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Topic: Universal Background Check, Requires National Gun Registry< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 10:15 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Universal Background Check is a big step in the right direction. It is a BIG DEAL - more than an assault rifle ban or limited capacity magazines.

In order to enforce a Universal Background Check, ALL guns owed by citizens must be registered. Otherwise, there is no way for law enforcement to prove that for example, that a father left his guns to his son upon his death - an illegal transfer without the proposed Universal Background Check. Without a National Gun Registry, it is impossible to prove that a gun that is sold to a neighbor WITHOUT a Background Check, was transferred to the neighbor after the enactment of the Universal Background Check enactment.

So the National Gun Registry is a bureaucratic necessity. And, VERY IMPORTANTLY, having a complete list of gun owners and the guns that they own opens the door for future gun control measures.  

Also important is the subtle shift in expectations that the Universal Background Check is a "permission to purchase a gun" for ANY REASON. So, limiting a person from purchasing more than one gun a month, for example, is easily enforced.

It is also recognized that a LOT of new Federal employees will have to be hired and trained to handle the huge number of private gun sales, inheritances, gifts, etc. But once this system is in place, it can be easily expanded to handle other social problems such as excessive alcohol purchases. Or the Background Check, with a hefty fee paid by the purchaser, can be expanded to cover the purchase of ammunition.

So the Universal Background Check is a BIG DEAL and a giant stride toward a gun free America.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 10:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

UBC's aren't preventing youths on psychotropic drugs and the mentally impaired amongst us from purchasing guns. But why stop there. How about UBC's for the first and fourth as well?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 12:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 13 2013, 10:22 am)
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UBC's aren't preventing youths on psychotropic drugs and the mentally impaired amongst us from purchasing guns. But why stop there. How about UBC's for the first and fourth as well?

So what? The vast majority of gun crimes aren't committed by such people.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 2:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Feb. 13 2013, 10:15 am)
QUOTE
The Universal Background Check is a big step in the right direction. It is a BIG DEAL - more than an assault rifle ban or limited capacity magazines.

In order to enforce a Universal Background Check, ALL guns owed by citizens must be registered. Otherwise, there is no way for law enforcement to prove that for example, that a father left his guns to his son upon his death - an illegal transfer without the proposed Universal Background Check. Without a National Gun Registry, it is impossible to prove that a gun that is sold to a neighbor WITHOUT a Background Check, was transferred to the neighbor after the enactment of the Universal Background Check enactment.

So the National Gun Registry is a bureaucratic necessity. And, VERY IMPORTANTLY, having a complete list of gun owners and the guns that they own opens the door for future gun control measures.  

Also important is the subtle shift in expectations that the Universal Background Check is a "permission to purchase a gun" for ANY REASON. So, limiting a person from purchasing more than one gun a month, for example, is easily enforced.

It is also recognized that a LOT of new Federal employees will have to be hired and trained to handle the huge number of private gun sales, inheritances, gifts, etc. But once this system is in place, it can be easily expanded to handle other social problems such as excessive alcohol purchases. Or the Background Check, with a hefty fee paid by the purchaser, can be expanded to cover the purchase of ammunition.

So the Universal Background Check is a BIG DEAL and a giant stride toward a gun free America.

More like a giant stride towards a Less Free America

But thanks for pointing out the real aim of the background check idiots.

Back door registration to make confiscation so much easier

If they simply want to give law abiding citizens a way to be certain they are selling to a "good person" then there are many ways to do that without registration of the weapons

Even slow Joe has said none of the current laws being proposed will stop mass murders


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 2:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 13 2013, 12:10 pm)
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(Montecresto @ Feb. 13 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
UBC's aren't preventing youths on psychotropic drugs and the mentally impaired amongst us from purchasing guns. But why stop there. How about UBC's for the first and fourth as well?

So what? The vast majority of gun crimes aren't committed by such people.

Nope...the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by criminals....who will never be subject to a UBC

If you could just listen to yourself you might have a clue :laugh:


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 2:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The guberment has your name and social security number.  If the guberment don't want you buy a gun it can just take all your money and credit lines from you over the internet in less than 10 seconds.  The guberment don't need a gun registry to disarm you.

And the phone company has even more power over you.  So there.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 4:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Feb. 13 2013, 2:22 pm)
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(HighGravity @ Feb. 13 2013, 12:10 pm)
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(Montecresto @ Feb. 13 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
UBC's aren't preventing youths on psychotropic drugs and the mentally impaired amongst us from purchasing guns. But why stop there. How about UBC's for the first and fourth as well?

So what? The vast majority of gun crimes aren't committed by such people.

Nope...the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by criminals....who will never be subject to a UBC

And guess what "tool" those criminals are using? You don't really spend a lot of time thinking before you pound the keyboard do you?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 4:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, very few are using AR-15’s, but don't let facts get in the way.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So you're under the impression the background check only would only apply to those purchasing AR-15's, or did you not really think that response through?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No, I thought that banning certain weapons was a counterpart to gun control legislation, and your “tool” reference enticed me to respond. The push to ban AR-15's is the perfect example of gun control legislation devoid of thought. That is, it is not possible to make a significant impact on violence by banning a “tool” that is so rarely used in acts of violence. That parallels the idea that making guns more difficult to obtain legally will somehow curtail violence. Again, it cannot have a significant impact, because criminals simply do not obey the law (by definition).
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Universal - covering everyone!

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind seeing a national ID card.  Everyone gets one.  I see a card that starts with just birth certificate type info. on it, then followed (as appropriate) with driver license info, social security info, election registration, gun ownership authorization info, medicare info, etc., etc. -- until the last electronic entry comprising death certificate info.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ref. the argument "Only the non-criminals will obey the laws; the criminals will ignore them".

I understand some of the arguments against stricter gun-contol.  But not this one.

Why bother having ANY laws of any kind since criminals will ignore them?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 13 2013, 5:34 pm)
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Universal - covering everyone!

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind seeing a national ID card.  Everyone gets one.  I see a card that starts with just birth certificate type info. on it, then followed (as appropriate) with driver license info, social security info, election registration, gun ownership authorization info, medicare info, etc., etc. -- until the last electronic entry comprising death certificate info.

I’m OK with a smart universal ID card, that could also include a firearms disability information.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I wonder how many years would pass before all of those clips and high capacity weapons failed to meet the needs.  If we had enacted serious capacity controls after the Right's beloved Ronnie was shot, we would already have a safer country.  Nearly 3 decades have passed, and yet we have effectively done nothing.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hinkley used a six shot 22 caliber revolver and he missed with all six: ironically one bounced off the armored side of his limo and struck the President a grazing blow on the bounce.

Capacity and Reagan? Restricting six shot 22 revolvers? Where's that in the current legislation? Nowhere.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 5:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Feb. 13 2013, 5:41 pm)
QUOTE
Ref. the argument "Only the non-criminals will obey the laws; the criminals will ignore them".

I understand some of the arguments against stricter gun-contol.  But not this one.

Why bother having ANY laws of any kind since criminals will ignore them?

It is a matter of balancing individual rights and the common good. Any proposal that limits individual rights can only be justified by it’s benefit for the common good. If the proposal will not deter criminals from getting guns, then it cannot justify the limits it imposes on individual rights.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 6:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Feb. 13 2013, 5:25 pm)
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No, I thought that banning certain weapons was a counterpart to gun control legislation, and your “tool” reference enticed me to respond. The push to ban AR-15's is the perfect example of gun control legislation devoid of thought. That is, it is not possible to make a significant impact on violence by banning a “tool” that is so rarely used in acts of violence. That parallels the idea that making guns more difficult to obtain legally will somehow curtail violence. Again, it cannot have a significant impact, because criminals simply do not obey the law (by definition).

The fact that it's a completely useless tool except for the act of killing lots of people quickly, is the reason it makes sense to ban that weapon.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 6:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Samurai swords are fairly useless too…Typewriters....why stop at guns?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 6:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The right of self defense is a quite overwhelmingly acknowledged in the United States.

How one chooses to provide that security is mostly left to the individual. And I tend to agree with that. My kitchen remodel included a full service fire suppression system; some would judge it excessive but I would be very uncomfortable with government regulations barring me from taking those precautions I judged prudent. I gather there's a lot of former service members that gained a lot of familiarity with the AR-15 system of firearms and when combined with moderate prices make that choice for their home, family and personal security. Absent a compelling government interest they should be left to it. And that government interest should be founded on good solid data and not aesthetics. I don't judge a lot of, say, Sen. Feinstein's bill being so founded.

Further beyond my skepticism of a lot of the currently considered specifics efficacy there's my certain, admittedly totally cynical, belief that per their usual, legislators will take this one swipe, declare victory at the photo OP and then never actually bother to grasp the nettle of the much more difficult (or expensive) aspects of the challenge of violence in America.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 6:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Because typewriters aren't used to kill large amounts of people in movie theaters and elementary schools. You're not really that dense are you?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 6:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I’m willing to bet that typewriters have killed more people than AR-15’s.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 6:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Logic isn't your strong suit huh?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 6:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Most criminals aren't buying their guns at Dick's Sporting Goods. A background check isn't going to make a difference to the hood on the street.  He'll still get a gun and commit crimes.

It might help keep the crazy people, DWI's and wife beaters from getting guns though.

But like our 50 year failed war on drugs, banning guns won't keep criminals from having guns.

Get back to me when banned drugs are cleaned out of our jails.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 8:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

nogods said
QUOTE

Most criminals aren't buying their guns at Dick's Sporting Goods. A background check isn't
going to make a difference to the hood on the street.  He'll still get a gun and commit
crimes.


Thats like saying if a piece of legislation isn't perfect and doesn't totally solve a problem
then there is no need to pass. Under that criteria we probably wouldn't have any lawas. But
beyond that criminals don't get their from guns from Gun shows from private individuals
who don't have to do a background check and there hasn't been legislation to stop that
loophole?

So it appears you're against background checks which means you would agree with Wayne
LaPierre and the rest of the NRA leadership but disagree with 91% of the American people who
believe in background checks and 74% of NRA members who believe in background checks. That's
right, The NRA leadership is so far out that they disagree with their own membership on
background checks.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 8:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 13 2013, 5:34 pm)
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Universal - covering everyone!

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind seeing a national ID card.  Everyone gets one.  I see a card that starts with just birth certificate type info. on it, then followed (as appropriate) with driver license info, social security info, election registration, gun ownership authorization info, medicare info, etc., etc. -- until the last electronic entry comprising death certificate info.

Except the bill of rights doesn't come by authorisation. They are given rights, not to be infringed. Citizenship is the authorisation. Committing a crime with a gun, being on psychotropic drugs, mental illness are things that most would agree should forfeit that right.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 8:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 13 2013, 5:28 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Feb. 13 2013, 5:34 pm)
QUOTE
Universal - covering everyone!

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind seeing a national ID card.  Everyone gets one.  I see a card that starts with just birth certificate type info. on it, then followed (as appropriate) with driver license info, social security info, election registration, gun ownership authorization info, medicare info, etc., etc. -- until the last electronic entry comprising death certificate info.

Except the bill of rights doesn't come by authorisation. They are given rights, not to be infringed. Citizenship is the authorisation. Committing a crime with a gun, being on psychotropic drugs, mental illness are things that most would agree should forfeit that right.

I don't see a problem -- be it rights or privileges.  An example of each:

Right now, anyone born here gets a birth certificate.  No different really, if they were to get a smart card instead.

Diving is not a right, but a privilege (which we earn by passing oral and written tests).  Right now, we get a separate driver license.  No different -- except more convenient -- if DMV merely updates our universal card to reflect our driving privilege -- rather than issuing separate cards.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 8:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sure, but driving is only restricted when a person commits a crime when driving. All persons driving privileges aren't restricted because one person drives under the influence and kills people.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 8:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 13 2013, 5:53 pm)
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Sure, but driving is only restricted when a person commits a crime when driving. All persons driving privileges aren't restricted because one person drives under the influence and kills people.

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other...

All I was saying is that there are great benefits to issuing one card to every person in the country.   Whether or not you are a citizen, or can drive, or can own a gun, etc. can all be reflected in YOUR card.  Obviously, the info won't be just limited to "yes or no" -- but can reflect all different levels of rights and privileges granted to the holder.

The card is one thing.  All the different rules to determine rights and privileges can continue as before -- or be amended -- completely separate from the concept of universal card.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 9:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ok, that would have to be expounded upon, but just saying that all the wonders and conveniences that come with technology, potential for abuse must be constantly monitored.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 13 2013, 9:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 13 2013, 6:04 pm)
QUOTE
Ok, that would have to be expounded upon, but just saying that all the wonders and conveniences that come with technology, potential for abuse must be constantly monitored.

Absolutely.  I am sure folks who hate the idea of "one card" will point to abuses... and yet, our current system is full of holes and abuses already.  We don't need a perfect system -- we just need one that's better than what we currently have.


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