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hbfa 
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 10:11 am |
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Both are in bad taste, IMO.
But if you are unable to see the distinct difference on your own, I'm certain I wouldn't be able to explain it to you.
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double cabin
Group: Members
Posts: 15428
Joined: Nov. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 10:18 am |
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One is unequivocally racist, the other simply comical. I agree they are both in bad taste since tourism is for many of us the biggest industry in our communities. without tourism Jackson could easily look like Rawlins.
It is truly sad so many people in this country focus on the illegal immigrants and not the corporate entities that are the only things motivating them to come here. The immigrants come and generally work incredibly hard and pay billions in taxes they will never collect on and are an unequivocal net gain for our economy despite the deceitful, hateful assertions they get too much in services. The corporations are making a profit on human misery.
I still believe the statue on Ellis Island's words are the essence of what America should be. We are better than the way it is now. We need a real Guest Worker Program and far more reasonable path to citizenship.
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We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.
http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=129511480442251
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| Post Number: 5
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star
Group: Members
Posts: 2773
Joined: Jun. 2008
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 10:25 am |
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While we may JOKE about the tourists, we sure can't deny that we need them, or that we aren't darned glad to see them start showing up in the Spring. Our problems are with the more rare individuals that display boorish behavior than with the group as a whole.
As long as we're comparing the two.
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If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
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| Post Number: 6
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TehipiteTom
Group: Members
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Joined: Jul. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 10:44 am |
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Just for the record, I have never actually put a "Remember the Alamo - Kill a Texan" bumpersticker on my car.
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If tautologies are outlawed, only outlaws will use tautologies.
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| Post Number: 7
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star
Group: Members
Posts: 2773
Joined: Jun. 2008
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 10:54 am |
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I wonder how many of these anti immigration folk are in touch with their families roots in this country? I know the stories of my family moving here, their struggles to assimilate and get a start. I knew many of the people from those stories personally. I think that makes a difference in ones understanding.
Being in the Dells all these years, I also know a far more ethnically diverse group of immigrants than most. We have by far mostly Eastern Europeans, and noone seems to mind them in the least.
Do they use the immigrant labor to underpay us? You're darned tootin' they do. But that is the fault of the employer, and the system that makes it far more advantageous to hire them, rather than the fault of the person who responded to an ad for help. How can anyone find fault with someone willing to work for a living?
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If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
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| Post Number: 8
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| Post Number: 9
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star
Group: Members
Posts: 2773
Joined: Jun. 2008
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 11:24 am |
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Much is made of them being willing to work for less, rarely do you hear about the employer not being required to pay them more. They aren't required to pay them minimum wage or overtime, housing and meals are often provided that are then deducted from pay. Many times their pay is withheld until it's time for them to go home. I've seen a lot of disappointment over what some of these kids wind up with after a long summer of hard work.
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If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
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| Post Number: 10
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wwwest
Group: Members
Posts: 4057
Joined: Dec. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 1:31 pm |
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Just one more ugly example of our culture of violence. Violence is encouraged and applauded at every opportunity.
Not so popular with law eforcement officials in Southern California today, neh?
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| Post Number: 11
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23917
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 3:26 pm |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 08 2013, 7:06 am)
QUOTE Not that I think it's funny but is this inherently any different than the one that reads "If It's Called Tourist Season, Why Can't We Shoot Them?" that I've never heard complaints about? QUOTE Outrage Over 'Illegal Immigrant Hunting Permit' Bumper Sticker In Colorado http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....D267620
Both are in bad taste indeed. But the immigrant one is far worse, and I'll tell you the difference.
Tourists are generally viewed as privileged -- or at least middle class. By comparison, immigrants generally struggle at or near the bottom of our economic ladder.
Most people feel differently about joking at the expense of the downtrodden among us.
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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| Post Number: 12
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Altarboy
Group: Members
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Joined: Jan. 2011
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 4:12 pm |
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Yeah that's kinda mean. Build the fence, but don't shoot them.
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| Post Number: 13
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39564
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 4:22 pm |
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"Fence"?
Yeah because while the entire Atlantic Ocean doesn't keep people from South America from illegally immigrating to Spain a magic fence along through California, Arizona and Texas will, plus of course, Canada.
It's the incentives that have to be dealt with not "stimulating" the fence industry to no purpose.
Biometric national employment ID and some real teeth and enforcement penalties for companies employing people without same.
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Gabby
Group: Members
Posts: 5492
Joined: Jun. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 4:52 pm |
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(TehipiteTom @ Feb. 08 2013, 9:44 am)
QUOTE Just for the record, I have never actually put a "Remember the Alamo - Kill a Texan" bumpersticker on my car. Well, I have…as well as one reading:
“Kill an unborn gay baby whale for Jesus!”
(one of my alltime favorites, though I like yours a lot more!)
(EastieTrekker @ Feb. 08 2013, 9:15 am)
QUOTE
...
And I think you don't see clamor about the tourist sticker because, well, tourism isn't a controversial political topic.
Well, yes, of course. (And a great big ol’ “DUH!”)
(Ben2World @ Feb. 08 2013, 2:26 pm)
QUOTE Both are in bad taste indeed. [Don't agree that both are, but your second paragraph explains why I might think the "tourist one" is different...] But the immigrant one is far worse, and I'll tell you the difference.
Tourists are generally viewed as privileged -- or at least middle class. By comparison, immigrants generally struggle at or near the bottom of our economic ladder.
Most people feel differently about joking at the expense of the downtrodden among us. [And this was my first take on this particular subject, so we have at least one thing in common (perhaps more, LOL.)]
(double cabin @ Feb. 08 2013, 9:18 am)
QUOTE One is unequivocally racist, the other simply comical. I agree they are both in bad taste since tourism is for many of us the biggest industry in our communities. without tourism Jackson could easily look like Rawlins.
It is truly sad so many people in this country focus on the illegal immigrants and not the corporate entities that are the only things motivating them to come here. The immigrants come and generally work incredibly hard and pay billions in taxes they will never collect on and are an unequivocal net gain for our economy despite the deceitful, hateful assertions they get too much in services. The corporations are making a profit on human misery.
I still believe the statue on Ellis Island's words are the essence of what America should be. We are better than the way it is now. We need a real Guest Worker Program and far more reasonable path to citizenship. ...and the winner is... ta da! (Why is it that at least some people use their noggins, and others just read right wing blogs and repeat them?) Emotionally, however, I have a very strong reaction to the “Ellis Island” reference, dc. We used to be a very different country, didn’t we? One composed of people actually moving away from oppression and searching for a new life to satisfy our dreams of “something better”. I too am a third generation (only) immigrant – but from Sweden in the late 19th century. There’s a reason why there’s a little community east of the Austin metropolitan area named “New Sweden”.
(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 08 2013, 3:22 pm)
QUOTE "Fence"?
Yeah because while the entire Atlantic Ocean doesn't keep people from South America from illegally immigrating to Spain a magic fence along through California, Arizona and Texas will, plus of course, Canada.
It's the incentives that have to be dealt with not "stimulating" the fence industry to no purpose.
Biometric national employment ID and some real teeth and enforcement penalties for companies employing people without same. The absolutely practical, no-nonsense, non-subjective answer. Huzzah, HSF! I like this one better than the others, but only because there's no need for emotional subjectivity. Makes most of the opposition to immigrants seem stupid, doesn't it? All of us, 'cept for the indigenous redmen, are, in fact, "immigrants"!
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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HighGravity
Group: Members
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 5:05 pm |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 08 2013, 10:06 am)
QUOTE Not that I think it's funny but is this inherently any different than the one that reads "If It's Called Tourist Season, Why Can't We Shoot Them?" that I've never heard complaints about? QUOTE Outrage Over 'Illegal Immigrant Hunting Permit' Bumper Sticker In Colorado http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....D267620
Um...yeah it is. And if you can't tell the difference, there's something wrong with you.
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39564
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 5:19 pm |
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Small detail:
Any wording on Ellis Island probably asks everyone with a venereal disease to step over to the second door on the left... it being the immigrant processing and medical quarantine station.
The Statue of Liberty is on "Liberty Island", not Ellis as is the "The New Colossus" Plaque with the "give us your.." line
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| Post Number: 18
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Gabby
Group: Members
Posts: 5492
Joined: Jun. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 5:23 pm |
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QUOTE All of us, 'cept for the indigenous redmen, are, in fact, "immigrants"! Replying to my own posts in order to boost my post numbers - again.
Reading a recent article on DNA patterns and human migration (an article that was using something only vaguely differentiated from the old racist arguments using "scientific measurements" of skull proportions, for instance, to identify the reasons "why Anglo-Saxons" were so much better than other races, red, brown, black and yellow...IMHO), even the redmen were immigrants, assuming you go back far enough......
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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| Post Number: 19
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double cabin
Group: Members
Posts: 15428
Joined: Nov. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 5:46 pm |
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thanks for the correction HSF. Major Brain Fart. Remember CA Governor Wilson standing in front of the Statue getting grilled on the today show?
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We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.
http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=129511480442251
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Old Frank
Group: Members
Posts: 624
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 6:21 pm |
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The auto repair businesses strongly encourage the use of these stickers.
Repairing keyed scratches is a big part of their business.
(The med clinics who repair whupped arses like 'em, too).
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My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
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| Post Number: 22
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4795
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 8:44 pm |
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Both are in poor taste.
Considering illegal immigrants are of all nationalities and all races, as are tourists, how can one be racist and the other not?
It's racist to assume that "illegal immigrant" refers only to a minority race.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 23
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Gabby
Group: Members
Posts: 5492
Joined: Jun. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 08 2013, 9:04 pm |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 08 2013, 7:44 pm)
QUOTE Both are in poor taste.
Considering illegal immigrants are of all nationalities and all races, as are tourists, how can one be racist and the other not?
It's racist to assume that "illegal immigrant" refers only to a minority race.
You are, my dear friend, one very, very confused person. But, hey, you are entitled to your opinion, however screwed up and wacko it actually is…
ETA: To clarify, it's not an issue of "race", as much as it's an issue of "class", though even that doesn't cover it as well, or nearly as accurately, as some of the other entries above have already.
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4795
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 8:46 am |
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(Gabby @ Feb. 08 2013, 7:04 pm)
QUOTE You are, my dear friend, one very, very confused person. But, hey, you are entitled to your opinion, however screwed up and wacko it actually is…
Confused? Nope.
Bumper stickers, slogans, what-have-you, that make "jokes" about shooting anyone are in very poor taste and unacceptable regardless of who they're "targeting". Particularly considering today's political atmosphere concerning guns.
All you anti-gun whackjobs should get that.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 27
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double cabin
Group: Members
Posts: 15428
Joined: Nov. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 10:39 am |
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With all due respect illegal immigration in this country is rarely exercised by Caucasians. We don't see a lot of folks clamoring for a sea wall like we do for a fence in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.
Mark,
Before the Obama Administration's crackdown one third of our agricultural workers were undocumented and have kept the price of food down for all of us for generations.
Please show me Federal Government "gifts" that remotely approach the billions in SS Taxes illegal immigrants never collect on. Medical, Education? you were kidding, right?
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We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.
http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=129511480442251
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markinOhio
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 10:51 am |
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As long as the are illegal, they cannot (legally) collect the benefits. But, once again, how does changing their status from illegal to legal change that net balance?
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| Post Number: 29
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HighGravity
Group: Members
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Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 11:45 am |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 09 2013, 8:46 am)
QUOTE
(Gabby @ Feb. 08 2013, 7:04 pm)
QUOTE You are, my dear friend, one very, very confused person. But, hey, you are entitled to your opinion, however screwed up and wacko it actually is… Confused? Nope. Bumper stickers, slogans, what-have-you, that make "jokes" about shooting anyone are in very poor taste and unacceptable regardless of who they're "targeting". Particularly considering today's political atmosphere concerning guns. All you anti-gun whackjobs should get that.
This thread makes about as much sense as your alcohol equals ammo argument.
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| Post Number: 30
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star
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Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 12:40 pm |
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Hi. I think I may be the only one here that works with all these immigrants. It's a little more complicated than some here are putting forth. Those seasonal worker laws that everyone thinks apply to farm workers, they apply to all. So they don't have to pay them minimum wage or overtime, they often keep a portion of the pay they do get by deducting shelter and other incidental charges from their pay. The housing provided is generally substandard, as are meals when provided. It's not uncommon to deny pay altogether, or drive them to quit ahead of their contacts to deny pay. I've seen people screamed at and even hit. They put up with it because they're afraid of not getting paid, or getting sent back, if you do quit lots of luck getting anything out of them, they threaten to sue for breach of contact. Or they go over the wall and try to find better pay or working conditions elsewhere. But even after they go illegal, they're doing what they were brought here to do, working.
Don't want to deal with them? Don't bring them over in the first place. But bring them over somebody did. They had benefit of their labor, and in many cases treated them far less than fairly or ethically. I think that deserves some recognition.
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If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
