revamping of the existing Army hand-to-hand combat curricula.[17] After a year as a
senior service college fellow at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard
University, he moved up to command the entire 75th Ranger Regiment from June 1997 to August
1999, then spent another year as a military fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.
[7][16]



Commander, Joint Special Operations Command

He commanded the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) for five years, serving first as
Commanding General, Joint Special Operations Command, from September 2003 to February 2006,
and then as Commander, Joint Special Operations Command/Commander, Joint Special Operations
Command Forward, from February 2006 to August 2008.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_A._McChrystal


and again we don't know if what Montecresto quoted was really from Special Forces soldiers


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The speculation is that this SF's letter is a response to the generals comments regarding banning sporting rifles like the AR-15.

Maybe my "appeal to authority" quip hit closer to home than I thought.

I give both the letter and the general the same weight of authority regarding this issue, zilch


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 1:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

but you said before "A General tops the SF guys though in the authority arena."

so a general tops SF in authority yet you give them equal weight? Seems to me if two people
are of equal weight then they should have the same authority.

But having said that you're giving equal weight to someone who uses the handle
"Team Sergeant" in a blog to Stanley McChrystal?

added: When you originally said "Who knows better about guns than Special Forces or
Generals?" you clearly were NOT giving them equal weight


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 1:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Feb. 01 2013, 12:24 pm)
QUOTE
so Montecresto

Why did you selectively choose this from anonymous Green Special Forces while ignoring
recently retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal's view on this in which he went on record to say
the following?


Retired Gen. Stanley McChrystal backed banning assault weapons on Tuesday, saying guns like
the M4 and M16 belong in the hands of soldiers, not on the streets.

”I spent a career carrying typically either a M16 and later, a M4 carbine,” McChrystal said
on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “And a M4 carbine fires a .223 caliber round, which is 5.56
millimeters, at about 3,000 feet per second. When it hits a human body, the effects are
devastating. It’s designed to do that. That’s what our soldiers ought to carry.”

He added, “I personally don’t think there’s any need for that kind of weaponry on the
streets and particularly around the schools in America. I believe that we’ve got to take a
serious look — I understand everybody’s desire to have whatever they want — we have to
protect our children and our police and we have to protect our population. And I think we
have to take a very mature look at that.


http://www.politico.com/story....fXQpqep

Well I wasn't ignoring anything. His comments were discussed in another thread and they are relevant as well.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 1:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Feb. 01 2013, 11:16 am)
QUOTE
While I don't agree entirely with the numbered points made in the letter, the positions taken are far more realistic and practical than the ones argued here by most of the gun proponents.

That aside, I don't have a problem with each and every one of those dedicated soldiers having their individual opinions on this topic - but I do wonder why these "Quiet Professionals" feel it is appropriate to make such a political statement as an entity.  I would prefer they, (as a group) remain - "Quite Professionals" and save their personal opinions for their own time.

That's your legitimate opinion. I for one am encouraged by it and hope it reflects the attitude of many many more of them.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 2:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Feb. 01 2013, 12:34 pm)
QUOTE
but you said before "A General tops the SF guys though in the authority arena."

so a general tops SF in authority yet you give them equal weight? Seems to me if two people
are of equal weight then they should have the same authority.

But having said that you're giving equal weight to someone who uses the handle
"Team Sergeant" in a blog to Stanley McChrystal?

added: When you originally said "Who knows better about guns than Special Forces or
Generals?" you clearly were NOT giving them equal weight

It was more a flow of consciousness reasoning as to why folks appeal to authority than my opinion.

My opinion is I don't look to military personal, generals or not, to define my rights. Even if it is the human right of self defense using tools they are familiar with.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 2:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 01 2013, 10:46 am)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Feb. 01 2013, 11:16 am)
QUOTE
While I don't agree entirely with the numbered points made in the letter, the positions taken are far more realistic and practical than the ones argued here by most of the gun proponents.

That aside, I don't have a problem with each and every one of those dedicated soldiers having their individual opinions on this topic - but I do wonder why these "Quiet Professionals" feel it is appropriate to make such a political statement as an entity.  I would prefer they, (as a group) remain - "Quite Professionals" and save their personal opinions for their own time.

That's your legitimate opinion. I for one am encouraged by it and hope it reflects the attitude of many many more of them.

So would you be in favor of the GB's and all other special operators weighing in publicly on other topics such as abortion, religion, foreign policy, budget, immigration, etc. etc. etc.?

Could it be that what you are encouraged by is that it reflects your own views?  
What about next time when it may not?

Professionals?  Absolutely.
Quiet?  Not in this case.  And I think that's a mistake.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 2:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Of course I agree with them. And no, I would have no problem with them weighing in on the other items you mentioned, why would I?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 3:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 01 2013, 11:55 am)
QUOTE
Of course I agree with them. And no, I would have no problem with them weighing in on the other items you mentioned, why would I?

Again, I have no problem with soldiers individually having and sharing an opinion on anything.  I'm just not in favor of our military taking positions on any issues.  As a group, our military (or subsets of our military) should not become a political mouthpieces.

And looking at the link in the OP a little further, I'm doubtful of its legitimacy to begin with.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 3:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Did you notice Ron's "experience"

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 3:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 01 2013, 12:24 pm)
QUOTE
Did you notice Ron's "experience"

Yes.
It doesn't change my opinion.

The rank and file military guys may get nervous about a lot of things.  I don't think they should take matters into their own hands every time that happens though.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 4:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ok. I don't think expressing an opinion is taking matters into your own hands. But hopefully, there remains a majority of military personnel that wouldn't violate posse comitatus.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 5:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 01 2013, 9:29 am)
QUOTE

(Land Rover @ Jan. 31 2013, 6:51 am)
QUOTE
Yes, as members of the special forces are exactly who you want defining the role of guns in elementary schools.

I don't know why we are not already putting the military in charge of educating six-year-olds.

What exactly do you think is "special" about this? That some former members for the military like their guns?

That's insulting to those currently willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and to the many who have already done so to protect your right to complain about them.

You remind me of many of those we rescued in the CG who while wrapped in a blanket on the deck of our cutter, griped that we didn't also save their boat. You're willing to bitch about what someone else does but too cowardly to do it yourself.

Dude what are you smoking? There's nothing in LR's comment that justifies anything you're saying.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 5:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Perhaps we should start asking elementary school teachers their opinion on counter insurgency techniques or counter terror operations?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 6:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Speaking of rank and file, check out this idiot:

QUOTE
FORT HOOD, Texas —A Fort Hood soldier pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter Thursday, saying he shot his 22-year-old friend accidentally while trying to scare away his hiccups.

Read more: ]http://www.wyff4.com/news....]
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 6:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Land Rover @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:51 pm)
QUOTE
Perhaps we should start asking elementary school teachers their opinion on counter insurgency techniques or counter terror operations?

Sure. As long as they have experience and training in counter terrorism and have planned active operations against it.

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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 01 2013, 6:56 pm)
QUOTE

(Land Rover @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:51 pm)
QUOTE
Perhaps we should start asking elementary school teachers their opinion on counter insurgency techniques or counter terror operations?

Sure. As long as they have experience and training in counter terrorism and have planned active operations against it.

Do you have any idea what that whooshing sound was you just heard?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 7:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Soldiers active or not are still citizens and the bill of rights is theirs too. Whereas teachers have no constitutional right to be setting counterterrorism policy.

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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 01 2013, 6:56 pm)
QUOTE

(Land Rover @ Feb. 01 2013, 3:51 pm)
QUOTE
Perhaps we should start asking elementary school teachers their opinion on counter insurgency techniques or counter terror operations?

Sure. As long as they have experience and training in counter terrorism and have planned active operations against it.

In have huge respect for all our armed forces including the special forces. I just don't think their experience is any guide to how we reduce levels of violence outside the war zone.

We should no more ask them how to make America's streets safer than we would ask them to perform a vasectomy on you..... Oh, but they are trained with a knife...
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