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smokehiker 
Group: Members
Posts: 189
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 1:15 pm |
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I can agree with Uncle Joe on the effectiveness of a dbl. barrel shotgun. I don't agree with his concept of just going outside and emptying both barrels.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2177971972001/
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| Post Number: 2
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Marmotstew
Group: Members
Posts: 8754
Joined: May 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 1:43 pm |
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He must have a small package.
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I'd rather be Facebooking watching videos of cats licking themselves
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| Post Number: 3
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WalksWithBlackflies
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Group: Members
Posts: 8827
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 1:58 pm |
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I like how'd he send his wife to shoot the gun. 
"Jill, if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house."
I assume if "two blasts" is all it takes, then firing two blanks would work just as well as firing two shotshells?
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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| Post Number: 4
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Drift Woody
Group: Members
Posts: 5318
Joined: Feb. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 2:00 pm |
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Vice President Biden is a very patriotic American leader. Fox News, of course, edited out the part where Joe instructed his wife to fire 1 blast if by land, and 2 blasts if by sea.
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
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| Post Number: 5
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
Group: Members
Posts: 10918
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 3:17 pm |
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I have over the years maintained that a pump shotgun would be the best deterrent to any burglar. Anyone who has attended movies over the past couple of decades knows the sound that a pump makes while it is sliding a shell into the chamber. Any sane person would then be looking for the fastest way out of the house, and no one would need to get hurt, or fire a single shell.
Of course, if it became necessary to actually shoot a person inside the home, a shotgun loaded with alternating shells of bird shot and double ought should stop the intruder. Most spread with smaller shot, best stopping power with larger shot. Close hallways make it difficult to miss, and no worries the bullet will go through a neighbors walls and injure an innocent party.
I see nothing different with VP Joe Biden's advise.
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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| Post Number: 6
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Old Frank
Group: Members
Posts: 648
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 3:27 pm |
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(ol-zeke @ Feb. 20 2013, 3:17 pm)
QUOTE I have over the years maintained that a pump shotgun would be the best deterrent to any burglar. Anyone who has attended movies over the past couple of decades knows the sound that a pump makes while it is sliding a shell into the chamber. Any sane person would then be looking for the fastest way out of the house, and no one would need to get hurt, or fire a single shell.
Of course, if it became necessary to actually shoot a person inside the home, a shotgun loaded with alternating shells of bird shot and double ought should stop the intruder. Most spread with smaller shot, best stopping power with larger shot. Close hallways make it difficult to miss, and no worries the bullet will go through a neighbors walls and injure an innocent party.
I see nothing different with VP Joe Biden's advise.
The police officer who taught my CWP class agrees. Much to the disappointment of almost everybody in the class.
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My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
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| Post Number: 7
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Drift Woody
Group: Members
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Joined: Feb. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 3:28 pm |
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Ol-zeke, did you finally get tired of eating soup in the rain?
I really liked that sig line, though the new one is good too!
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
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| Post Number: 8
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4883
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 3:50 pm |
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I learned many years ago in gunnery school that a 12ga pump shotgun was the best close in (<100 yards) handheld weapon and was my preferred firearm for drug ship boardings. It still is for home defense and other "events".
I commented not long ago on these boards that a 12ga VS an "assault weapon", the shotgun always wins.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 9
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markinOhio
Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: Feb. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 4:26 pm |
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Nothing wrong with a shotgun for self-defense. But, I cannot say the same thing about the propaganda of Biden being “a champion of the 2nd Amendment”.
Also, don’t forget, shotguns that have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsible stock, or barrel shroud would be a prohibited firearm under the proposed AWB.
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| Post Number: 10
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
Group: Members
Posts: 10918
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 4:45 pm |
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(Drift Woody @ Feb. 20 2013, 12:28 pm)
QUOTE Ol-zeke, did you finally get tired of eating soup in the rain?
I really liked that sig line, though the new one is good too!
Over the years, I have tried to mix up my sig lines. I regret the software goes back and changes all of them to the new one. I see something new, and eventually change the sig line. "I may have 99 problems, but drinking is not one of them" was another funny one. The current one, given my own personal background, caught my eye immediately. Had to chuckle over it.
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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| Post Number: 11
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Lamebeaver
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Group: Members
Posts: 16346
Joined: Aug. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 5:27 pm |
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In many areas, firing a "warning shot" is illegal. I guess Biden doesn't worry about such trivial issues.
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| Post Number: 12
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wwwest
Group: Members
Posts: 4122
Joined: Dec. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 6:33 pm |
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In all areas killing another person is illegal. In rare circumstances it can be justified, but always illegal.
Long as you want to bring up non sequiturs.
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| Post Number: 15
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 9:12 pm |
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(justwalkin @ Feb. 20 2013, 8:23 pm)
QUOTE
(wwwest @ Feb. 20 2013, 6:33 pm)
QUOTE In all areas killing another person is illegal. In rare circumstances it can be justified, but always illegal. Killing another person is always illegal? You went to a really piss-poor public school, didn't you? You sir, are an idiot.
No. You are.
You are offering a legitimate defense against an act that would otherwise be considered illegal. The burden of proof would be on you, the shooter, in such an incident. It may be that you can easily prove that you (or your property in some states) were under threat in such an incident to the extent that no charges are ever pressed by prosecutors.
Perhaps if you think about think before you post. The answer is often more involved that you think.
I'm sure there are also exceptions to this, but in general I'd say its pretty accurate.
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| Post Number: 16
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Land Rover
Group: Members
Posts: 6529
Joined: Sep. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 9:14 pm |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 20 2013, 8:29 pm)
QUOTE
(markinOhio @ Feb. 20 2013, 2:26 pm)
QUOTE Also, don’t forget, shotguns that have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsible stock, or barrel shroud would be a prohibited firearm under the proposed AWB. Several sheriffs in MT have said they will not enforce such laws as they believe those laws are an infringement of the 2nd.
Well then they need to lose their jobs. Strangely that is the job of the Supreme Court.
Ironically they want to ignore the roles and processes outlined in the constitution so they can uphold the constitution. Oh the irony.
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| Post Number: 17
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HighGravity
Group: Members
Posts: 2379
Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 11:14 pm |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 20 2013, 8:29 pm)
QUOTE
(markinOhio @ Feb. 20 2013, 2:26 pm)
QUOTE Also, don’t forget, shotguns that have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsible stock, or barrel shroud would be a prohibited firearm under the proposed AWB. Several sheriffs in MT have said they will not enforce such laws as they believe those laws are an infringement of the 2nd.
Then they should be impeached. It's not a sheriff's job to interpret the Constitution any way he pleases.
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| Post Number: 18
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4883
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 20 2013, 11:46 pm |
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(Land Rover @ Feb. 20 2013, 7:14 pm)
QUOTE
(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 20 2013, 8:29 pm)
QUOTE
(markinOhio @ Feb. 20 2013, 2:26 pm)
QUOTE Also, don’t forget, shotguns that have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsible stock, or barrel shroud would be a prohibited firearm under the proposed AWB. Several sheriffs in MT have said they will not enforce such laws as they believe those laws are an infringement of the 2nd. Well then they need to lose their jobs. Strangely that is the job of the Supreme Court. Ironically they want to ignore the roles and processes outlined in the constitution so they can uphold the constitution. Oh the irony.
LEOs are not legally oblegated to follow unConstitutional laws. But it's the same Catch 22 as in the military... a soldier cannot legally be bound to follow an unlawful order but the determination of legality is quite often after the fact.
Even so, if there are thousands of LEOs refusing to enforce a law then the law is most probably wrong. Back in the slavery days, many law officers refused to arrest, detain or return escaped/escaping slaves as required by law. Were they wrong?
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 19
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39795
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 12:17 am |
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"LEOs are not legally oblegated to follow unConstitutional laws."
LEOs are not legally empowered to make the decision about what laws are or are not Constitutional. That's why the federal courts wear the black robes.
They can't honor their oath of office? Then they need to quit.
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| Post Number: 20
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| Post Number: 21
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Three
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Group: Members
Posts: 765
Joined: Dec. 2011
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 12:48 am |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 20 2013, 3:50 pm)
QUOTE I learned many years ago in gunnery school that a 12ga pump shotgun was the best close in (<100 yards) handheld weapon and was my preferred firearm for drug ship boardings. It still is for home defense and other "events".
I commented not long ago on these boards that a 12ga VS an "assault weapon", the shotgun always wins.
I would suggest this is old school. Many if not most police now use AR 15s instead of shotguns as their "go to" long gun in their patrol cars.
AR-15 advantages - more rounds, less recoil, more accurate, quicker follow-up shots, easier to mount a light for postive target ID, and, with lighter projectiles, than 00 buck. Also remember that at room length many shotgun load haven't opened up yet, so they still have to be aimed like a rifle.
Shotguns have their niches, but for home defense, AR-15s have the advantage, no matter what "fire a couple of rounds off the balcony" VP Biden says. That's why AR-15s should be legal for all law abiding Americans.
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| Post Number: 22
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rangersven
Group: Members
Posts: 3009
Joined: Jul. 2002
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 6:56 am |
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I would suggest this is old school. Many if not most police now use AR 15s instead of shotguns as their "go to" long gun in their patrol cars.
I disagree. Most use the MP-5 or M-4 these days...
Happy Trails,
RS
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"Backpacker.com's Original Provocateur"
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| Post Number: 23
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| Post Number: 24
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markinOhio
Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: Feb. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 8:16 am |
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 21 2013, 12:17 am)
QUOTE "LEOs are not legally oblegated to follow unConstitutional laws."
LEOs are not legally empowered to make the decision about what laws are or are not Constitutional. That's why the federal courts wear the black robes.
They can't honor their oath of office? Then they need to quit.
I’m a little confused about how conflicts between State and Federal Laws are resolved. I’m under the impression that Federal Law always supersedes State Law. Yet, there are many recent examples of States passing laws that are far more stringent than current Federal Law (NY & CO). On the other side, there are many States attempting to pass laws to avoid more stringent Federal Law.
Is it just a matter of enforcement? That is, the respective agencies are only compelled to enforce laws at their level? Does the individual have a legal recourse at the other level?
Example #1:
Joe in NY is sitting in his apartment eating a Katz Pastrami. The NY men in black want to breach the two security doors in his apartment building equipped with fully automatic 5.56 rifles to seize his Grandfathers .22 with a 10 round clip (true killing machine), and place him in State prison for life.
Since it is only a nanny state law, are the Feds compelled to assist the state with the C-4 explosive experts to blow the security doors?
Does Joe in NY have recourse on the Federal level? That is, can he successfully argue in State court that the law is in conflict with Federal Law?
Example #2:
After the Federal Government voids the 2nd Amendment and passes an AWB, Bud in TX is sitting in his living room playing Call of Duty and drinking a couple dozen Lone Stars. The Feds equipped with fully automatic 7.62x39 rifles (100 round drums) want to bust in without a warrant to seize his Grandfathers .22 with a 15 round clip, and place Bud in Federal prison for life. TX which is still in America, has passed laws protecting the 2nd Amendment.
Are State officials compelled to assist the Feds?
Does Bud have recourse in Federal Court to successfully argue that the law is in conflict with TX (American) law?
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| Post Number: 25
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
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Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 8:29 am |
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That's where state rights come in. Look at pot laws... still a felony but many states refuse to enforce those laws or assist in arrests or prosecutions. Some will go so far as to impede those federal officers. The same will likely be the case with firearms.
But both sides are contradictory and very hypocritical on states rights. In the above example, the left thinks pot laws should be up to the state but guns should be federal jurisdiction. It's just the opposite with the right.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 26
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| Post Number: 27
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Montanalonewolf
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 8:42 am |
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The country was founded on the principle that states rights superceded the feds. The citizen reigned supreme and the government only had powers specifically granted it while citizens were presumed to be free from anything except that specifically denied them.
That's now reversed.
Now the government is presumed to be all powerful, only restricted by that specifically denied it while citizens are (generally) denied anything not specifically granted them.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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| Post Number: 28
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markinOhio
Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: Feb. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 9:05 am |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 21 2013, 8:32 am)
QUOTE QUOTE I’m a little confused about how conflicts between State and Federal Laws are resolved. Federal, State, or local... the most stringent applies. A State or municipality cannot enact legislation that lessens a Federal law, but they can make a law that's stronger (assuming it's constitutional). In the asbestos industry (my work), the EPA regulations lay the groundwork. On top of that, NY has adopted certain EPA regs and enacted stronger regulations for some types of work. On top of that, some municipalities regulate how notices are posted, or how wastewater is disposed in the municipal sewer. Always more stringent.
So, what about the CO pot laws? They are less restrictive than Federal Law (not that I object to freeing the flower).
Moonbeam in CO is tending her “flowers” and listening to the Grateful Dead. The Feds want to send out a platoon to surround her residence with fully automatic weapons, breach the door, and send Moonbeam to Federal prison.
What is preventing them from enforcing Federal Law?
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BillBab
Group: Members
Posts: 4550
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Posted on: Feb. 21 2013, 9:46 am |
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(ol-zeke @ Feb. 20 2013, 3:17 pm)
QUOTE I have over the years maintained that a pump shotgun would be the best deterrent to any burglar. Anyone who has attended movies over the past couple of decades knows the sound that a pump makes while it is sliding a shell into the chamber. Any sane person would then be looking for the fastest way out of the house, and no one would need to get hurt, or fire a single shell.
Of course, if it became necessary to actually shoot a person inside the home, a shotgun loaded with alternating shells of bird shot and double ought should stop the intruder. Most spread with smaller shot, best stopping power with larger shot. Close hallways make it difficult to miss, and no worries the bullet will go through a neighbors walls and injure an innocent party.
I see nothing different with VP Joe Biden's advise.
A shotgun can be a devestating weapon...no doubt
Which is why it is kind of silly to pretend that an AR15 is some kind of hammer of death but your bird guns are perfectly acceptable and benign
But the scattergun also has a lot of urban legend baggage attached to it ...I especially love to hear the rmchair commandoes refer to "the sound of it racking" and wonder if I should market an .mp3 file of that sound for home protection....alternate it with the doberman barking tape to scare off intruders.....or possible cause them to start shooting...oops!
You can easily miss with a shotgun. The accuracy with shot for any given setup is very dependent on the range to the target
At most home defense ranges, the shot load will open up very little , if at all, and I enjoy proving this to folks at the range.....they are amazed to see the shot and wad go through one ragged little 12 gauge hole...looks like you used a slug
The bird shot crowd seem convinced that the bad guy will not be wearing a decent jacket...I have seen bird shot fail to penetrate an IPSC target that is 1/8 inch thick corrugated fibreboard
Police have largely switched to AR's because of the better accuracy.....they are not excited about using buckshot and potentially killing the hostage AND the bad guy, and while slugs can be pretty accurate in some guns the sights on most shotguns are nothing special.
Ammunition is bulky and shooting one handed is problematic
Ironically, all of the modifications that you can make to a scattergun to make it easier to fight with also tend to land it on the dreaded "assault weapon" black list
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"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."
Thomas Sowell
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
