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Topic: Guns are needed to protect against the DANGER, of Shariah Law< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 10:44 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

according to Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas):
QUOTE
"We've got some people who think Sharia law oughta be the law of the land, forget the Constitution. But the guns are there, the Second Amendment is there, to make sure all of the rest of the amendments are followed."

It makes me wonder if his constituents are really that stupid, or if this is some kind of inside joke or wingnut code for giving expressing to religious bigotry.

I bet a lot of the same folks paranoid about government-mandated Islamic law would like to see Biblical Christian law implemented throughout the land.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 11:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A conservative friend of mine made similar comments to me regarding the threat of sharia law in the US.  And this guy is not stupid, he's an attorney for the DA's office.

I asked him to elaborate on why he believes this threat exists.  All he said was:the signs are obvious .

The only thing I found obvious was that he's living in a different world than I am.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I saw the title and immediately said I bet this is dumb louie and sure enough I was right

This is what has become of the republican party that even the leadership and republican da's spew the idiocy.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 11:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It really makes you wonder who is responsible for electing these nut jobs!

On the other side, we have representatives that insist that there is a plague of gun violence (despite statistical evidence to the contrary), and that to protect us from this DANGER they want to place “common sense” limits on firearms (despite any evidence that these limits will have an effect on gun violence).
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 12:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Makes me wonder about the American education system...

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 12:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How much gun violence would it take to qualify as "a plague" to you, Mark?
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(hbfa @ Feb. 22 2013, 11:21 am)
QUOTE
A conservative friend of mine made similar comments to me regarding the threat of sharia law in the US.  And this guy is not stupid, he's an attorney for the DA's office.

I asked him to elaborate on why he believes this threat exists.  All he said was:the signs are obvious .

The only thing I found obvious was that he's living in a different world than I am.

You should tell him the alcohol lobby in this country is too strong to ever let Sharia law get a foothold.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 12:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 22 2013, 9:19 am)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Feb. 22 2013, 11:21 am)
QUOTE
A conservative friend of mine made similar comments to me regarding the threat of sharia law in the US.  And this guy is not stupid, he's an attorney for the DA's office.

I asked him to elaborate on why he believes this threat exists.  All he said was:the signs are obvious .

The only thing I found obvious was that he's living in a different world than I am.

You should tell him the alcohol lobby in this country is too strong to ever let Sharia law get a foothold.

Christian and  Muslim Women Temperance Union.   :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 1:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

markinOhio said
QUOTE

On the other side, we have representatives that insist that there is a plague of gun violence
(despite statistical evidence to the contrary), and that to protect us from this DANGER they
want to place “common sense” limits on firearms (despite any evidence that these limits will
have an effect on gun violence).


There  is NO "other side" in terms of eqivalent insanity to the right-wing nut jobs like
Louie. What you call the "other side" is mainstream America suggesting things like background
checks that even the majority of NRA members(something like 74%) believe on unlike their own
NRA leadership. There is ABSOLUTELY evidence that some kind of regulations reduce gun violence
such as the following of which I've mentioned before


The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It
highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault
weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation.
Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm
deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and
mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).


http://www.theatlantic.com/nationa....54

Funny how so many people are familiar with the NRA talking points but not evidence like
the above.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 1:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Feb. 22 2013, 11:05 am)
QUOTE
How much gun violence would it take to qualify as "a plague" to you, Mark?

That's a good question, and probably explains (at least in part) his strident opposition to new gun control laws -- he apparntly thinks the level of gun violence in our country is quite acceptable.

I don't have time to research the links right now, but I'm quite certain that firearm homicides in the US are off the charts compared with other Western democracies and Japan. My local paper (Chicago Trib) reports that gun deaths have been rising in the city, and unintended victims of stray bullets are all too commonplace.

Recently there was an article about an actual arrest of a straw purchaser, but that's a rare exception. The guy would go across the border to gun shows in northwest Indiana, buy as many as he wanted with no waiting or background checks, and sell them at a profit to gangbangers in the city.

Gun advocates like to point to the high rates of gun violence in Chicago as proof that gun control laws don't work, but what this really exposes is the need for universal background checks and gun registration at point of sale on a national level.

NRA types are always saying that gun laws would only impact law-abiding citizens, but I think that is quite plainly not true. It is the gaping loophole in the background check system that makes it so easy for gangbangers and other criminals to get their hands on these weapons. When that straw purchaser is brought up on criminal charges after the gun he sold was recovered from a crime, that will be a good start at reducing the plague of gun violence that claims so many innocent lives.

Besides, I doubt we need to have a bunch of armed gangbangers to protect us from Shariah Law.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 1:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 22 2013, 11:50 am)
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Besides, I doubt we need to have a bunch of armed gangbangers to protect us from Shariah Law.

The armed gangbanger union is going to have a fit with that one.

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(hbfa @ Feb. 22 2013, 9:05 am)
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How much gun violence would it take to qualify as "a plague" to you, Mark?

I think it's a sad testament to just how "individualized" our society has become -- that for some people, there is never a 'plague' -- until someone they hold near and dear gets killed.  Then it becomes a crusade to right a wrong!

Cindy Sheehan is one such.  Never mind the thousands of deaths, nothing wrong until "they" took away her  baby.  Then (and only then), she became an anti-war crusader.   We have a couple similar right here on this board.  Same as what's her name former congresswoman who got shot at and is now all about gun controls?  ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 2:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The best way to assure that law-abiding citizens have access to guns is to assure that the nation is absolutely awash in guns.

At least it appears, to me, to be what the NRA's basic position is.

Dang, when I think about it,  they may be right.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 2:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Feb. 22 2013, 12:53 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Feb. 22 2013, 11:50 am)
QUOTE
Besides, I doubt we need to have a bunch of armed gangbangers to protect us from Shariah Law.

The armed gangbanger union is going to have a fit with that one.

Probably not a good idea for me to attend their annual convention.
Or a Louie Gohmert fund raiser, for that matter.  :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 2:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Feb. 22 2013, 1:35 pm)
QUOTE
markinOhio said
QUOTE

On the other side, we have representatives that insist that there is a plague of gun violence
(despite statistical evidence to the contrary), and that to protect us from this DANGER they
want to place “common sense” limits on firearms (despite any evidence that these limits will
have an effect on gun violence).


There  is NO "other side" in terms of eqivalent insanity to the right-wing nut jobs like
Louie. What you call the "other side" is mainstream America suggesting things like background
checks that even the majority of NRA members(something like 74%) believe on unlike their own
NRA leadership. There is ABSOLUTELY evidence that some kind of regulations reduce gun violence
such as the following of which I've mentioned before


The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It
highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault
weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation.
Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm
deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and
mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).


http://www.theatlantic.com/nationa....54

Funny how so many people are familiar with the NRA talking points but not evidence like
the above.

Let’s look past the fact that this was a piece by an editor, and not a scientific study. Let’s look past the fact that it is flawed on too many levels to possibly list. Let’s look past the absurdity of drawing any conclusions based on this piece. Let’s just pretend that it is credible evidence.

Agreed?

The BAD news:
None of the gun control correlations were strong (+/- .5)

So, in our little nut job world where this is a valid study, there is NOT a strong correlation between stricter gun control measures and less gun violence. Those right wing bunker dwellers get to keep their killing machines.

The GOOD news:
We have the answer to our plague of gun violence!
There was a strong correlation between an economy dominated by working class jobs and gun deaths.

Yep, it was those EVIL blue-collar workers! Damn socialist killing our children need to be eliminated!


Oh, and one last BONUS just for you:
The areas most effected by Obama’s JOBLESS recovery did NOT have a strong correlation with gun deaths.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 3:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Feb. 22 2013, 1:50 pm)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Feb. 22 2013, 11:05 am)
QUOTE
How much gun violence would it take to qualify as "a plague" to you, Mark?

That's a good question, and probably explains (at least in part) his strident opposition to new gun control laws -- he apparntly thinks the level of gun violence in our country is quite acceptable.

I don't have time to research the links right now, but I'm quite certain that firearm homicides in the US are off the charts compared with other Western democracies and Japan. My local paper (Chicago Trib) reports that gun deaths have been rising in the city, and unintended victims of stray bullets are all too commonplace.

Recently there was an article about an actual arrest of a straw purchaser, but that's a rare exception. The guy would go across the border to gun shows in northwest Indiana, buy as many as he wanted with no waiting or background checks, and sell them at a profit to gangbangers in the city.

Gun advocates like to point to the high rates of gun violence in Chicago as proof that gun control laws don't work, but what this really exposes is the need for universal background checks and gun registration at point of sale on a national level.

NRA types are always saying that gun laws would only impact law-abiding citizens, but I think that is quite plainly not true. It is the gaping loophole in the background check system that makes it so easy for gangbangers and other criminals to get their hands on these weapons. When that straw purchaser is brought up on criminal charges after the gun he sold was recovered from a crime, that will be a good start at reducing the plague of gun violence that claims so many innocent lives.

Besides, I doubt we need to have a bunch of armed gangbangers to protect us from Shariah Law.

I get that a single homicide is too many, and that the level of violence in the US is too high. But, how can it possibly be considered a “plague” when gun murders are at the lowest point in 30 years?

Further, I would like to point out that violence is not somehow conjured simply by the existence of guns. If that were the case, before the invention of gunpowder, the world would have been a peaceful utopia. Please be honest with yourself, will the mere absence of a gun really prevent a homicidal maniac from killing? Is someone really killing just because they have access to a gun?

I enjoy pushing the issue to the extreme (it’s fun). It is a serious issue, it is absolutely devastating to too many Americans, and perhaps there are some measures that we can take to help reduce all violence (including but not limited to gun violence). However, I’m not going to just blindly accept measures because someone says that they are “common sense”.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 3:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"blindly accept measures because someone says "

The danger as I see it, really in many ways beyond issues of "rights" is that from my observation and experience ineffective measures will mean effective measures are not taken as from a government action point of view this sort of effort IS a zero sum game and the underlying issues of violence in America are far more messy and potentially expensive than a ban on magazines that would hold 11 cartridges rather than 10. Once the legislation passes and the photo-op held on the Capitol steps "victory" will ring out across the land without actual regard to whether people stopped dying.

And that's why "well, how could it hurt?" "one life" sorts of considerations fall short for me.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 3:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

markinOhio said
QUOTE

Let’s look past the fact that this was a piece by an editor, and not a scientific study.


not a scientific study based on what?

What does the fact its a piece by an editor(who happens to have a PHD in urban planning from
Columbia so public policy is what he specializes in as well as economics) makes it less
credible? What a absurd criteria to disqualify someone. So if someone is an editor of a
magazine(all magazines have editors) then that disqualifies them?

As the very credible Ezra Klein said about this study and this "editor"


5. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and
other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher
populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with
more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable:
States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer
here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs....print=1

Where is your counter study to debunk it?

Heck where are your sources and scientific studies?

You're making many many assertions and where are your sources?

markinOhio said
QUOTE

Let’s look past the fact that it is flawed on too many levels to possibly list.


Like what? You think by making such assertion that makes it true?

markinOhio said
QUOTE

Let’s look past the absurdity of drawing any conclusions based on this piece. Let’s just pretend that it is credible evidence.


What is absurd about that? What is absurd is, once again, you've made endless assertions
regarding gun control yet where are your sources?

markinOhio said
QUOTE

The BAD news:
None of the gun control correlations were strong (+/- .5)


So the criteria isn't that they are substantial but they are strong.
Gee how convenient.

But wait a second, your exact statement was despite any evidence that these limits
will have an effect on gun violence


Those correlations certainly contradict your assertion that despite any evidence that these limits
will have an effect on gun violence
whether or not you want to characterize those
correlations as "strong"

Also relative to the other criteria they looked at there wwer only 3 other criteria that had
stronger negative correlations than assault weapons ban, require trigger locks and a mandate
safe storage requirements for guns.

markinOhio said
QUOTE

So, in our little nut job world where this is a valid study, there is NOT a strong correlation between stricter gun control measures and less gun violence. Those right wing bunker dwellers get to keep their killing machines.


I get it Mark. You think by essentially labeling this study as something only "nut jobs"
would think is valid, that it will confuse what are the nutty positions in the gun control
debate. So for example instead of people who advocate something as non controversial as
background checks, its the people who advocate background checks or mandate safe storage
requirements are the nuts rather than the people like the NRA leadership who say we must no
institute background checks. The nut job world is the nut job world who thinks something like
background checks or require trigger locks is radical. Nothing in that study was "nutty".
That is your way of trying to undercut the study without actually undercutting it.

But want more studies?

here you go


4. More guns tend to mean more homicide.

The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and
found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This
holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different state., Citations
here.

5. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and
other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher
populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with
more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable:
States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer
here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs....print=1

So are you going to be disingenuous again and claim this isn't a scientific or valid study
while you simultaneously continue to make assertion after assertion without ANYTHING to back
it up such as "despite any evidence that these limits will have an effect on gun violence"

if you're not going to cite your sources to justify your assertions about gun control and
instead use yourself as the authority then cite a link that lists all your qualifications
of expertise including your education and work experience so we can know you know what
you're talking about. Obviously in my guess I am using sources so I'm NOT using my self
as an authority.
cite a link that lists YOUR qualifications which shows

markinOhio said
QUOTE

Oh, and one last BONUS just for you:
The areas most effected by Obama’s JOBLESS recovery did NOT have a strong correlation with gun deaths.


You continue to show your ignorance by describing it as "Obama’s JOBLESS recovery" not to
mention that even describing it terms "Obama's" economy tells me you expect the government
to take at least major role if not the ONLY ROLE in the economy but who would expect that
other than a socialist or communist?


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(markinOhio @ Feb. 22 2013, 12:12 pm)
QUOTE
I get that a single homicide is too many, and that the level of violence in the US is too high. But, how can it possibly be considered a “plague” when gun murders are at the lowest point in 30 years?

How?
By the fact that despite the downward trend, are numbers are still incredibly high.
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(hbfa @ Feb. 22 2013, 2:35 pm)
QUOTE

(markinOhio @ Feb. 22 2013, 12:12 pm)
QUOTE
I get that a single homicide is too many, and that the level of violence in the US is too high. But, how can it possibly be considered a “plague” when gun murders are at the lowest point in 30 years?

How?
By the fact that despite the downward trend, are numbers are still incredibly high.

It was higher in 1993 and decreased 'till about 2000, but has been on the rise since.

Increased regulations and safety measures on autos (air bags, more qualifications for young drivers, etc) have decreased auto deaths by a large margin, but guns have had the opposite trend in the past decade.



Link

Just putting the data out there, nothing more, nothing less.  It kinda puts the extreme claims on either end ("Highest death rates ever!",  "Lowest death rates ever!") in perspective.


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(Dennis The Menace @ Feb. 22 2013, 3:56 pm)
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Those correlations certainly contradict your assertion that despite any evidence that these limits
will have an effect on gun violence
whether or not you want to characterize those
correlations as "strong"

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis,

Not only are you arguing the validity of this pseudoscience silliness, you are misinterpreting the silliness.

No, with 100% absolute certainty, they do not. Even if this were a scientific study. The simple correlation even if it were in fact strong (not my characterization it is actually determined by firmly established criteria) could not possibly prove causation or effect. It is a fairly rudimentary principal, even the well know scientists Ezra Klein and Richard Florida make that concession.

But, again, in this nut job world where this is valid data:

The blue-collar worker seems to be the biggest key to gun violence in America. What are we going to do about them? Maybe Richard Florida will bang out another article, and let us know?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 4:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Speaking of perspective...  32,000 deaths?   3,000 died on 9/11 and the entire nation was terrified!  The nation tossed in another 5,000 bodies plus $2 trillion dollars to douse that fire with more fire.  Didn't work.

Not saying we should yank away every gun.  But making guns even more available is akin to fighting fire with more fire.   Won't work.


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(GoBlueHiker @ Feb. 22 2013, 4:39 pm)
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(hbfa @ Feb. 22 2013, 2:35 pm)
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(markinOhio @ Feb. 22 2013, 12:12 pm)
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I get that a single homicide is too many, and that the level of violence in the US is too high. But, how can it possibly be considered a “plague” when gun murders are at the lowest point in 30 years?

How?
By the fact that despite the downward trend, are numbers are still incredibly high.

It was higher in 1993 and decreased 'till about 2000, but has been on the rise since.

Increased regulations and safety measures on autos (air bags, more qualifications for young drivers, etc) have decreased auto deaths by a large margin, but guns have had the opposite trend in the past decade.



Link

Just putting the data out there, nothing more, nothing less.  It kinda puts the extreme claims on either end ("Highest death rates ever!",  "Lowest death rates ever!") in perspective.

Just for clarification, I was referencing the gun homicide rate being at a 30-year low, not the death rate.

Plenty of stuff here to keep both sides pointing the finger:

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 5:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Curious... how many of you have actually been to a place under Sharia Law?

On my trip to Aceh, the part of Indonesia formally under Sharia Law... the high school girls I encountered are just as crazy and sweet as any -- blowing me hearts and kisses.  I LOVE Indonesia!   :)





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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 5:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben, you were duped. That's the University of Oregon pride symbol. The kisses are actually taunts for Kahliphonia faulks.

In all seriousness the anti Muslim crusade in this country is not only un
American it isn't remotely Christian. If we blamed faiths for the actions of a few thousand hypocrites imagine how long the list of "Christians" would be.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 5:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That's why we don't want to live under ANY religion's laws.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 6:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Panhandler @ Feb. 22 2013, 2:45 pm)
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That's why we don't want to live under ANY religion's laws.

Indeed.  But it's not just religious laws that can become dictatorial.  Secular ones too.  Slavery.  Imperialism.  Rampant nationalism. Communism.   Secular persecutions run the entire spectrum from left to right.

What we always need are checks and balances.  Power, in any form, corrupts.  And absolute power, in any form, corrupts absolutely.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 6:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Feb. 22 2013, 2:37 pm)
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Ben, you were duped. That's the University of Oregon pride symbol. The kisses are actually taunts for Kahliphonia faulks.

:(

But seriously, I do agree with you about the so-called Muslim crusade here.  And sadly, it's 98% based on ignorance / lack of understanding.  Makes me question, time and again, the education system in our country.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 6:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Feb. 22 2013, 2:56 pm)
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Just for clarification, I was referencing the gun homicide rate being at a 30-year low, not the death rate.

Plenty of stuff here to keep both sides pointing the finger:

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

Fair enough.  And you're right, there's plenty of cherry-pickable data in that link to fuel a debate on both sides for many years.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2013, 6:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

I really don't get this whole "Shariah Law" scare in the first place.  Is there actually any evidence whatsoever that there's a push to implement Shariah Law in the USA?  Any?  One quote from a whacko somewhere does not a trend make.

Just sounds like a buncha fear-mongering and thinly veiled racism/xenophobia to me.  Meh.


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