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Topic: How to Create Enemies< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 12:40 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Per this BBC article, a whopping 74% of Pakistanis view the US as their enemy!  No Al Qaeda propaganda could ever generate this kind of number.  So how did so many Pakistanis come to loathe us?  Read more in the article.

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Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 1:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

From the article:
QUOTE
This represents a genuine conundrum for the Obama administration. There is no question that drone strikes have been a major factor in virtually eliminating the strategic threat posed by core al-Qaeda.

But what started out as a strategic campaign against high-value targets has morphed into something far more tactical.

Drones are increasingly employed not against al-Qaeda operatives plotting attacks against the American homeland, but to target lower-level Taliban forces that continue to attack US forces in Afghanistan.


3 questions come to mind:

1) Are drone strikes legal within US law?
2) within international law?
3) Are they a net plus for US security?

There are no easy answers, but I think "yes" descends into "no" as you go down that list of questions.

Question #3 may have been closer to YES while eliminating the strategic threat, but not so much when it helps recruit the next generation of terrorists.

A 4th question is whether drone strikes are morally defensible, and that is perhaps the most difficult to answer. If you ask the surviving family members of unintended collateral damage, I think the answer will be a resounding NO.


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 Post Number: 3
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 10:57 am)
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A 4th question is whether drone strikes are morally defensible, and that is perhaps the most difficult to answer. If you ask the surviving family members of unintended collateral damage, I think the answer will be a resounding NO.

Actually, all we need is ONE drone attack upon our soil -- and I bet 100% of us Americans will give it a resounding NO!  This is the arrogance in us.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Which is more likely:

1) A drone attack on our soil by a foreign entity would cause the American public to re-think the morality of our own use of drones.

2) There would be widespread public support for military action against whoever did it, regardless of the collateral damage such action might cause.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Give them time. I'm sure many of us are now watched by drones. The next logical step would be to fight crime with them. Scary times.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Feb. 09 2013, 1:17 pm)
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Give them time. I'm sure many of us are now watched by drones. The next logical step would be to fight crime with them. Scary times.

Does the authority of the National Security State make you feel insecure?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Feb. 09 2013, 11:17 am)
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Give them time. I'm sure many of us are now watched by drones. The next logical step would be to fight crime with them. Scary times.

Aerial surveillance aircraft "fight" crime daily, using unmanned aircraft ("drones") wouldn't change that reality.

Oh and as no one uses Pave Lows armed with mini guns in that "fight" why would they suddenly need Reapers? They wouldn't.

Oh and to the OP? The moment the Pakistani people's government doesn't want drones used to fight their insurgent enemies 99% of those strikes disappear.

Frankly if they didn't have nukes the defense of their government wouldn't be something I'd care about. But they do. That makes the situation a lot trickier.

So at the moment we allow ourselves to get played: we defend the verysame Pakistani government by using our drones to attack targets they give us at locations of their enemies. While publicly the Pakistani government does all this "sovereignty" handwringing for their populace's consumption. All to allow some cross border attacks at the anti Afghanistan Taliban to take place plus the aforesaid nuclear weapon holding central government stability. Plus the easiest land route for supplies into Afghanistan: something who's value will wind own as our troop commitment does, thankfully.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 11:15 am)
QUOTE
Which is more likely:

1) A drone attack on our soil by a foreign entity would cause the American public to re-think the morality of our own use of drones.

2) There would be widespread public support for military action against whoever did it, regardless of the collateral damage such action might cause.

#2, of course.  And our arrogance is what's causing our failure to think through the consequences of our actions!  If our own reaction is most likely #2, then would our continued drone use cause:

1)  our allies to re-double their effort to help us get rid of our enemies, or

2)  our allies to become our enemies?

Well, we have a clear answer -- in the BBC article linked above.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Our allies are either with us or against us!!!




















sar-chasm


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 Post Number: 10
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 2:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 11:42 am)
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Our allies are either with us or against us!!!




















sar-chasm

Glad I scrolled down -- I thought you had turned bush!!

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 5:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 09 2013, 1:39 pm)
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2)  our allies to become our enemies?

The sar-chasm in my previous post was indeed a reference to GW Bush, but it was also directed at your response above.

No, our allies won't become our enemies. But our role as the leader of the free world might continue the plummet kicked off by Bush, because our erstwhile friends don't want to follow the path we set.


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 Post Number: 12
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 5:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 2:03 pm)
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No, our allies won't become our enemies.

REALLY??  Like how Iran, our erstwhile ally, doesn't now view us as their enemy -- after decades of shenanigans with their shah?


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 Post Number: 13
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 5:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 09 2013, 4:15 pm)
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(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 2:03 pm)
QUOTE
No, our allies won't become our enemies.

REALLY??  Like how Iran, our erstwhile ally, doesn't now view us as their enemy -- after decades of shenanigans with their shah?

REALLY?? Like you're comparing our relationship with Iran (upon whom we imposed the repressive regime of the Shah)  -- with our relationship to the democracies of Western Europe?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 5:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 2:47 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Feb. 09 2013, 4:15 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 2:03 pm)
QUOTE
No, our allies won't become our enemies.

REALLY??  Like how Iran, our erstwhile ally, doesn't now view us as their enemy -- after decades of shenanigans with their shah?

REALLY?? Like you're comparing our relationship with Iran (upon whom we imposed the repressive regime of the Shah)  -- with our relationship to the democracies of Western Europe?

Oh, so now, "allies" mean only the western democracies of Europe?  Thought we were talking about allies such as Pakistan.

You can be as defensive as you like, Woody, but we are continually creating new enemies.  Turn the table around, and be on the receiving end, and see how you feel.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 09 2013, 6:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have never considered Pakistan to be our ally, despite Musharraf's decision in the wake of 9/11 to provide bases for us against Afghanistan. They take our military aid with one hand while their ISI aids our enemy with the other.

The Shah of Iran was our ally and the oppressor of the Iranian people whom we made our enemy when we helped the Brits depose their democratically elected government in 1953.

There is a huge difference between imposed alliances or arrangements with the likes of Pakistan -- and the kind of ties we have with European democracies. You and I were thinking of two different things.

Your last sentence has no bearing whatsover on any disagreement between us.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 10 2013, 10:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 6:55 pm)
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I have never considered Pakistan to be our ally, despite Musharraf's decision in the wake of 9/11 to provide bases for us against Afghanistan. They take our military aid with one hand while their ISI aids our enemy with the other.

+1

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 10:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 09 2013, 6:55 pm)
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...The Shah of Iran was our ally and the oppressor of the Iranian people whom we made our enemy when we helped the Brits depose their democratically elected government in 1953....

+1.   Maybe the least understood (by we Americans) and most significant factor of our current relationship with Iran.


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