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Topic: Mounting tensions between china and Japan.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 12:12 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In the event of war with China over the disputed Diaoyutai (Diaoyu or Senkaku) islands in the East China Sea, Japan's defense ministry would attempt a coordinated attack with the US to sink China's first and only aircraft carrier in service, the Liaoning, reports our sister newspaper Want Daily.

The scenario, as reported by the Tokyo-based Sankei Shimbun, would see Japanese F-15J fighters taking out China's advanced aircraft with aid from the US Air Force. Japan would then be able to launch an attack with its F-2 jets against the larger vessels of the PLA Navy.


http://thediplomat.com/flashpo....d-china


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 7:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

They can dream on about hiding behind the American nuclear skirt: ain't gonna happen. We didn't spend the last sixty years occupying them to let Japan drag us into another war.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 9:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 24 2013, 4:02 pm)
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They can dream on about hiding behind the American nuclear skirt: ain't gonna happen.

Reminds me of Israel building settlements -- knowing we won't abandon them.  Alliances rub both ways.

Having said the above, the true idiot in all this is the Chinese leadership.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 10:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've been following this situation since early September.  I predict a lengthy stalemate, then a negotiated settlement.  The chances of our backing a military move against China seem laughable, and I would be astounded if the Japanese government's calculations are any different.  China is really pushing it here, but I don't think this is where and how the sea lanes issue gets resolved.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 1:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 24 2013, 6:49 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 24 2013, 4:02 pm)
QUOTE
They can dream on about hiding behind the American nuclear skirt: ain't gonna happen.

Reminds me of Israel building settlements -- knowing we won't abandon them.  Alliances rub both ways.

Having said the above, the true idiot in all this is the Chinese leadership.

Starting a shooting war with a nuclear weapons armed China isn't even remotely like building settlements.

So like I said. : "They can dream on about hiding behind the American nuclear skirt: ain't gonna happen. We didn't spend the last sixty years occupying them to let Japan drag us into another war."
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 2:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 24 2013, 10:59 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Feb. 24 2013, 6:49 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 24 2013, 4:02 pm)
QUOTE
They can dream on about hiding behind the American nuclear skirt: ain't gonna happen.

Reminds me of Israel building settlements -- knowing we won't abandon them.  Alliances rub both ways.

Having said the above, the true idiot in all this is the Chinese leadership.

Starting a shooting war with a nuclear weapons armed China isn't even remotely like building settlements.

So like I said. : "They can dream on about hiding behind the American nuclear skirt: ain't gonna happen. We didn't spend the last sixty years occupying them to let Japan drag us into another war."

In both cases, we've got a smallish nation pursuing its agenda -- believing it's got the gorilla's backing.

Will the US actually let itself get sucked into a potential nuclear war?  Doubtful.  But that doesn't mean our politicians haven't been "leading Japan and other Asian countries on" over the past year or two.  US Is playing a very dangerous game of "containing China" -- because Japan, Vietnam, Philippines all have their own agenda via-a-vis China, and they all want to leverage the US.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 8:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Obama went to Australia and gave that rhetorical speech, posted 2,500 marines there and told Southeast Asia, this is to let you know that the US is in town in case China starts any ****, (essentially). And the Chinese president told his military to prepare for war. And, we have seen the Chinese military expenditures skyrocket.

While actual military conflict with China may not be likely, it certainly isn't impossible. But the US has been slapping women around basically, taking on countries like Libya, Iraq, A-Stan, conflict with China could easily morph into world war, we've had those before too.

One ought to go look at Chinas military spending thought their growth period over the three decades between 1975 and 2005, and compare it to their current spending. It's not for nothing.


I have a friend that works for Halliburton, he's in Malaysia, and they are aggressively working the South China Sea (for oil). That would be like China setting up in Jamaica and aggressively working the Caribbean.

At any rate, China has surpassed us in some things and will be approaching our equal in others. Poking a stick at them won't be a joking matter.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 8:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 25 2013, 8:23 am)
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I have a friend that works for Halliburton, he's in Malaysia, and they are aggressively working the South China Sea (for oil). That would be like China setting up in Jamaica and aggressively working the Caribbean.

Actually the Chinese National Oil Company is trying to increase it's holdings in both North and South America.


http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines....0e-ecb1


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 8:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah. If the US invests in oil companies around the world, that's the same thing as Halliburton working the South China Sea.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Feb. 25 2013, 8:48 am)
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Yeah. If the US invests in oil companies around the world, that's the same thing as Halliburton working the South China Sea.

Do you know what your are talking about?

Halliburton is a service company, they do work for anyone willing to pay them, including the Chinese.  They are not owned by the US Government.

http://www.halliburton.com/Locatio....id=5759

The Chinese National Oil Company (CNOOC) is owned by the Chinese Government.  There is not a United States National Oil Company.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 2:28 am)
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In both cases, we've got a smallish nation pursuing its agenda -- believing it's got the gorilla's backing.

I don't see much indication of serious people in Japan believing that the US will back military action.  I see several reasons why others would make noise about it there, most of which arise from domestic political pandering on several somewhat interrelated issues.  Fueling resentment against China is one,  calling attention to the limitation in US support is another, building support for greater Japanese remilitarization is a third.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 4:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:38 am)
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(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 2:28 am)
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In both cases, we've got a smallish nation pursuing its agenda -- believing it's got the gorilla's backing.

I don't see much indication of serious people in Japan believing that the US will back military action.  I see several reasons why others would make noise about it there, most of which arise from domestic political pandering on several somewhat interrelated issues.  Fueling resentment against China is one,  calling attention to the limitation in US support is another, building support for greater Japanese remilitarization is a third.

Encouraging the remilitarization of Japan is risky too.  Some might relish arming one Asian country to counter another... but turning Asia back into a tinderbox doesn't do anyone any good -- including us!

A much better alternative -- one we should have embarked on long ago -- is to bring China into cooperating with us and with Europe.  A case in point is the ISS (International Space Station).  Right from the get go, our stance has been to shut China out. So, instead of allowing them in and building mutual-dependence... we force a very-determined China to develop complete systems all on its own!  Not a good move.

As for China, this former top dog carries an awful chip on its shoulders.  China's problem (which it fails miserably to understand) -- is that it is doing exactly the wrong thing in terms of building trust among its neighbors -- the very thing it must succeed if it wants to regain leadership status...


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 4:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 4:26 pm)
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Encouraging the remilitarization of Japan is risky too.  Some might relish arming one Asian country to counter another... but turning Asia back into a tinderbox doesn't do anyone any good -- including us!

Just to be clear, I'm talking about Japanese domestic politics, not what the US should encourage.  I suspect that saber-rattling by anyone with real authority in Japan will dampen any such encouragement.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 4:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ah, I see.  I misunderstood... thanks for clarifying.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 6:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

With the yen down, the Chinese can probably just buy the stupid islands.  Maybe dedicate it as a peace park or outlet mall.

Nah.  The bigger issue are the potential underwater oil fields in the South China sea with all the countries competing claims.  That's a mess waiting to happen.  With modern cruise missiles, that could send quite a few container ships down to the bottom of the Pacific.  Wonder if a million size 12 air jordan's or various backpacks will form a good coral reef?

Oh, the joys of outsourcing...


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(SW Mtn backpacker @ Feb. 25 2013, 6:51 pm)
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With the yen down, the Chinese can probably just buy the stupid islands.

Funny you should mention that.  While this goes back much further, the most recent flare-up started when private (Japanese) owners tried to sell some of the islands to China.  The Japanese government had already declined buy it from the current owners, but objected to the Chinese sale.

link
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 9:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 4:07 pm)
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(SW Mtn backpacker @ Feb. 25 2013, 6:51 pm)
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With the yen down, the Chinese can probably just buy the stupid islands.

Funny you should mention that.  While this goes back much further, the most recent flare-up started when private (Japanese) owners tried to sell some of the islands to China.  The Japanese government had already declined buy it from the current owners, but objected to the Chinese sale.

link

My understanding was that the private Japanese owner wanted to sell the island to Tokyo City -- headed by a very hawkish mayor -- and the slightly less hawkish central government purchased it instead -- to sort of kind of diffuse the situation -- but none too successfully.

I haven't read about any initial Japanese sale of the island to China.  Link?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

SHARE

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FACT FILE 7km2 Area of the Senkaku or Diaoyu islands Ads by Google

It would be crazy if a bunch of five uninhabited rocks, covering no more than seven square kilometres, precipitated a military conflict between the world’s second and third largest economic powers. Crazy, and most unlikely: but all the same, it is strange how little attention is being paid to the increasingly fraught dispute between China and Japan over what the former calls Diaoyu and the latter Senkaku.
On the other hand, I have just returned from a week in Japan, so perhaps I am out of touch with the priorities in Britain (and maybe mainland Europe, too): what to do about the publication of fuzzy photos of the Duchess of Cambridge without her top on. Meanwhile in Asia... there have been mass demonstrations in 80 cities across China against the decision of the Japanese government to buy the disputed islands from their private owner (a Japanese businessman); various Japanese multinationals, such as Canon and Panasonic have closed down their factories in China, to avoid the risk of being stormed by irate local mobs – one firm has already seen some of its production facilities destroyed; and an aide to the Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda said that Japan’s Self Defence forces might need to be deployed, as “we cannot rule out the possibility that China will deploy its military ”.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices....73.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:42 pm)
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I haven't read about any initial Japanese sale of the island to China.  Link?

Not a sale by the government;  the Japanese government objected to private sale to the Chinese.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:34 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:42 pm)
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I haven't read about any initial Japanese sale of the island to China.  Link?

Not a sale by the government;  the Japanese government objected to private sale to the Chinese.

Right, I am just not aware of any actual attempts of the previous private owner selling to the Chinese.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 10:42 pm)
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(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:34 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:42 pm)
QUOTE
I haven't read about any initial Japanese sale of the island to China.  Link?

Not a sale by the government;  the Japanese government objected to private sale to the Chinese.

Right, I am just not aware of any actual attempts of the previous private owner selling to the Chinese.

They at least threatened to sell, which was when they made a big deal about having given the Japanese government the right of first refusal and were now forced to entertain Chinese offers.  I don't think they expected it to turn out quite the way it did.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 11:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:49 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 10:42 pm)
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(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:34 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:42 pm)
QUOTE
I haven't read about any initial Japanese sale of the island to China.  Link?

Not a sale by the government;  the Japanese government objected to private sale to the Chinese.

Right, I am just not aware of any actual attempts of the previous private owner selling to the Chinese.

They at least threatened to sell, which was when they made a big deal about having given the Japanese government the right of first refusal and were now forced to entertain Chinese offers.  I don't think they expected it to turn out quite the way it did.

Link, please?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 11:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 11:02 pm)
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(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:49 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 10:42 pm)
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(big_load @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:34 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:42 pm)
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I haven't read about any initial Japanese sale of the island to China.  Link?

Not a sale by the government;  the Japanese government objected to private sale to the Chinese.

Right, I am just not aware of any actual attempts of the previous private owner selling to the Chinese.

They at least threatened to sell, which was when they made a big deal about having given the Japanese government the right of first refusal and were now forced to entertain Chinese offers.  I don't think they expected it to turn out quite the way it did.

Link, please?

Sorry, I heard that on the radio back in September.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 11:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The islands were China's frontier off-shore defence against wokou (Japanese pirates) during the Ming and Qing dynasties (1368–1911). A Chinese map of Asia, as well as a map compiled by a Japanese cartographer[25] in the 18th century,[24] shows the islands as a part of China.



Wikipedia


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 12:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"I have a friend that works for Halliburton, he's in Malaysia, and they are aggressively working the South China Sea (for oil). That would be like China setting up in Jamaica and aggressively working the Caribbean."

Like off Cuba?
http://www.cubastandard.com/wp-cont....NPC.jpg

"Chinese oil company signs offshore agreement
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After at least two years of ‘false alarms’ from U.S. politicians about Chinese oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico, Chinese state oil company CNPC on June 5 agreed to contract five blocks in Cuban waters.

Chinese involvement in offshore drilling in Cuba near U.S. waters is a politically sensitive issue in Washington.

CNPC will expand cooperation with CubaPetróleo (Cupet) in “exploring and developing new onshore and offshore oil blocks in Cuba,” CNPC said in a terse press release, without providing any details...."

http://www.cubastandard.com/2011....reement

And to be clear there's a world of difference between a private company such as Halliburton and a state owned company such as CNPC.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well you aided with the point there. "Chinese involvement in offshore drilling in Cuba near US waters is a politically sensitive issue in Washington".

So, might not US involvement in drilling for oil in the South China Sea be a politically sensitive issue in Beijing?


China has been responding to US aggression. There's a reason why the Chinese increased their military expenditures as sharply as they have in the last decade.


And no, there is no difference in the end. The US military have been used to protect US corporate interests while they are exploiting other nations natural resources abroad for a very long time.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I look forward to a strong and prosperous China... alongside a strong and prosperous USA, Japan, India, EU, Russia, Brazil and South Africa.

I didn't care for the 'bi-polar' (USA-USSR) world of the last century -- too much 'zero sum game' mentality and too much tit for tat -- not to mention too many 'proxy' wars between the two.

As for the last two decades, I am frankly embarrassed by the arrogance we've shown -- as the world's sole top dog.

I'd much prefer a world with ten or so major countries or regions that find it more profitable to trade with each other, than making war or carving out spheres of influence.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yep. I agree.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

China Could Be Spending More On Its Military Than The US By 2035
Sam Ro | Jan. 7, 2013, 7:33 PM | 1,113 | 3

China's military budget has been exploding and could soon pass the US military budget in just over two decades.
From a recent research note published by Societe Generale:
Growing dispute with China and its neighbours...
China’s military spending is expected to have increased from around $20 billion in 2002 to at least $120bn in 2011. According to the research institute SIPRI, the country could surpass the US in total military spending by 2035, raising concerns in the US and southeast Asian countries. Last year, conflict over disputed islands caused Japan’s exports to China to fall sharply (-14.5% in November), increasing Japan’s trade deficit. The election of a new government with a more nationalist position in Japan could put the Sino- Japanese relationship under further strain. With the US Pivot preventing any large military actions in the region, the conflicts could take the form of trade wars that would damage Japan’s weak economy.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-m....2aiCFuV


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