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Topic: Straight Marriage is the Real Issue< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 7:00 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Very interesting article that points out a much more serious sociological trend in America even while the Supreme Court toys with a side issue that affects a tiny minority and has little effect on the national economy or our future as a world power.  Take the time to read if you have any interest at all in these subjects.


But while straight young Americans support marriage for gays, increasingly they opt against marriage for themselves. Nearly half of American children, 48%, are now born to unmarried women. Among women without college degrees, and of all races, unwed motherhood has become the norm.

This is the crisis of the American family. Whether same-sex marriage proceeds fast or slow, whether it extends to all 50 states or stops with the current nine plus the District of Columbia, the crisis will be the same.


http://www.cnn.com/2013....t=hp_c1


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 7:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:00 pm)
QUOTE
But while straight young Americans support marriage for gays, increasingly they opt against marriage for themselves.

Well that is just evil of them -- to be so homophobic that they wish for gays what they themselves are so keen to avoid!  ???

Being blissfully single, I wouldn't wish the evil institution of marriage on my worst enemy.   :cool:


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 7:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

But, I am guessing, that you are also not a single parent, and that you have no children.

So your genes will not be a factor in the future success, or failure, of the human species.

I have always found participating rather than simply spectating to be a more challenging and rewarding posture.  YMMV


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 7:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 7:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:17 pm)
QUOTE
But, I am guessing, that you are also not a single parent, and that you have no children.

So your genes will not be a factor in the future success, or failure, of the human species.

I have always found participating rather than simply spectating to be a more challenging and rewarding posture.  YMMV

I will not burst your lame attempt at consoling yourself about the miserable life you chose...

Kidding!!!  I'm sure you realize my post above was completely tongue in cheek, right?

But for me, no, I have no wife, no kids, no pets -- and every plant is within range of the auto sprinkler system.   I am home a lot -- but the few months that I travel or the few days that I hike -- I like the idea of being able to just lock the front door and go.  Strictly (and obviously) a YMMV thing.

But I too make contributions to society.  Did you read the thread I posted oh maybe five years ago -- bragging about my 'son' -- a poor kid in a poor country whom I supported through college -- and how that kid -- subsequently and completely on his own -- managed to get his masters -- and then a FULL scholarship and a PhD from Cambridge?  So yeah, while it ain't full parenting, I too know the joy of helping a smart little urchin morph into a scientist now working at one of UK's preeminent labs!  Not my genes?  I couldn't care less -- I am just as happy and giddy!  :)


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 7:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.

Traditions like coverture and chattel marriage?

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 8:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 27 2013, 6:51 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.

Traditions like coverture and chattel marriage?

Exactly Tom!

How did you read my mind?

Of course that is what I was referencing!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 8:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 27 2013, 7:51 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.

Traditions like coverture and chattel marriage?

Hmmm, I am actually agreeing with you TT on this; marriage is the biggest sham out there unless your part of the social parasites making money off it like the judicial system, lawyers , churches, travel industry, catering business just to name a few. They eat that fantasy up!

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 9:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:51 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.

Traditions like coverture and chattel marriage?

Not sure what the exact word is... but just something about picking the worst examples of a given institution practiced by billions over millennia -- to justify its consignment to the dustbin of history (my words, of course, but I think it conveys the intention here?).

As for our  post modern world -- I see a big part of it a product of three consecutive generations of prosperity that cultivates a "know it all" society that is egotistical and dismissive.  On the one hand, there seems almost a race to be the most inclusive.  And yet, at the same time, there is also near-instant disdain -- "zero tolerance" -- toward those deemed to have fallen.

Yeah, an inclusiveness that is more a show of how progressive we think we are.  But cross us, and you may just discover how little patience, compassion, forgiveness we are willing to impart.

Bottom line:  ours is now society of three spoiled generations -- and the effects show -- for better and for worse.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 27 2013, 9:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.

A marriage is what you and your spouse want it to be.

If you feel that your marriage has been stripped of something, perhaps you and your spouse should deal with it between the two of you.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 11:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 27 2013, 6:01 pm)
QUOTE

(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:51 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.

Traditions like coverture and chattel marriage?

Not sure what the exact word is... but just something about picking the worst examples of a given institution practiced by billions over millennia -- to justify its consignment to the dustbin of history (my words, of course, but I think it conveys the intention here?).

If that's what you think I'm saying, you're reading it wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

My point is that when people talk about "traditional marriage" in a nostalgic sense, they're carefully editing out oppressive practices that for millennia, across a wide spread of cultures, were not merely incidental but actually a core element of the institution.

I think if one looks clearly at what "traditional marriage" actually entailed over most of its existence, one is hard pressed to deny that it has evolved for the better.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 11:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 28 2013, 8:05 am)
QUOTE
If that's what you think I'm saying, you're reading it wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

My point is that when people talk about "traditional marriage" in a nostalgic sense, they're carefully editing out oppressive practices that for millennia, across a wide spread of cultures, were not merely incidental but actually a core element of the institution.

I think if one looks clearly at what "traditional marriage" actually entailed over most of its existence, one is hard pressed to deny that it has evolved for the better.

Stop the idiotic jabs, Tom.  You wrote, in the entirety of your initial post:

QUOTE
Traditions like coverture and chattel marriage?

So yeah, people do read a lot of negativism from that -- not just me.

As for marriage evolving for the better -- I disagree (subjective).  In our society, at least, going back to the 'spoiled generations' -- the overwhelming majority of marriages fall apart.  Sure, some rightly should end -- as in the cases of spousal abuse as an example -- but too many are simply people making "lifetime vows" -- then deciding they'd rather move on -- without their partners...  Not blaming marriage, which is simply a contract -- but the state of people (us, collectively) today.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 11:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 28 2013, 9:17 am)
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So yeah, people do read a lot of negativism from that -- not just me.

As for marriage evolving for the better -- I disagree (subjective).  In our society, at least, going back to the 'spoiled generations' -- the overwhelming majority of marriages fall apart.  Sure, some rightly should end -- as in the cases of spousal abuse as an example -- but too many are simply people making "lifetime vows" -- then deciding for all sorts of reasons to "cut their loses" and move on...  Not blaming marriage, but the state of people (us, collectively) today.

No negativism there. :p

Seriously, you guys seem to be talking past each other, both making points about entirely different aspects of the same thing.

Which, of course, you're free to do.  Can't say I've never done the same.  Just, it might help if someone realizes it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 11:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Mar. 27 2013, 7:00 pm)
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But while straight young Americans support marriage for gays, increasingly they opt against marriage for themselves.

I think that's a bit misleading without context, though.  Young adults in the 18-30yo age bracket, who I assume are the source of that particular statistic may be answering "no, I'm not married", or "no, I don't have immediate/any plans for marriage", are answering that way for a reason, not just purely a change in "tastes" for marriage.

I think most of this generation have just significantly delayed marriage as a priority in their lives.  Why?  Is it our natural tendency to be amoral? Nope.  We are going to college in record numbers, focusing on studies instead.  We are either just entering the job market in less than ideal conditions, have already entered within the past 5yrs with little success relative to the expectations that were built up, or were recently laid off in the past 5yrs at a critical point in our careers (the foundation years).

So why some of that trend may be driven by personal preference, I don't think Millennials dislike the idea of commitment/marriage, we have just been presented with a different set of challenges in our formative adult years that have led to marriages occurring later in our lives.

I'm a perfect example, been engaged for 5yrs now!!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 11:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 28 2013, 8:21 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 28 2013, 9:17 am)
QUOTE
So yeah, people do read a lot of negativism from that -- not just me.

As for marriage evolving for the better -- I disagree (subjective).  In our society, at least, going back to the 'spoiled generations' -- the overwhelming majority of marriages fall apart.  Sure, some rightly should end -- as in the cases of spousal abuse as an example -- but too many are simply people making "lifetime vows" -- then deciding for all sorts of reasons to "cut their loses" and move on...  Not blaming marriage, but the state of people (us, collectively) today.

No negativism there. :p

Seriously, you guys seem to be talking past each other, both making points about entirely different aspects of the same thing.

Which, of course, you're free to do.  Can't say I've never done the same.  Just, it might help if someone realizes it.

DOH, Goblue!  TPA is  Talking Past All.  Wanna tell us something we don't already know?  :p


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 11:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 28 2013, 8:21 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 28 2013, 9:17 am)
QUOTE
So yeah, people do read a lot of negativism from that -- not just me.

As for marriage evolving for the better -- I disagree (subjective).  In our society, at least, going back to the 'spoiled generations' -- the overwhelming majority of marriages fall apart.  Sure, some rightly should end -- as in the cases of spousal abuse as an example -- but too many are simply people making "lifetime vows" -- then deciding for all sorts of reasons to "cut their loses" and move on...  Not blaming marriage, but the state of people (us, collectively) today.

No negativism there. :p

Seriously, you guys seem to be talking past each other, both making points about entirely different aspects of the same thing.

Which, of course, you're free to do.  Can't say I've never done the same.  Just, it might help if someone realizes it.

Yup. And I figured it was at least worth an attempt at clarification (to no avail), but beyond that I don't have any plans to engage in yet another talking-two-different-languages back-and-forth with Ben.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 11:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 28 2013, 8:46 am)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Mar. 28 2013, 8:21 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 28 2013, 9:17 am)
QUOTE
So yeah, people do read a lot of negativism from that -- not just me.

As for marriage evolving for the better -- I disagree (subjective).  In our society, at least, going back to the 'spoiled generations' -- the overwhelming majority of marriages fall apart.  Sure, some rightly should end -- as in the cases of spousal abuse as an example -- but too many are simply people making "lifetime vows" -- then deciding for all sorts of reasons to "cut their loses" and move on...  Not blaming marriage, but the state of people (us, collectively) today.

No negativism there. :p

Seriously, you guys seem to be talking past each other, both making points about entirely different aspects of the same thing.

Which, of course, you're free to do.  Can't say I've never done the same.  Just, it might help if someone realizes it.

Yup. And I figured it was at least worth an attempt at clarification (to no avail), but beyond that I don't have any plans to engage in yet another talking-two-different-languages back-and-forth with Ben.

Tom -- GoBlue was referring to you as well -- but you are too egotistical and dense to pick that up -- as usual.

In any case, you promise, Tom?  Because I WILL hold you to your word.  I have no need for people who constantly talk down to others -- and obviously not just to me!  So, Tom, good bye and good riddance!!  :)


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 12:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 5:00 pm)
QUOTE

(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 27 2013, 6:51 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Mar. 27 2013, 4:41 pm)
QUOTE
Marriage is increasingly becoming a meaningless social construct in our post modern world.

The word marriage is being emptied of its historical meaning, traditions and significance. It is being co-opted to lend legitimacy and gravitas to something it never was.

Traditions like coverture and chattel marriage?

Exactly Tom!

How did you read my mind?

Of course that is what I was referencing!

Okay, you tell me: when you talk about the "historical meaning, traditions and significance" of marriage, what precisely are you referring to?

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 12:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Having been happily married for 34 years and having raised four children, I think I can speak with some limited experience on marriage.  Sad as it is, I'm afraid that the institution of marriage is a failed institution that has outlived it's time. Any social institution that has a failure rate of over 50% is, IMO, hardly viable.  The problem, of course, is that society has not yet come up with an acceptable solution to raising children successfully in a single parent situation.  I know I may get some angry responses from single parents about how successful they have been at raising great kids by themselves and I won't argue with them as indeed it happens.  They have my admiration and respect.  But statistically and from my own observation, it's not the norm much less easy. But then, I guess, raising kids under any circumstances isn't easy.

As for gay marriage, I can't for the life of me understand why it's such an issue.  What possible business is it of mine if two people in love, regardless of who they are, want to get married? Not my life, not my business.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 12:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Mar. 27 2013, 8:17 pm)
QUOTE

A marriage is what you and your spouse want it to be.

Great definition of the post modern culturally emptied idea of marriage hbfa!

Marriage is whatever I (we) say it is!

The above is not meant to reflect on your marriage at all as I don't know you or your wife.

TTom,

A man and a woman joined together in a covenant for the purposes of raising a family, agreeing to be faithful to each other for life.

Marriage is the foundational unit of human organization. It pretty much transcends all cultural and religious lines. Historical exceptions are just that, exceptions to the rule.  

All other human institutions suffer when this foundational institution is weak IMHO.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 12:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"marriage" is still dependant on the relatively recent constructs of government and organized religion. Both relative newcomers to human existence. Then there's that the earliest concepts of "marriage" revolved around property issues, as were most aspects of the Hammurabic Code: legal contractual arrangements to regularize property management.

People have lived in various ways for endless millenia beyond that time horizon.
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 28 2013, 11:48 am)
QUOTE
"marriage" is still dependant on the relatively recent constructs of government and organized religion. Both relative newcomers to human existence. Then there's that the earliest cooncepts of "marriage" revolved around property issues, as were most aspects of the Hammurabic Code: legal contractual arrangements to regularize property management.

People have lived in various ways for endless millenia beyond that time horizon.

Appealing to a history we have no actual record of is a non sequitur.

Our history, our traditions are based on the western world concepts of marriage.

The property based concept of marriage was pretty much dealt death blows by the Romantic period and Protestantism in general.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 1:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Is there any factual knowledge about the mating patterns for Neanderthal and Cro Magnon tribes??  Did they mate for life, or just long enough to have a child??

What have been the dominant patterns for mating among hunter/gatherer aborigines that have been observed in the 20th Century??

Might be an interesting area to do some additional reading.

Perhaps our understanding of "traditional marriage" is just an abberation that arose as the industrial revolution changed the world economy, and the long term traditions of mating are really much more like the ones being worked out by young people today??

Just wondering, as I read all the pontificating by media experts.

We have been married 50 years this June, and are still figuring out what it all means and how we can endure!  

It has mostly been very satisfying and comfortable, but sometimes very stressful.  Not the least of the stress, by any means, are these "golden years" of becoming aged and infirm.  Not so much fun now.

But I too make contributions to society.  Did you read the thread I posted oh maybe five years ago -- bragging about my 'son' -- a poor kid in a poor country whom I supported through college -- and how that kid -- subsequently and completely on his own -- managed to get his masters -- and then a FULL scholarship and a PhD from Cambridge?  So yeah, while it ain't full parenting, I too know the joy of helping a smart little urchin morph into a scientist now working at one of UK's preeminent labs!  Not my genes?  I couldn't care less -- I am just as happy and giddy!

Way to go Ben, a good attitude, by a good human being.  

We need a lot more like you in these next couple of generations, I think!


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- John Kenneth Galbraith
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 1:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1 to Hikerjer in post 19 and WWW in 23...(www, you're beating me, I don't reach 50 until October).

Ben, congrats to you for demonstrating what a true member of the world "Village" should do.  You have made this a better place.


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My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 2:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"The property based concept of marriage was pretty much dealt death blows by the Romantic period and Protestantism in general."

Which covers what teensy fraction of the world and it's population?

Which is sort of the underlying point as the time before your "history". An overly narrow viewpoint invalidates grand sweeping gneralizations about "marriage".

The entire government intrusion into "marriage" is still based on property and contractual interests. Perhaps your confusion comes from assuming I was talking about the spouse as "property"? I wasn't and neither was Hammurabi. "Property" as in monetary assets, real estate, etc. The regulation of contract laws being a fundamental government interest.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 2:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Ben, congrats to you for demonstrating what a true member of the world "Village" should do.  You have made this a better place.
As any student of anthropology knows, children were raised by the tribe, not by the "nuclear family". See any book on marriage you like, outside of those written for the consumption of the right and the religious (or both together), and you'll find that there are many, many definitions and arrangements for marriage. One would think that a "world traveler" like Ben would know this.

Every time I read one of Ben's diatribes about the "spoiled, selfish and egotistical", I assume he must be talking about himself, because it ain't like that where I live.

(Ben2World @ Mar. 28 2013, 10:56 am)
QUOTE
I have no need for people who constantly talk down to others

In case you missed it, Ben, you consistently do a really good job of "talking down" to everyone else around here, so you should watch the accusations. (I should know, since you claim to be completely ignoring me since I pointed out the continuing inconsistencies of your beloved Catholic religion in regard to treatment of children.)
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 4:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks, wwwest and Old Frank!  I really appreciate it.  But ye parents actually devote tons more time and energy than I.  So kudos to you too.   :)

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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 6:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 28 2013, 12:48 pm)
QUOTE
"marriage" is still dependant on the relatively recent constructs of government and organized religion. Both relative newcomers to human existence. Then there's that the earliest concepts of "marriage" revolved around property issues, as were most aspects of the Hammurabic Code: legal contractual arrangements to regularize property management.

People have lived in various ways for endless millenia beyond that time horizon.

Marriage predates all other institutions

Only recently are there people that want to change the time honored meaning of the word

I fully support a commitment between loving adults of any sexual orientation...but get your own word for it!

I am tired of the minority trying to rule through political correctness and demagoguery.

Get your own name and then join in the suffering   :laugh:


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"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."

Thomas Sowell
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 7:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Mar. 28 2013, 3:50 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 28 2013, 12:48 pm)
QUOTE
"marriage" is still dependant on the relatively recent constructs of government and organized religion. Both relative newcomers to human existence. Then there's that the earliest concepts of "marriage" revolved around property issues, as were most aspects of the Hammurabic Code: legal contractual arrangements to regularize property management.

People have lived in various ways for endless millenia beyond that time horizon.

Marriage predates all other institutions

Only recently are there people that want to change the time honored meaning of the word

I fully support a commitment between loving adults of any sexual orientation...but get your own word for it!

I am tired of the minority trying to rule through political correctness and demagoguery.

Get your own name and then join in the suffering   :laugh:

The ones who need to widen their vocabulary are the governments: where, for instance "marriage" appears in one thousand one hundred Federal statutes and regulations alone.

So, no, the word is what everyone is stuck with.

Now religions can change their vocabulary: "sanctified hooking up", while a tad cubersome has the 'virtue' of being available I expect. Could shorten that to "Shu"?

"STD*: We're getting Shu'd tomorrow and after that we'll get in some heavy shu'ing....."

Yeah, this could be a thing.

* Save The Date.

ETA: Oh and the word "marriage" that has some so tangled up? ENGLISH** isn't all that old so we're not talking about any significant length of time for the term itself: so happy shu'ing!

** Have a read:
http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html

"Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
þeodcyninga,         þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas         ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaþena þreatum,
5
monegum mægþum,         meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas.         Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden,         he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum,         weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc         þara ymbsittendra
10
ofer hronrade         hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan.         þæt wæs god cyning!
Ðæm eafera wæs         æfter cenned,
geong in geardum,         þone god sende
folce to frofre;         fyrenðearfe ongeat
15
þe hie ær drugon         aldorlease
lange hwile.         Him þæs liffrea,
wuldres wealdend,         woroldare forgeaf;
Beowulf wæs breme         (blæd wide sprang),
Scyldes eafera         Scedelandum in.
20
Swa sceal geong guma         gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftum         on fæder bearme,
þæt hine on ylde         eft gewunigen
wilgesiþas,         þonne wig cume,
leode gelæsten;         lofdædum sceal
25
in mægþa gehwære         man geþeon.
Him ða Scyld gewat         to gescæphwile
felahror feran         on frean wære.
Hi hyne þa ætbæron         to brimes faroðe,
swæse gesiþas,         swa he selfa bæd,
30
þenden wordum weold         wine Scyldinga;
leof landfruma         lange ahte.
þær æt hyðe stod         hringedstefna,
isig ond utfus,         æþelinges fær.
Aledon þa         leofne þeoden,
35
beaga bryttan,         on bearm scipes,
mærne be mæste.         þær wæs madma fela
of feorwegum,         frætwa, gelæded;
ne hyrde ic cymlicor         ceol gegyrwan
hildewæpnum         ond heaðowædum,
40..."

NTD: Note The Date: 1000 A.D. quick read eh? Love the puns.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 28 2013, 7:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Marriage predates all other institutions

Say what??  Upon what do you base that statement??

So, you have evidence that Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals had the institution of marriage??  Please lead me to it!

They definitely had families, and tribes and shamans, we have evidence of all those, but where is the evidence of marriage as one of the fundamental institutions??


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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
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