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Topic: The Failings of the Mental Health System< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 11:27 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So the NRA was quick to find a straw man to blame, the mental health industry, and their minions were quick to promote the meme, as we've seen played out here...

So if the mental health system is to blame, what are you people who are promoting this meme willing to do about fixing the "system"? Anything?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 12:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The medicated and mentally ill murderers are responsible for their actions, not the mental health industry.

Working on getting these sociopaths help before they hurt anybody is the goal.

This will require friends, family and the mental health specialists all being on the same page.

This is a really important discussion that needs to be had by those who are specialists, as well as the families who have members with psychological needs.

It's been fun popping back in here at the forums! Nice to see some of the regulars as well as some new folks.

Unfortunately the tone is about the same. This isn't really a healthy environment for a true debate so I'm bowing out now.

Be kind to one another!  :)


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 12:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Although Ron. was quick to blame the mental health system for its failings, he's just as quick to bail on any discussion of how all the energy being put into banning weapons could better be used fixing what he calls a failing system. Guess some of these talking points just work better as Facebook memes.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 1:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

HighGravity
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willing to do about fixing the "system"? Anything?


For a start - mental health issues need to be given the same priority as other health issues by our government and by health insurance companies. It is a shame that so many health insurance companies limit treatment for mental health issues or even refuse to pay at all! Insurers have found fine print exclusions to circumvent the 1996 Mental Health Parity Act (MHPA). Few private market health plans include any mental health coverage at all.

Obamacare addresses this, Questions About Mental Health Insurance Coverage. But right now, people are deciding that they cannot afford mental health treatment - and are deciding to "tough it out" because the meds are so expensive - or the doctor visit required to get the prescription for the meds is so expensive.

So there are lots of mentally unstable people walking around in today's USA that would be treated in places like Canada and the UK. Note that Canada and the UK have fewer mass shootings too.

Then there is the fact that there are people that need to be institutionalized. Some need only a few months to be treated enough to enter society. Others are just too sick to ever be trusted to walk around in society. These people are the serial killers and mass murderers.

Government needs to step up and provide institutions for these people.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 2:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Feb. 02 2013, 1:49 pm)
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Government needs to step up and provide institutions for these people.

How do we pay for that?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 3:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 02 2013, 1:23 pm)
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(Bass @ Feb. 02 2013, 1:49 pm)
QUOTE
Government needs to step up and provide institutions for these people.

How do we pay for that?

We pay for the institutions and Medicaid treatment with tax money - just like Canada, the UK, France, and other industrialized countries do.

I suspect that fewer prisons will be required too.

Sometimes it is just necessary to increase taxes. It is worth it to provide a safer America and reduce the number of serial killers and mass killings.

The mentally ill just should not be roaming the streets untreated as they do in the US.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 5:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How about a bullet tax?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 8:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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How about a bullet tax?


Why not just take the money that presently goes to foreign aid - to build hospitals and treat the illness of foreigners - and use it to treat the illnesses of Americans? Too many Americans die each year because they can't afford medical care. Untreated mental illness is only a part of the problem. Untreated diabetes, hypertension, TB, hepatitis, HIV, etc kills thousands in America while America sends money to foreign countries to treat those same diseases.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 02 2013, 9:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Foreign aid is a tiny amount of money. One percent of the federal budget. How is that going to help?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 02 2013, 12:29 pm)
QUOTE
Although Ron. was quick to blame the mental health system for its failings, he's just as quick to bail on any discussion of how all the energy being put into banning weapons could better be used fixing what he calls a failing system. Guess some of these talking points just work better as Facebook memes.

Ron answered your question long before you asked it. But your not interested in fixing the problem. You still think guns have brains and fingers. Murder is as old as mankind, guns have been around for a few centuries. Why not just ban murder?


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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 02 2013, 9:08 pm)
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Foreign aid is a tiny amount of money. One percent of the federal budget. How is that going to help?

It would be a 50% increase in spending on mental health!!! How would you like a 50% raise at work???

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 03 2013, 10:12 am)
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Ron answered your question long before you asked it.

Where did Ron answer the question?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 03 2013, 10:24 am)
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(HighGravity @ Feb. 02 2013, 9:08 pm)
QUOTE
Foreign aid is a tiny amount of money. One percent of the federal budget. How is that going to help?

It would be a 50% increase in spending on mental health!!! How would you like a 50% raise at work???

Your math is off.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Really. We spend 113 billion on mental health and 56 billion on foreign aid. That's if you don't count the 14 billion we give to countries to arm themselves. You don't even know what the math is. Well now you do because I just told you.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 03 2013, 10:44 am)
QUOTE
Really. We spend 113 billion on mental health and 56 billion on foreign aid. That's if you don't count the 14 billion we give to countries to arm themselves. You don't even know what the math is. Well now you do because I just told you.

Are you under the impression that the mental health industry is solely funded by the American taxpayers?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 03 2013, 10:32 am)
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(Montecresto @ Feb. 03 2013, 10:12 am)
QUOTE
Ron answered your question long before you asked it.

Where did Ron answer the question?

Right. You weren't paying attention because you don't want to fix the problem of mentally deranged people who commit these crimes. Your more interested in restricting perfectly normal people.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You're not making sense. I was asking a question. Here it is again.
Where did Ron answer the question?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 11:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"I was asking a questions (sic)" for a guy always criticising others grammar, you sure have enough trouble with it yourself. I read all of Ron's posts with interest. The man made very good points, but I won't be looking them over just to prove a point to you. In fact it can't be done, you have your gun meme and you are sticking to it.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 11:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You seem to be making up a lot more things than normal this morning. Are you just desperate for attention? Where did Ron answer the question?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 11:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sense you like to point out others grammatical errors, the next time you make one, I will quote you first so that you won't be able to edit your posts as you have the last few times.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 11:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 03 2013, 11:31 am)
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Sense [sic] you like to point out others[sic] grammatical errors, the next time you make one, I will quote you first so that you won't be able to edit your posts as you have the last few times.

Okay. When did Ron answer the question?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 11:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Muslim world a model for dealing with mental health.

The first psychiatric hospital ward was founded in Baghdad in 705, and insane asylums were built in Fes in the early 8th century, Cairo in 800 and in Damascus and Aleppo in 1270. Insane patients were treated using baths, drugs, music and activities. In the centuries to come, The Muslim world would eventually serve as a critical way station of knowledge for Renaissance Europe, through the Latin translations of many scientific Islamic texts. Ibn-Sina's (Avicenna's) Canon of Medicine became the standard of medical science in Europe for centuries, together with works of Hippocrates and Galen.[16]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#Ancient_civilizations


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 1:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 03 2013, 9:24 am)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Feb. 02 2013, 9:08 pm)
QUOTE
Foreign aid is a tiny amount of money. One percent of the federal budget. How is that going to help?

It would be a 50% increase in spending on mental health!!! How would you like a 50% raise at work???

Don't forget that I also stated that health insurance cover mental health issues too:

QUOTE
For a start - mental health issues need to be given the same priority as other health issues by our government and by health insurance companies. It is a shame that so many health insurance companies limit treatment for mental health issues or even refuse to pay at all! Insurers have found fine print exclusions to circumvent the 1996 Mental Health Parity Act (MHPA). Few private market health plans include any mental health coverage at all.


So MUCH of the funding for mental health issurers would be provided by purchasers of health insurance by eliminating the fine print that health insurers use to deny coverage for mental health. I also pointed out that Obamacare is doing just that - after 2014.

I believe that the mass shooters are mentally ill and would not have committed their crimes had affordable mental health treatment been easily available in the US. That is why the US has so many gun murders compared with countries that make mental health treatment affordable and available. There are too many undiagnosed and untreated mentally ill people walking around in the US.

Only a small minority of these send anthrax and bombs through the mail, blow up abortion clinics or day care centers, commit mass murders, or become serial killers. But as the recent Sandy Hook and Colorado shootings show - they are a growing threat to society.

I also want all guns banned. But I hope that all the attention focused on the easy solution - banning guns - does not divert attention from the serious need to address the failing mental health system.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 1:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A lot of them show no signs of mental illness prior to killing lots of people.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 1:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 03 2013, 12:10 pm)
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A lot of them show no signs of mental illness prior to killing lots of people.

Maybe a few. After all, there is a point in time when a person becomes mentally ill.

But the majority were already shunned or had already isolated themselves from society - two signs of trouble. Even Ted Kaczynski's family suspected mental health issues and immediately recognized his writing style.

The cop that stopped Timothy McVeigh, and took him to jail for having a gun in his car immediately after the Oklahoma City bombing had suspicions about his mental health. Note that the pretext used to take him to jail in Oklahoma - a lax gun state - was openly having a gun in the car.

People just have a way of detecting a person who is mentally off. But IF, as in the US, treatment is expensive and unavailable, people just do what they can to cope. That is what Adam Lanza's mother was doing.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 8:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Feb. 03 2013, 1:29 pm)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Feb. 03 2013, 12:10 pm)
QUOTE
A lot of them show no signs of mental illness prior to killing lots of people.

Maybe a few. After all, there is a point in time when a person becomes mentally ill.

But the majority were already shunned or had already isolated themselves from society - two signs of trouble. Even Ted Kaczynski's family suspected mental health issues and immediately recognized his writing style.

The cop that stopped Timothy McVeigh, and took him to jail for having a gun in his car immediately after the Oklahoma City bombing had suspicions about his mental health. Note that the pretext used to take him to jail in Oklahoma - a lax gun state - was openly having a gun in the car.

People just have a way of detecting a person who is mentally off. But IF, as in the US, treatment is expensive and unavailable, people just do what they can to cope. That is what Adam Lanza's mother was doing.

Both the shootings you mentioned involved shooters that did show signs of mental health problems so you are correct. Your also correct about going for the easy target. Sweeping the cause under the rug.

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