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Topic: Gun Killings Statistics, Many by Police< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 7:33 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No one wants to talk about the fact that many of the gun deaths in the US are police shootings.

I have repeatedly pointed out that armed police are a major part of the problem in the US. A lot can be learned from London, where only special police, seldom seen by the public, are armed. The armed US police are the reason for the "arms race" in America.

US gun control needs to start with disarming the police.

Gun Violence: The Conversation We Won't Have

From the article:
Gun-related violence by government-licensed killers is ubiquitous – and it is also a forbidden subject in the "national conversation" our rulers have orchestrated for their benefit.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 7:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Don't you think we are past the point where the bad guys are going to lay down their weapons if the police are unarmed?

Prosecutors used to be off limits even for the mob.

Police investigating in prosecutor slaying

The problem isn't armed police officers.  The problem is no-knock raids and forced entries.  That's what should be stopped. It risks both officer and innocent's lives.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
US gun control needs to start with disarming the police.

You are delusional.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Feb. 03 2013, 7:47 pm)
QUOTE
The problem isn't armed police officers.  The problem is no-knock raids and forced entries.  That's what should be stopped. It risks both officer and innocent's lives.

I agree.   Whatever happened to surrounding a place, identifying yourself as LE and telling the occupants to come out with their hands up.

I think most law abiding citizens if they hear their door getting broken down in the middle of the night, conclude it's violent crimnals, not police serving a warrant, and react accordingly.

I also think the whole drug forfeiture of property without a  "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of evidence is not in keeping with the rule of law.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2013, 10:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

From an older, 1998 article, Why Bobbies Have No Guns:

"The risks are far greater with routine arming of police," says Pollard. "If we arm up, criminals will arm up more." Senior police officers also argue that routine arming would end "policing by consent"--enforcing the law with the public's cooperation and respect.

and

The police are equally anxious to keep firearms off the streets and, for the most part, see no way to do it except by leaving their guns at the station.

There are more guns now, due to the creation of special units to handle terrorism. But there is still an effort to keep the public view of the street Bobbie as a community member who polices with consent.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 6:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Part of Britain's (and Europe) anti-gun stance and citizen compliance stem from hundreds of years of monarchy rule where only the ruling class had real weapons and possession of anything that could kill a member of that class was punishable by death.

Ever hear "The cowards never left and the weak died along the way."? This created a whole different mindset and way of life than what was left behind across the pond.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 8:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Montanalonewolf
QUOTE
Britain's (and Europe) anti-gun stance and citizen compliance


But the gun culture in the US is dying out. More people are realizing that guns must be banned.

US politicians may SAY that they only want to ban certain types of guns - just semi-autos or sniper rifles or handguns. They realize that there is enough of the gun culture left that it would be hard to say that they want to ban ALL guns. They know that it is political suicide to advocate banning ALL guns today. So they are content to go about banning all guns in small steps. First "assault rifles", then all semi-autos, then sniper rifles, etc. - until ALL guns are banned.

I recently watched an episode of the A&E TV series "Duck Dynasty" that demonstrates how the gun culture is fading away and society is changing. In this episode, the older family members tried to interest the younger people in going frog hunting but found that the younger members had no interest in hunting or shooting guns. All over the US, hunting and guns are a dying tradition. Today's young people are tomorrow's voters.

As those traditions die out, an anti-gun sentiment grows. That is what is happening in the US.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 8:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Feb. 04 2013, 8:05 am)
QUOTE
Montanalonewolf
QUOTE
Britain's (and Europe) anti-gun stance and citizen compliance


But the gun culture in the US is dying out. More people are realizing that guns must be banned.

I don't think that's true at all. There seems to be more obsession with guns than ever, due in large part to NRA propaganda under Lapierre.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 8:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Your saying that politicians want a total ban on guns but are too afraid to say it. Well, I believe you are correct. That there are so many here that ridicule that idea notwithstanding.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 8:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 04 2013, 8:14 am)
QUOTE
Your saying that politicians want a total ban on guns but are too afraid to say it. Well, I believe you are correct. That there are so many here that ridicule that idea notwithstanding.

But you also believe that Aurora was a gov't conspiracy, so there's that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 10:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Feb. 03 2013, 7:33 pm)
QUOTE
US gun control needs to start with disarming the police.

You really should consider putting down the crack pipe.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 11:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

From a blog:

In 2011, according to data I have collected, police officers in the United States shot 1,146  people, killing 607. Since January 1, 2011, I have been using the internet to compile a national database of police involved shootings. The term "police involved shooting" pertains to law enforcement officers who, in the line of duty, discharge their guns. When journalists and police administrators use the term, they include the shooting of animals and shots that miss their targets. My case files only include instances in which a person is either killed or wounded by police gunfire. My data also includes off-duty officers who discharged their weapons in law enforcement situations. They don't include, for example, officers using their firearms to resolve personal disputes.

    I collected this data myself because the U.S. Government doesn't. There is no national database dedicated to police involved shootings. Alan Maimon, in his article, "National Data on Shootings by Police Not Collected," published on November 28, 2011 in the "Las Vegas Review-Journal," wrote "The nation's leading law enforcement agency [FBI] collects vast amounts of information on crime nationwide, but missing from this clearinghouse are statistics on where, how often, and under what circumstances police use deadly force. In fact, no one anywhere comprehensively tracks the most significant act police can do in the line of duty: take a life."


http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2012....al.html

According to the CDC, there were 32,163 firearm-related deaths in 2011 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf). Nearly 20,000 were suicides; and there were 11,015 homicides. Thus, approximately 5.5% of all assault-related firearm deaths are the result of police shootings.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 4:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The government tends to shy away from tracking their own misdeeds, it's rather counterproductive to do so.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 5:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Has it been determined that 100% of police involved shootings should be characterized as "misdeeds" by the police?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 5:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I guess this further confirms that the vaunted statistics on "gun deaths" are misleading since they include suicides, police shootings, private citizen self defense shootings, and other "justifiable" shootings.  These shootings account for the vast majority of "gun deaths".
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 5:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

All of which go down significantly with fewer guns in circulation. Not sure what's misleading about that, but then again, you say a lot of weird stuff.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 5:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

One less gun nut in the world:

http://www.cnn.com/2013....t=hp_t1
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 6:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 04 2013, 5:01 pm)
QUOTE
Has it been determined that 100% of police involved shootings should be characterized as "misdeeds" by the police?

Sense they aren't keeping track of those statistics one must only wonder.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 9:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
the older family members tried to interest the younger people in going frog hunting

No one hunts frogs with any kind of firearm.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2013, 9:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
According to the CDC, there were 32,163 firearm-related deaths in 2011 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf). Nearly 20,000 were suicides; and there were 11,015 homicides. Thus, approximately 5.5% of all assault-related firearm deaths are the result of police shootings.


That's a percent of overall shootings.

There are about 800,000 cops in the US. This works out to a shooting rate of about 0.076%
There are about 140 million gun owners in the US (guns dying out?). This works out to a shooting rate of 0.0074% or roughly 1/10 of cops.

This means you're 10x more likely to be shot by an on-duty cop than a civilian gun owner. The other stat I've mentioned is you're ~4x as likely to be involved in a mass shooting rampage by a cop who's gone 'round the bend than any other type of whackjob.

Guess Bass is right. Disarm the cops.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 05 2013, 8:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 04 2013, 9:41 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
According to the CDC, there were 32,163 firearm-related deaths in 2011 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf). Nearly 20,000 were suicides; and there were 11,015 homicides. Thus, approximately 5.5% of all assault-related firearm deaths are the result of police shootings.


That's a percent of overall shootings.

There are about 800,000 cops in the US. This works out to a shooting rate of about 0.076%
There are about 140 million gun owners in the US (guns dying out?). This works out to a shooting rate of 0.0074% or roughly 1/10 of cops.

This means you're 10x more likely to be shot by an on-duty cop than a civilian gun owner. The other stat I've mentioned is you're ~4x as likely to be involved in a mass shooting rampage by a cop who's gone 'round the bend than any other type of whackjob.

Guess Bass is right. Disarm the cops.

Not sure what you mean by "overall" shootings.
607 shot by cop / 11,015 total homocides = 5.5%

I would expect that the shooting rates for cops would be higher... putting themselves in harms way and the like. I don't see many civilians patroling the ghettos at 2am.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 05 2013, 8:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Montanalonewolf
QUOTE
Guess Bass is right. Disarm the cops.


Here we go - agreeing again.

But my OP was that we START by disarming the police. That stops the current arms race where police get better guns, then the criminals arm themselves with even better guns - then citizens, in order to protect themselves from the criminals, must get even better guns. This arms race can only be stopped the way that UK stopped it - by disarming the police!

The culture of the US is not like the culture of say, Japan. Simply banning guns for citizens and not the police will just make a lot of gunowners into outlaws because of this "arms race"!

WE must start by disarming the police and becoming concerned about how the police are perceived by the public. Policing by consent is important.

Unfortunately US police are alienating themselves from citizens with their "stop and frisk and steal" and "policing for profit" and trigger happy mentality as pointed out in the OP article. In the minds of more and people, this new type of police are the enemy.

Montanalonewolf
QUOTE
you're 10x more likely to be shot by an on-duty cop than a civilian gun owner. The other stat I've mentioned is you're ~4x as likely to be involved in a mass shooting rampage by a cop who's gone 'round the bend than any other type of whackjob.


That is what so many in the US don't realize!
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 05 2013, 8:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

WalksWithBlackflies
QUOTE
According to the CDC, there were 32,163 firearm-related deaths in 2011 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf). Nearly 20,000 were suicides; and there were 11,015 homicides. Thus, approximately 5.5% of all assault-related firearm deaths are the result of police shootings.


Great link!
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 06 2013, 7:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

[sarcasm]Guess Bass is right. Disarm the cops.[/sarcasm]

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 06 2013, 9:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's like nukes. Everyone gets to have them or no one gets to have them. No unfair advantages.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 06 2013, 10:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Feb. 04 2013, 8:05 am)
QUOTE
Montanalonewolf
QUOTE
Britain's (and Europe) anti-gun stance and citizen compliance


But the gun culture in the US is dying out. More people are realizing that guns must be banned.

I must live in a different U.S. than you.  The gun culture in the U.S. will not die out, and is actuallty growing stronger with more and more states enacting concealed carry laws.  Try to take guns away and there will be an insurrection.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 07 2013, 12:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Feb. 06 2013, 8:27 pm)
QUOTE

(Bass @ Feb. 04 2013, 8:05 am)
QUOTE
Montanalonewolf
QUOTE
Britain's (and Europe) anti-gun stance and citizen compliance


But the gun culture in the US is dying out. More people are realizing that guns must be banned.

I must live in a different U.S. than you.  The gun culture in the U.S. will not die out, and is actuallty growing stronger with more and more states enacting concealed carry laws.  Try to take guns away and there will be an insurrection.

Oh ya, the gun culture is dying out so fast that just a few years back, after the dems enacted some gun bans they lost the House and Senate. Now they are afraid it will happen again.

That would be a wise choice to remember. :D
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 07 2013, 12:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

justwalkin
QUOTE
I must live in a different U.S. than you.  The gun culture in the U.S. will not die out, and is actuallty growing stronger


From Twelve facts about guns in the US, fact #7:
“For all the attention given to America’s culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows,” writes political scientist Patrick Egan. The decline is most evident on the General Social Survey, though it also shows up on polling from Gallup, as you can see on this graph:

The bottom line, Egan writes, is that “long-term trends suggest that we are in fact currently experiencing a waning culture of guns and violence in the United States. “
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 07 2013, 1:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Montanalonewolf
QUOTE
No one hunts frogs with any kind of firearm.


After reading your post, I checked, and it was confirmed that the frog hunters don't carry guns when hunting the tree frogs. So instead of shooting each other, they are most likely to be injured when they fall out of the tree.

I had always just assumed that hunting was a dangerous sport because of all the loaded guns being carried around in the woods. I never would have suspected that falling out of trees was the way most hunters are injured!

You learn something new every day.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 07 2013, 8:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

One thing you're missing about gun ownership stats is those figures are pulled from gun buying rolls, hunting license lists, gun registrations and polls where only those who admit to owning one (or more) are counted.

There are a significant number of owners who do not admit to an unknown person they do own firearms and plus legally owned firearms that are not registered.

I'll even make a WAG there are avowed anti-gun proponents who actually keep a gun in their own "just in case" and such people will never publicly admit they have one.


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