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Bass 
Group: Members
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 8:04 am |
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Sierra Club Urges TVA to Move Beyond Coal
Closing each dirty paper mill, oil refinery, steel mill, and manufacturing facility has resulted in incremental improvements in US air quality, but coal-fired power plants still pollute. The air that we breathe, though much cleaner, is still being fouled by harmful pollutants — including mercury, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides.
But now the Sierra Club and other environmental groups in Tennessee are targeting coal-fired power plants and urging their closings. As a result of Sierra Club urging, TVA’s plants are at their lowest pollution levels ever, and the agency has committed to retiring 18 coal-fired power plant units. The Sierra Club contends TVA should focus on energy efficiency programs.
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| Post Number: 2
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Montecresto
Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 8:31 am |
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We have apparently walked on the moon, we have our first bionic man (artificial intelligence coming), growing organs and transplanting limbs, and so much more fascinating technology, but we're still powering up with dirty nasty non renewable fuels. The sun powers my house and could power the planet.
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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| Post Number: 3
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4808
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 9:45 am |
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The problem is there really are no viable economic replacements at this time.
Solar is great... when you live somewhere with year 'round sun: won't work in many places.
Wind... same thing.
No one wants to accept new hydro these days although it is one that would be virtually 100% reversible in the future.
Nukes... no one wants one anywhere near them and with regulations, none will get built.
True that something must be done but shutting down any power plant causes shortages.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 4
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cgaphiker
Hen Wallow Falls
Group: Members
Posts: 11007
Joined: Apr. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 12:08 pm |
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My local TVA power plant just made the switch from coal to natural gas. They also announced last year or the year before that they were buying wind energy from one of the Dakotas.
It's a start.
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| Post Number: 6
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Marmotstew
Group: Members
Posts: 8703
Joined: May 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 1:25 pm |
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But but what about all the canaries that will be out of a job?
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I'd rather be Facebooking watching videos of cats licking themselves
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| Post Number: 7
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4808
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 8:51 pm |
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(GoBlueHiker @ Feb. 08 2013, 9:59 am)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 08 2013, 7:45 am)
QUOTE The problem is there really are no viable economic replacements at this time.
Solar is great... when you live somewhere with year 'round sun: won't work in many places.
Wind... same thing.
No one wants to accept new hydro these days although it is one that would be virtually 100% reversible in the future.
Nukes... no one wants one anywhere near them and with regulations, none will get built.
True that something must be done but shutting down any power plant causes shortages. At one point last year Germany was creating over half its energy from solar alone. And Germany hardly has "year 'round sun." Spain creates more energy from wind than any other source. And all those countries continue to ramp it up. Anyone thinking about it intelligently knows that diversity of sources is a key to true energy security and independence. Your contention that "it can't be done viably" is just industry-fueled propaganda. The rest of the world is leaving us in the dust by proving otherwise.
Yes, many alternative energy sources are viable but not economically feasible.
A homeowner in Bozeman was lauded for making many "green" improvements to their house during remodeling but those improvements cost in excess of $100,000. Too bad it will take over 100 years to offset that expense.
I'm not disagreeing that something needs to be done but it can't be done overnight or even over a single decade.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 8
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4808
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 8:59 am |
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Costs will continue to determine what energy sources we use. Wanting clean air is great and I want it too. That's why I'm a rural dweller... I can't stand the air quality in an urban area. But shutting down coal plants before there's a replacement in place pushes power prices higher and reduces what is available. That may not bother those who can afford it but to someone who's borderline on being able to afford power is not going to care about the negative effects of burning coal. A social conscience will only come into play when someone is warm and fed with a decent job and a bank account.
Like it or not, and I don't, coal fired plants will be with us for a long while yet.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 10
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
Group: Members
Posts: 10801
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 10:36 am |
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Which is a good stop gap measure. Reducing pollution while searching for a better alternative. In Oregon, we are pressuring the state to revoke the licenses for all coal fired power plants. We have plenty of available space for wind.
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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| Post Number: 12
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Ecocentric
Group: Members
Posts: 3846
Joined: Jun. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 5:38 pm |
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Payback on a PV installation for a moderate sized home is about ten years, hardly unaffordable. Since utilities make capitol investment in power plants that require a far longer payback, one could argue that there is more money to be made by financing home installations for solar power, and upgrading to a smart grid that better deals with a distributed power supply.
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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| Post Number: 13
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cevans
Group: Members
Posts: 618
Joined: Dec. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2013, 2:15 pm |
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(GoBlueHiker @ Feb. 08 2013, 11:59 am)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 08 2013, 7:45 am)
QUOTE The problem is there really are no viable economic replacements at this time.
Solar is great... when you live somewhere with year 'round sun: won't work in many places.
Wind... same thing.
No one wants to accept new hydro these days although it is one that would be virtually 100% reversible in the future.
Nukes... no one wants one anywhere near them and with regulations, none will get built.
True that something must be done but shutting down any power plant causes shortages. At one point last year Germany was creating over half its energy from solar alone. And Germany hardly has "year 'round sun." Spain creates more energy from wind than any other source. And all those countries continue to ramp it up. Anyone thinking about it intelligently knows that diversity of sources is a key to true energy security and independence. Your contention that "it can't be done viably" is just industry-fueled propaganda. The rest of the world is leaving us in the dust by proving otherwise.
I just read somewhere Germany is going back to coal..can't find it now tho..still looking.
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If it can't be done outdoors, its not much worth doing!
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| Post Number: 14
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39588
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 10 2013, 2:29 pm |
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Germany generated half its power needs from solar at some point last year? Given http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012....llapses Uses a far different percentage I'd like to see some data. Granted that articles tone was negative overall but their 0.3% of total power solar generated is to different from that o ignore.
"Indeed, despite the massive investment, solar power accounts for only about 0.3% of Germany’s total energy. This is one of the key reasons why Germans now pay the second-highest price for electricity in the developed world (exceeded only by Denmark, which aims to be the “world wind-energy champion”)."
Maybe the EIA has data.
Reuters writes 3% "FRANKFURT, Dec 29 (Reuters) - German solar power producers raised electricity output in 2011 by 60 percent over 2010 to 18 billion kilowatt hours, grabbing more than 3 percent of total power output volumes, its lobby group Bundesverband Solarwirtschaft (BSW) said on Thursday... BSW said if there were reliable conditions, the industry would continue with targets to supply 10 percent of all power by 2020. (Reporting by Vera Eckert; editing by James Jukwey)"
http://www.reuters.com/article....sp=true
ETA: Ah for a cloudless Friday afternoon.... http://www.smartplanet.com/blog....54
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39588
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:39 pm |
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"Reducing demand doesn't negate the supply-side discussion."
Didn't imply otherwise. Though I stand by my judgement that conservation is the better deal. Efficient use of energy, not some LaLa Land "zero".
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| Post Number: 20
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Ecocentric
Group: Members
Posts: 3846
Joined: Jun. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 5:32 pm |
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I agree that conservation is an important goal, but that seems to run contrary to an American sense of entitlement.
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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| Post Number: 21
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| Post Number: 22
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Ecocentric
Group: Members
Posts: 3846
Joined: Jun. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 5:50 pm |
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I conserve in many ways, but you've read many of the same posts that I have from people that refuse to give up their inefficient light bulbs.
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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| Post Number: 24
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craigwill
Group: Members
Posts: 159
Joined: Nov. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 11:33 pm |
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If you want to judge renewables on economics, you need to look at the full picture:
"BOSTON, Feb 16 (Reuters) - The United States' reliance on coal to generate almost half of its electricity, costs the economy about $345 billion a year in hidden expenses not borne by miners or utilities, including health problems in mining communities and pollution around power plants, a study found. Those costs would effectively triple the price of electricity produced by coal-fired plants, which are prevalent in part due to the their low cost of operation, the study led by a Harvard University researcher found."
http://www.reuters.com/article....0110216
Regarding our cost for protecting our oil supply:
"As U.S. operations in Iraq end, tallying up the costs and benefits of a nine-year ordeal is a daunting task. Estimates on Iraq War spending vary. The Congressional Research Service has put the Operation Iraqi Freedom pricetag at $806 billion. President Obama said that the Iraq War would cost over $1 trillion, all told."
http://www.usnews.com/news....u-think
Fossil fuels are more expensive even without figuring in the deaths of soldiers and miners.
For a reference on current solar power costs:
"Solar Energy Industry Electricity Prices - March 2012 Update
The solar electricity index draws exclusively upon the high power band (>125 watts) solar module prices in our survey. This price segment was down 2 cents per watt in March from the prior month. The charge controller index was down, but the inverter and battery indexes held steady. Overall, the high solar condition industrial industry index was down to 15.15 cents per kWh in March 2012."
http://www.solarbuzz.com/facts-a....-prices
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| Post Number: 25
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Montecresto
Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 12 2013, 9:58 am |
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4% today, 10% in 2020, 50% in 2040, 75% in 2075 and 100% in 2100! Sounds good.
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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| Post Number: 26
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Chuck D
Group: Members
Posts: 7360
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 12 2013, 10:07 am |
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Of course there can be issues with wind power.
http://www.kcet.org/news....es.html
Do we need to rethink our entire power structure?
Instead of the big central power station do we convert to a decentralized system using solar and wind to power individual buildings and homes.
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Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
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| Post Number: 27
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Montecresto
Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 12 2013, 10:13 am |
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We have the largest nuclear power plant delivering power to the planet everyday, it's free, it's dependable (5 billion years remaining shelf life) and its clean. It sources all life in addition.
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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| Post Number: 28
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Montecresto
Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 12 2013, 10:14 am |
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(Chuck D @ Feb. 12 2013, 10:07 am)
QUOTE Of course there can be issues with wind power. http://www.kcet.org/news....es.htmlDo we need to rethink our entire power structure? Instead of the big central power station do we convert to a decentralized system using solar and wind to power individual buildings and homes.
Yes.
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
