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Topic: Changes Coming to the VAT< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 12:45 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Too tired to go on, Pope Benedict resigns

The spiritual leader of 1.2 billion Catholics, Pope Benedict XVI, surprised the world Monday by saying he will resign at the end of the month "because of advanced age."

CNN Senior Vatican Analyst John Allen said that means the next pope, no matter where he is from, will likely continue in Benedict's conservative tradition -- which has seen the church take a firm line on issues such as abortion, birth control and divorce.


Much more:
http://www.cnn.com/2013....ex.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I thought this was going to be about the value-add tax... :D

1st time in 600 years?  He needs a better explanation than "I'm tired", IMHO.  Conspiracy theories will abound, and while I don't think there's a Hollywood storyline here, doubt will exist unless more details are given.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The explanation has been in every video showing him for the past six months. He's been visibly physically declining. He may be overreacting from Pope John Paul's later condition  but in any case it's his decision to make.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 11 2013, 1:11 pm)
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The explanation has been in every video showing him for the past six months. He's been visibly physically declining. He may be overreacting from Pope John Paul's later condition  but in any case it's his decision to make.

I don't doubt his health is declining, as most people 80+ years old would face similar ailments.  However, I don't necessarily agree that it is his decision to make.  Whether you believe in the religion or not, the appointment to Pope would be the highest calling God could make to one of His followers.  It would seem then that God would one day make the decision to call His servant back to heaven, thus ending his reign as Pope.

In 600 years, no other Pope has resigned due to age (which is why he's resigning), so what's the reason here?  I'm sure the other serving Pope's over the last 600 years faced similar aging/ailments.

I mean this is a big deal, right?  So are the faithful not owed a more detailed explanation?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Does he lose his infallibility the moment he resigns?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Feb. 11 2013, 10:20 am)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 11 2013, 1:11 pm)
QUOTE
The explanation has been in every video showing him for the past six months. He's been visibly physically declining. He may be overreacting from Pope John Paul's later condition  but in any case it's his decision to make.

I don't doubt his health is declining, as most people 80+ years old would face similar ailments.  However, I don't necessarily agree that it is his decision to make.  Whether you believe in the religion or not, the appointment to Pope would be the highest calling God could make to one of His followers.  It would seem then that God would one day make the decision to call His servant back to heaven, thus ending his reign as Pope.

In 600 years, no other Pope has resigned due to age (which is why he's resigning), so what's the reason here?  I'm sure the other serving Pope's over the last 600 years faced similar aging/ailments.

I mean this is a big deal, right?  So are the faithful not owed a more detailed explanation?

"Owed"? Not at all. To quote another Pope: "The Church is not a democracy".

Oh and he's most certainly not resigning due to "age" (as in an arbitrary number on a birth certificate) as he specifically stated it was due to his judging he can no longer fullfill his papal responsibilities and duties. I'm, at least, not going to call the Pope a liar.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 11 2013, 1:30 pm)
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"Owed"? Not at all. To quote another Pope: "The Church is not a democracy".

Oh and he's most certainly not resigning due to "age" (as in an arbitrary number on a birth certificate) as he specifically stated it was due to his judging he can no longer fullfill his papal responsibilities and duties. I'm, at least, not going to call the Pope a liar.

By "age" I meant "aging", as in the ailments of mind, body, and soul that affect every other person in his age range.  Which again, begs the question what makes him any different from any other "aging" Pope over the last 600 years?  

There's no need to call the Pope a liar, and neither am I.  One can be less than forthright with all the pertinent information, without lying.

I do think he "owes" the faithful an explanation, even if it isn't "required" of him to do so.  His move is clearly an aberration in the normal service of a sitting Pope, and begs for more details.  So yeah, it's his choice as to whether or not he wants to reveal any more details than he already has, but then the Church shouldn't be surprised at the particular "theories" that will pop up in the wake of this move.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As I wrote he may be over reacting from his experience up close of the declining Pope John Paul with his resignation.

As to other "conspiracy" theories: what yah got?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

My theory... he's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 1:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I can appreciate his observation of his predecessor, but I guess breaking a 600-year tradition strikes me as a bit odd.  That's all.

As for conspiracies - I got none.  I don't really like to play the guessing game, and prefer hard facts (which is why, personally, I'd like a more detailed explanation).  I'm only recognizing the fact that the abuse scandals stirred up a good deal of controversy, not so long ago, and this seemingly abrupt resignation is surely going to drum up personal theories as to the reasoning behind his move.  Perhaps, it won't, and his word will be taken at face value.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 2:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Vatican has been floating trial balloons on this for at least a year.  He is a tough guy and I don't believe that he would do this if it weren't absolutely necessary.  I also agree with HSF that the end of John Paul II's tenure casts a long shadow over this decision. They may never reveal the full extent of his impairment toward the end, but it's a situation the leadership wishes to avoid, and I don't blame them at all.
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 11 2013, 1:51 pm)
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My theory... he's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

That was actually one of my initial thoughts, or perhaps a fast-acting cancer.

But why not just admit that?  It's not so bad, is it?  Lots of people are faced with similar ailments at the end of their lives.  Would it have been so awful just to say, "Due to advancing (insert ailment here), Pope Benedict has made a rare move and will be resigning from his position, as he feels transition to a new Pope is the right move for the Church", or something to that effect?


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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 11 2013, 1:51 pm)
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My theory... he's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

Many people seem convinced that he has Parkinson's, which is quite plausible.  I wouldn't rule out Alzheimer's, either.
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(big_load @ Feb. 11 2013, 2:02 pm)
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They may never reveal the full extent of his impairment toward the end, but it's a situation the leadership wishes to avoid, and I don't blame them at all.

Sorry to flood the posts here, but I'm seeing these defenses of the decision and I just don't understand the "why" behind it.

Why is this a situation to be avoided?  Is it because the Church wants him to appear to be invincible, as if being Pope raises a person's status to that level?  I mean, Pope John Paul II, went through a decline in health in front of he world, so what's to hide here?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The President of Trinity Washington University was interviewed on WTOP in DC this morning.  Her thought was that perhaps this would be a real legacy moment in establishing a precident whereby an ailing and aging Pope wouldn't feel the need to essentially waste away in public while the Church has no true leader.

Regardless, I wish him peace and health and pray the Congress of Cardinals will choose wisely, especially as they consider where the world wide church looks like today.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 2:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Feb. 11 2013, 2:04 pm)
QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 11 2013, 1:51 pm)
QUOTE
My theory... he's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

That was actually one of my initial thoughts, or perhaps a fast-acting cancer.

But why not just admit that?  It's not so bad, is it?  Lots of people are faced with similar ailments at the end of their lives.  Would it have been so awful just to say, "Due to advancing (insert ailment here), Pope Benedict has made a rare move and will be resigning from his position, as he feels transition to a new Pope is the right move for the Church", or something to that effect?

It's not so easy to tell the flock that their Infallible is suffering from (insert ailment here).

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 2:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 11 2013, 11:26 am)
QUOTE

(EastieTrekker @ Feb. 11 2013, 2:04 pm)
QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 11 2013, 1:51 pm)
QUOTE
My theory... he's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

That was actually one of my initial thoughts, or perhaps a fast-acting cancer.

But why not just admit that?  It's not so bad, is it?  Lots of people are faced with similar ailments at the end of their lives.  Would it have been so awful just to say, "Due to advancing (insert ailment here), Pope Benedict has made a rare move and will be resigning from his position, as he feels transition to a new Pope is the right move for the Church", or something to that effect?

It's not so easy to tell the flock that their Infallible is suffering from (insert ailment here).

Not sure if you are using the term in jest or not... but the Catholic Church does not teach that any man is infallible (eg perfect knowledge of science, history, math, etc.).  The doctrine is actually much more limited.

As a Catholic, is my faith in Jesus Christ dependent on this doctrine of papal infallibility?  No.

As for the pope's resignation... my own guess is that after having firsthand witness of just how impossible it was for an ailing John Paul II  to guide the church -- the 85 years old Benedict decided to hand off the reins sooner rather than later.  Just my guess, of course.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 3:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Feb. 11 2013, 2:08 pm)
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(big_load @ Feb. 11 2013, 2:02 pm)
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They may never reveal the full extent of his impairment toward the end, but it's a situation the leadership wishes to avoid, and I don't blame them at all.

Sorry to flood the posts here, but I'm seeing these defenses of the decision and I just don't understand the "why" behind it.

Why is this a situation to be avoided?  Is it because the Church wants him to appear to be invincible, as if being Pope raises a person's status to that level?  I mean, Pope John Paul II, went through a decline in health in front of he world, so what's to hide here?

What I assume they wish to avoid is having too many important decisions being made at comparatively low levels without sufficient oversight.

It isn't about how the pope appears to the world, it's about who is really doing the work and who is ensuring that it is done to the pope's satisfaction.   Delegation is one thing, delegation with limited oversight is something else.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 3:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Feb. 11 2013, 12:26 pm)
QUOTE

(EastieTrekker @ Feb. 11 2013, 2:08 pm)
QUOTE

(big_load @ Feb. 11 2013, 2:02 pm)
QUOTE
They may never reveal the full extent of his impairment toward the end, but it's a situation the leadership wishes to avoid, and I don't blame them at all.

Sorry to flood the posts here, but I'm seeing these defenses of the decision and I just don't understand the "why" behind it.

Why is this a situation to be avoided?  Is it because the Church wants him to appear to be invincible, as if being Pope raises a person's status to that level?  I mean, Pope John Paul II, went through a decline in health in front of he world, so what's to hide here?

What I assume they wish to avoid is having too many important decisions being made at comparatively low levels without sufficient oversight.

It isn't about how the pope appears to the world, it's about who is really doing the work and who is ensuring that it is done to the pope's satisfaction.   Delegation is one thing, delegation with limited oversight is something else.

Yes: ""Strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me," said Benedict, 85, according to the Vatican."

As he doesn't actually arm wrestle nonbelievers I'm quite certain it's his "strength of mind" that he's making this  decision on. Whatever the specific underlying neuralgic pathology modern medicine could keep him alive far, far longer than he could responsibly execute his papal duties within the context of his questioning his "strength of mind".
As noted physical frailty can limit activity but not impair oversight of the Church, mental frailty would do just that: apparently, given his words, beyond the limits of that the Pope judges is a responsible level.

I'm willing to take the man at his word.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 11 2013, 11:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This article, dated circa 2010, seems to think that there are some considerable problems, though they don’t – as most don’t – see “mother church” changing in response to them. The sex abuse scandals have caused some decline in members of the church, though this decline is partially masked in the U.S. because a large portion of incoming immigrants are Catholic themselves. In fact, all Protestant churches are seeing declines, while the number of “irreligious”/non-affiliated has risen from 7% in 1972 to 18% in 2010, acc. to Pew.
" [PDF]Nones on the Rise – Pew Research"

QUOTE
In the U.S., all the major denominations have seen their numbers decline in recent years, but the Catholic Church has taken the biggest hit. Since the 1960s, four American-born Catholics have left the church for every one who has converted, according to a 2009 Pew study. In 2008 alone, Catholic membership declined by 400,000. More than 1,000 parishes have closed since 1995, and the number of priests has fallen from about 49,000 to 40,000 during that same period. Some 3,400 Catholic parishes in the U.S. now lack a resident priest. “Catholicism is in decline across America,” says sociologist David Carlin.

http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis

A large contingent of more liberal Catholics, the article says (and it’s not the only one), are moving toward more liberal Catholic churches which are not “Rome-related”. But, though I suspect that the combination of a number of difficult problems and Ratzinger’s declining health adequately explain his resignation, there may have been some concern for the overall state of the church under him as his health declined, and not all of those concerns are unrelated to internal politics, from what I can see.

OTOH, the conservatives in the Roman Catholic church apparently aren’t, as Keller says, all concerned about declining membership, and the increasingly “out of touch” position of the church WRT the rest of the world. Bill Keller summed it all up best in his blog, where he states that Ratzinger, known as “God’s Rottweiler”,

QUOTE
…will be described as a diehard traditionalist, a reactionary in a time of revolutionary yearnings. He gave no encouragement to the nuns who sought to break through the stained-glass ceiling, to gays who wanted the church to come to terms with their humanity, to Catholics who questioned the Vatican orthodoxy on contraception, divorce, priestly celibacy, the ordination of women and, of course, abortion. His record in handling the great disgrace of the pedophile priests is mixed at best. To his credit, he turned the juridical machinery of the church against predator priests and tried to speed it up a little. But he recoiled from holding bishops accountable for their passive oversight and active cover-ups. Scornful of the press (which, in large part, found him remote and hard) he never really engaged the public storm of outrage and dismay. Probably his low point in honoring his responsibility to “govern the bark of Saint Peter” was his refusal to address the case of an abusive priest who was allowed to return to service in Munich when Benedict – then Joseph Ratzinger – was the city’s archbishop.

Benedict has been a polarizing pope, but he was not an outlier. On the contrary, he was the deliberate choice of a church that has, ever since the 1960’s, been retreating from the Second Vatican Council promise of reform and modernization, deeper into the comfort of orthodoxy. He was just what the church hierarchy wanted, though I suspect the Vatican missed his predecessor’s Polish bonhomie.


I believe he nailed the situation in this paragraph. I believe the analogy to the GOP is particularly apt.
QUOTE
Benedict ascended because the Church – rather like the Republican Party – has gradually marginalized its moderates. And while we are now hearing Republican voices call for softening the rhetoric (if not moderating the agenda), the Catholic Church has heard no such wake-up call. The Vatican has an even lower tolerance for dissent than the Republican Party – and is more willing to accept a smaller, coherently conservative base. Benedict himself said before his elevation to the papacy that a smaller Church might be a better Church.


And, says Keller, one shouldn’t expect that the Roman Catholic church will change, no more than you can expect the GOP to change. Those who remain in the church know what to expect, I believe. Apparently, the conservatives currently in charge believe that loss of membership could be a good thing – the church will be smaller, but much more fervent and dedicated to the stricter conservative take on the church's position. There's some talk, I understand, of an eventual return to Latin masses. (Ratzinger appointed a large number of the Cardinals who’ll elect the next Pope, so not much possibility of change there.)

Keller’s parting shot?
QUOTE
This is not a bastion of enlightenment. Don’t expect a Vatican Spring.

http://keller.blogs.nytimes.com/2013....opes-up
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 12 2013, 10:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Perhaps the Man Himself is making His opinion known.

picture here


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(ol-zeke @ Feb. 12 2013, 10:46 pm)
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Perhaps the Man Himself is making His opinion known.

picture here

LOL!

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 8:47 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

He wants to get laid before he dies...leave him alone

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(BillBab @ Feb. 13 2013, 6:47 am)
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He wants to get laid before he dies...leave him alone

:laugh:

That was funny.


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(BillBab @ Feb. 13 2013, 8:47 am)
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He wants to get laid before he dies...leave him alone

That was a real (Rat)zinger!!  :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 11:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Boo!!! Hiss!!!! :D

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