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Topic: America scared of the shadow< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 12:27 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

TSA working stadiums, car racing events, and other entertainment venues.


Fans can expect to be watched, sniffed and pawed as they enter the Superdome.

“Fans can expect to pass through metal detectors and a pat-down search. After the pat-down search, fans will be asked to unzip any coats. All bags will be x-rayed,” Miller said.

Gamma ray scanners can see through six inches of steal, monitored from a command center.

“TSA of course is working on making sure the airspace around the stadium is closed during the game. Also working providing K-9 teams and screeners and all the rest, said Janet Napolitano, Homeland Security Secretary.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013....er-gras


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 12:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The World Trade Center Towers were very tall buildings so, yes, they cast their shadows a very long ways.

Hopefully as far as the bottom of the Indian Ocean where bin Laden rots. :)
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 12:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yep.  A nation that is at once arrogant and insecure.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 1:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 9:58 am)
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Yep.  A nation that is at once arrogant and insecure.

While you see killing Bin Laden as "arrogant" I simply see it as justice, justice too long delayed but justice nevertheless.

As far as establishing procedures to make it just that much harder for the Jihadists to kill more Americans? That's not insecurity it's pragmatism.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 1:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 31 2013, 10:09 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 9:58 am)
QUOTE
Yep.  A nation that is at once arrogant and insecure.

While you see killing Bin Laden as "arrogant" I simply see it as justice, justice too long delayed but justice nevertheless.

As far as establishing procedures to make it just that much harder for the Jihadists to kill more Americans? That's not insecurity it's pragmatism.

Au contraire!  I too see the capturing and killing of bin Laden as justice -- pure and simple.  He needed to be captured for what he did... and he was killed because he resisted capture.

Just where did I ever say the hunting down and killing of bin Laden an act of arrogance?

OTOH, to turn our nation practically into one big camp of surveillance -- that's not practicality.  That's bureaucratic stupidity.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 1:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So security measures at the SuperBowl are unnecessary "bureaucratic stupidity"?

I disagree.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 1:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 31 2013, 10:17 am)
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So security measures at the SuperBowl are unnecessary "bureaucratic stupidity"?

I disagree.

Is anyone here implying that security is an "all or none" measure?  Thanks for throwing up a strawman just so you can attack it.   :;):

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 1:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Jan. 31 2013, 9:27 am)
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TSA working stadiums, car racing events, and other entertainment venues.


Fans can expect to be watched, sniffed and pawed as they enter the Superdome.

“Fans can expect to pass through metal detectors and a pat-down search. After the pat-down search, fans will be asked to unzip any coats. All bags will be x-rayed,” Miller said.

Gamma ray scanners can see through six inches of steal, monitored from a command center.

“TSA of course is working on making sure the airspace around the stadium is closed during the game. Also working providing K-9 teams and screeners and all the rest, said Janet Napolitano, Homeland Security Secretary.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013....er-gras

While I am no alarmist... I can see how the 'security' industry might wish to encourage our bureaucrats to keep investing in "more and better" security apparatus -- so companies can keep peddling the latest equipment, software, gadgets...  This generates jobs and profits.

And I can see our media joining the bandwagon -- pressing the fear button generates reader attention.

And why would bureaucrats fight off their new sense of power?  As well, it's always good (for them) to make us believe that they're continually working harder to keep us safe...

Put all that together -- plus a citizenry that's generally apathetic and easily manipulated -- and there, you have it.  The next generation likely won't know any different -- of course you walk through chemical/metal detectors whenever you enter any public venue.  And of course, cameras are everywhere, just like streetlights...  And of course 'everything' is monitored....


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 2:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 10:24 am)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jan. 31 2013, 10:17 am)
QUOTE
So security measures at the SuperBowl are unnecessary "bureaucratic stupidity"?

I disagree.

Is anyone here implying that security is an "all or none" measure?  Thanks for throwing up a strawman just so you can attack it.   :;):

Security measures at the Superbowl (and NOT "to turn our nation practically into one big camp of surveillance ") are the topic of the thread are they not?

So do you think the measures at the Superbowl as outlined in the linked article from the OP are a bureaucratic stupidity or not?

Were I interested in a strawman I'd demand to know whether you prefer your apple pie a la mode or not.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 3:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Discussing with you, HSF, is like an old discussion I had with another member who thankfully doesn't post anymore.  It goes something like this:

Me:  We shouldn't have to spend each year on defense more than the next 17 highest spending countries combined.

The other guy:  Well, Ben, let's just get rid of all weapons and rely on goodwill then!  Stupid people who think if we just get rid of all our weapons, then we won't have any enemies...


And same goes with you, HSF.  I talk about having too much bureaucratic security in general terms -- and your idiotic response is, and I quote:  "So security measures at the SuperBowl are unnecessary "bureaucratic stupidity".

Something about the dumbing down of our society...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 3:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Generally, I think stepped up security measures for big events, like the Super Bowl, are appropriate.  Someone crazy enough to make an attack could rack up the casualties quickly in a setting like that.  

However, what's the difference between the Super Bowl, and a game at Michigan State University?  That stadium holds ~100,000 people, so any big rivalry game probably has similar attendance levels as the Super Bowl.  

My take - probably a little overboard, on the Super Bowl, but if I was in attendance I wouldn't complain about the extra 5 minute hassle, even if it only delivered a "perceived" increase in safety.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 3:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That's called nuancing and exercising judgment, Eastie.  Something that escapes HSF -- who thinks that people who believe we have too much or the wrong kinds of security must mean that they don't want any security measures at all...

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 3:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 3:13 pm)
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That's called nuancing and exercising judgment, Eastie.  Something that escapes HSF -- who thinks that people who believe we have too much or the wrong kinds of security must mean that they don't want any security measures at all...

I essentially agree with you and that's the purpose of the post. I believe the security/surveillance policies are growing increasingly over the top and serve an anterior motive to true security.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 3:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Meh. I can sneak in all the booze and guns at Rockies games. This being one of the most televised events in America the added security is reasonable. And is it the government or the NFL beefing up security?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 4:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 12:09 pm)
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And same goes with you, HSF.  I talk about having too much bureaucratic security in general terms -- and your idiotic response is, and I quote:  "So security measures at the SuperBowl are unnecessary "bureaucratic stupidity".

Something about the dumbing down of our society...

Who ate your lunch?

Didn't you just do essentially do the same thing in post 5 that you're accusing HSF of?    How are we turning our nation "into one big camp of surveillance" by heightening security at one the biggest security risks we have?  

Doesn't sound like like "general terms" to me, sounds like another flagrant exaggeration, complements of Ben's peanut gallery.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 5:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

hbfa:

OP's post wasn't just about Super Bowl.  It's a lot wider coverage.  I think we've all come to expect heightened security measures during Super Bowl or Olympics type events.  But it looks like security measures are being constantly expanded -- for better and for worse.

Who (or what) ate my lunch?  It's not any kind of disagreement about how much security we ought to have -- that's completely subjective would have been completely understandable.  It's the kind of "in your face" retort -- not arguing whether your position is right or wrong and why -- but a retort that tries to make you look like a total idiot -- as if you are espousing for NO security at all -- which, of course, is completely ridiculous.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 5:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Spending 80 times as much as the rest of the world on the military is different than making people go through medal detectors and checking your backpack. Just sayin'
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 5:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Marmotstew @ Jan. 31 2013, 2:15 pm)
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Spending 80 times as much as the rest of the world on the military is different than making people go through medal detectors and checking your backpack. Just sayin'

Yes, Marmot.  I was absolutely comparing military spending with domestic security.   :laugh:


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 7:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 2:13 pm)
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which, of course, is completely ridiculous.

And the notion that we are turning our nation "into one big camp of surveillance" is equally ridiculous.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 7:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Jan. 31 2013, 4:08 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 2:13 pm)
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which, of course, is completely ridiculous.

And the notion that we are turning our nation "into one big camp of surveillance" is equally ridiculous.

I wish you were right... but feel free to google around for which government in the world makes the most requests for personal info. from Google and Twitter (to name but two popular social websites).  Not just a lot of requests -- but the most in the world.  Add to that the ever increasing number of surveillance cameras... and you get the idea.

But we are not just talking about our government -- as pervasive as that might be.  Factor in the countless (and ever increasing) private surveillance cameras too!

The GREAT THING is that potential criminals will think twice (the UPS guy who was caught red handed on camera trying to steal an iPad comes to mind) -- but when tools become ubiquitous -- the potential for abuse rises too.  Yes, potential, but not "ridiculously" remote either.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 8:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I was on bus from Chiang Mai to a Burmese town on the border and there was this guy going on about how he couldn't bear living in the U.S. because of all the heavy-handed security. We went through two checkpoints (everybody off the bus and check all IDs) well before we got to the border and one checkpoint on the way back to CM. And there was the usual border stuff. The guy appreciated me pointing out that this trip comprised more random domestic security checks in a day than I'd had in 60+ years in the US.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 8:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(buddero @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:13 pm)
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I was on bus from Chiang Mai to a Burmese town on the border and there was this guy going on about how he couldn't bear living in the U.S. because of all the heavy-handed security. We went through two checkpoints (everybody off the bus and check all IDs) well before we got to the border and one checkpoint on the way back to CM. And there was the usual border stuff. The guy appreciated me pointing out that this trip comprised more random domestic security checks in a day than I'd had in 60+ years in the US.

Is that a fair comparison -- US vs. Burma?  ???

How about US vs. Canada or Europe or Japan...  you know, open societies vs. other open societies??


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 8:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 8:15 pm)
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(buddero @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:13 pm)
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I was on bus from Chiang Mai to a Burmese town on the border and there was this guy going on about how he couldn't bear living in the U.S. because of all the heavy-handed security. We went through two checkpoints (everybody off the bus and check all IDs) well before we got to the border and one checkpoint on the way back to CM. And there was the usual border stuff. The guy appreciated me pointing out that this trip comprised more random domestic security checks in a day than I'd had in 60+ years in the US.

Is that a fair comparison -- US vs. Burma?  ???

How about US vs. Canada or Europe or Japan...  you know, open societies vs. other open societies??

Isn't London well noted for its extensive array of security cameras?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 8:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimInMD @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:19 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 8:15 pm)
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(buddero @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:13 pm)
QUOTE
I was on bus from Chiang Mai to a Burmese town on the border and there was this guy going on about how he couldn't bear living in the U.S. because of all the heavy-handed security. We went through two checkpoints (everybody off the bus and check all IDs) well before we got to the border and one checkpoint on the way back to CM. And there was the usual border stuff. The guy appreciated me pointing out that this trip comprised more random domestic security checks in a day than I'd had in 60+ years in the US.

Is that a fair comparison -- US vs. Burma?  ???

How about US vs. Canada or Europe or Japan...  you know, open societies vs. other open societies??

Isn't London well noted for its extensive array of security cameras?

Yes.

While not as onerous as Burma (not by a long shot) -- I see that as a continuous encroachment of a "watchful" government.  For better and for worse, both, of course.

Jim -- do I believe our government is too "big brotherly" today? Yes, a bit, but not devastatingly so.  My concern is the encroachment (see #8 above) -- how different currents seem to be pushing us along, and how there really is no "end point"...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No, it was in Thailand.

I share your concern about >security leading to >abuse. I don't even think it's potential - it's certain. At the same time, I've been way too close to several planned mass casualty events and about a mile from the guy who blew himself up in Bangkok last year. As intrusive or irritating and doofus as some security measures are, they seem like a necessary part of life these days.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 9:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(buddero @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:59 pm)
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No, it was in Thailand.

I share your concern about >security leading to >abuse. I don't even think it's potential - it's certain. At the same time, I've been way too close to several planned mass casualty events and about a mile from the guy who blew himself up in Bangkok last year. As intrusive or irritating and doofus as some security measures are, they seem like a necessary part of life these days.

Speaking for myself -- totally subjective and emotional subject...

I'd rather we remain a free and open society... with safeguards to prevent, say, 80% of potential incidents -- plus severe punishments and other deterrents toward would-be criminals -- than spending a whole lot more time, money, effort and curtailment of freedom -- to prevent, say, an additional 10%. We know we can never achieve 100%.

A rough comparison would be like managing traffic.  We can ban driving altogether and eliminate deaths from careless or drunk drivers.  But we don't do that because the cost to society is just too high.  Instead, through a combination of better freeway design, education, and penalties -- we "manage" the risk to an "acceptable" level.  Road deaths are in the tens of thousands each year, no?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2013, 11:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 9:02 pm)
QUOTE

(buddero @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:59 pm)
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No, it was in Thailand.

I share your concern about >security leading to >abuse. I don't even think it's potential - it's certain. At the same time, I've been way too close to several planned mass casualty events and about a mile from the guy who blew himself up in Bangkok last year. As intrusive or irritating and doofus as some security measures are, they seem like a necessary part of life these days.

Speaking for myself -- totally subjective and emotional subject...

I'd rather we remain a free and open society... with safeguards to prevent, say, 80% of potential incidents -- plus severe punishments and other deterrents toward would-be criminals -- than spending a whole lot more time, money, effort and curtailment of freedom -- to prevent, say, an additional 10%. We know we can never achieve 100%.

A rough comparison would be like managing traffic.  We can ban driving altogether and eliminate deaths from careless or drunk drivers.  But we don't do that because the cost to society is just too high.  Instead, through a combination of better freeway design, education, and penalties -- we "manage" the risk to an "acceptable" level.  Road deaths are in the tens of thousands each year, no?

Again I must agree.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 12:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Jan. 31 2013, 8:53 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 9:02 pm)
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(buddero @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE
No, it was in Thailand.

I share your concern about >security leading to >abuse. I don't even think it's potential - it's certain. At the same time, I've been way too close to several planned mass casualty events and about a mile from the guy who blew himself up in Bangkok last year. As intrusive or irritating and doofus as some security measures are, they seem like a necessary part of life these days.

Speaking for myself -- totally subjective and emotional subject...

I'd rather we remain a free and open society... with safeguards to prevent, say, 80% of potential incidents -- plus severe punishments and other deterrents toward would-be criminals -- than spending a whole lot more time, money, effort and curtailment of freedom -- to prevent, say, an additional 10%. We know we can never achieve 100%.

A rough comparison would be like managing traffic.  We can ban driving altogether and eliminate deaths from careless or drunk drivers.  But we don't do that because the cost to society is just too high.  Instead, through a combination of better freeway design, education, and penalties -- we "manage" the risk to an "acceptable" level.  Road deaths are in the tens of thousands each year, no?

Again I must agree.

Thank you.   :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 9:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Careful planning can get someone with evil intent through the most stringent security and anyone or group willing to die to reach an objective cannot ultimately be stopped. Even top law enforcement agencies like the Secret Service will admit they can't stop a group (a single individual working alone is a different matter) willing to sacrifice all to take out the POTUS. All they can do is make it very expensive in terms of materiál and personnel.

Having said that, while I think pro football is akin to kiddie porn, security in an attempt to prevent an attack at the Superbowl* isn't extreme.

*All I know about the SB is it's a big deal in football (and that's more than I want to know) but I don't know or care why.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 01 2013, 9:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jan. 31 2013, 9:02 pm)
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(buddero @ Jan. 31 2013, 5:59 pm)
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No, it was in Thailand.

I share your concern about >security leading to >abuse. I don't even think it's potential - it's certain. At the same time, I've been way too close to several planned mass casualty events and about a mile from the guy who blew himself up in Bangkok last year. As intrusive or irritating and doofus as some security measures are, they seem like a necessary part of life these days.

Speaking for myself -- totally subjective and emotional subject...

I'd rather we remain a free and open society... with safeguards to prevent, say, 80% of potential incidents -- plus severe punishments and other deterrents toward would-be criminals -- than spending a whole lot more time, money, effort and curtailment of freedom -- to prevent, say, an additional 10%. We know we can never achieve 100%.

A rough comparison would be like managing traffic.  We can ban driving altogether and eliminate deaths from careless or drunk drivers.  But we don't do that because the cost to society is just too high.  Instead, through a combination of better freeway design, education, and penalties -- we "manage" the risk to an "acceptable" level.  Road deaths are in the tens of thousands each year, no?

Great point Ben2!

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