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Topic: Allow DNA gathering during booking?, Government Overreach?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 2:09 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"...The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear arguments this week about whether law enforcement officials have a constitutional right to collect DNA after an arrest and before a person has been convicted of a crime. The argument in favor of this practice holds that it is no different than fingerprinting during a booking procedure. But DNA furnishes much more information than the fingerprint's simple ID and thus raises a range of issues about whether gathering a sample upon arrest would violate the Fourth Amendment's prohibition against "unreasonable searches and seizures....."

http://news.yahoo.com/editori....04.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 2:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Totally unreasonable. It's sad that it's even being discussed.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 2:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 26 2013, 11:12 am)
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Totally unreasonable. It's sad that it's even being discussed.

Is that also how you judge finger printing? What about the taking of a photograph? (mugshot).

LIke a photograph or fingerprinting a cheek swab isn't an invasive medical procedure so with DNA, restricted to sequencing for identification purposes and it's a variation on a digitized fingerprint, except offering a far higher degree of accuracy.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 2:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have no issue with mouth swabbing a person in custody, or collecting their hair off the linens.  If they are bleeding, the bandages could be sent to the lab.  Booking a suspect is a process of identification, and if that information leads to a conviction or a release, so be it.  Too many folks have been convicted wrongly, and the DNA evidence later has proven their innocence.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 2:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Feb. 26 2013, 2:30 pm)
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I have no issue with mouth swabbing a person in custody, or collecting their hair off the linens.  If they are bleeding, the bandages could be sent to the lab.  Booking a suspect is a process of identification, and if that information leads to a conviction or a release, so be it.  Too many folks have been convicted wrongly, and the DNA evidence later has proven their innocence.  

What sets them free is the DNA at the crime scene. They don't need to have their DNA extracted against their will for DNA to set the innocent free.

If all dna evidence is destroyed if the person is not convicted, then it isn't much different from fingerprints.  

Of course, unlike fingerprints, DNA can be easily planted at a crime scene, by a perp or the police.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I would say not until  conviction

Not without a warrant

State needs to prove need since you cannot unring that bell once you are in the system


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Feb. 26 2013, 12:04 pm)
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I would say not until  conviction

Not without a warrant

State needs to prove need since you cannot unring that bell once you are in the system

How do you differentiate a dna sample from a fingerprint sample?

I do find the entire concept of a record for people who have NOT been convicted at a trial (or pled out) a bit of a problem but yet they do exist: fingerprints and photographs of those simply "booked", with guilt never having been needed to be established for those to be kept and used in the future as far as I know anyway...
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Feb. 26 2013, 11:51 am)
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(ol-zeke @ Feb. 26 2013, 2:30 pm)
QUOTE
I have no issue with mouth swabbing a person in custody, or collecting their hair off the linens.  If they are bleeding, the bandages could be sent to the lab.  Booking a suspect is a process of identification, and if that information leads to a conviction or a release, so be it.  Too many folks have been convicted wrongly, and the DNA evidence later has proven their innocence.  

What sets them free is the DNA at the crime scene. They don't need to have their DNA extracted against their will for DNA to set the innocent free.

If all dna evidence is destroyed if the person is not convicted, then it isn't much different from fingerprints.  

Of course, unlike fingerprints, DNA can be easily planted at a crime scene, by a perp or the police.

When a person has failed to have been convicted their fingerprint record etc. is completely destroyed? Or am I misinterpreting the section I bolded?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 6:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am not a fan of anything being "collected" assuming that you have identification

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 10:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have no issue with collecting ID material during booking because the person may escape before trial but ALL such collected materials should be destroyed if the person is found innocent.

The military still has my fingerprints 30 years after discharge but I believe they should have been destroyed upon my honorable completion of military service.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 10:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In the event of no conviction the material is destroyed per the law.

"Maryland, backed at the court by all the states, the District of Columbia and the Obama administration, allows the collection of DNA samples from those arrested for, but not yet convicted of, a crime of violence, an attempted crime of violence, a burglary or an attempted burglary. If the arrest does not lead to a conviction, the sample is supposed to be destroyed"

http://m.washingtonpost.com/politic....0000205
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 7:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Feb. 26 2013, 1:51 pm)
QUOTE
What sets them free is the DNA at the crime scene. They don't need to have their DNA extracted against their will for DNA to set the innocent free.

If all dna evidence is destroyed if the person is not convicted, then it isn't much different from fingerprints.  

Of course, unlike fingerprints, DNA can be easily planted at a crime scene, by a perp or the police.

Police have been taking blood from DUI suspects for years.

About as good as doing a swab in the mouth, no?

And photos and fingerprints are not expunged from official records unless that person actually has that done through the courts.....if he is innocent, of course.

Planting DNA?

Like in rape kit planting?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 11:03 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 26 2013, 2:25 pm)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 26 2013, 11:12 am)
QUOTE
Totally unreasonable. It's sad that it's even being discussed.

Is that also how you judge finger printing? What about the taking of a photograph? (mugshot).

LIke a photograph or fingerprinting a cheek swab isn't an invasive medical procedure so with DNA, restricted to sequencing for identification purposes and it's a variation on a digitized fingerprint, except offering a far higher degree of accuracy.

We already use fingerprinting and photographs for identification, so why do we need DNA? Unless, of course, someone has removed their fingerprints by burning, etc.

Why limit the database to those arrested? As good citizens, we should all submit our DNA to make crime scene investigation easier, er, I mean to help us win the War on Terror.

FWIW, I also believe fingerprint/photographs should automatically be removed from the database for those cases that do not result in conviction.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 12:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 27 2013, 8:03 am)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 26 2013, 2:25 pm)
QUOTE

(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 26 2013, 11:12 am)
QUOTE
Totally unreasonable. It's sad that it's even being discussed.

Is that also how you judge finger printing? What about the taking of a photograph? (mugshot).

LIke a photograph or fingerprinting a cheek swab isn't an invasive medical procedure so with DNA, restricted to sequencing for identification purposes and it's a variation on a digitized fingerprint, except offering a far higher degree of accuracy.

We already use fingerprinting and photographs for identification, so why do we need DNA? Unless, of course, someone has removed their fingerprints by burning, etc.

Why limit the database to those arrested? As good citizens, we should all submit our DNA to make crime scene investigation easier, er, I mean to help us win the War on Terror.

FWIW, I also believe fingerprint/photographs should automatically be removed from the database for those cases that do not result in conviction.

DNA is a far more reliable method of identification than either a photograph of a person's very changeable appearance or fingerprints which are often either entirely absent from a crime scene or poorly recorded.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 10:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why is it that we fight the advance of science so hard??

DNA is a reliable method to identify and stop serial killers and rapists.  I have never thought it was any kind of an intrusion that my fingerprints were collected and archived by the military and the FBI during my Navy days.

What about the chilling effect it would have for potential killers and rapists to know that their DNA is on file and will be matched if they kill or rape?  Do we really want to protect the identity of killers and rapists??

I certainly hope that the Supreme Court agrees with my view point.  We need all the help we can get to diminish violence in America.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 28 2013, 7:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
I have never thought it was any kind of an intrusion that my fingerprints were collected and archived by the military and the FBI during my Navy days.

Bolding the relevant part... You don't have a problem with the fact your prints have been kept on file and will be even after you die?
If not, and along with
QUOTE
DNA is a reliable method to identify and stop serial killers and rapists.

are you saying that everyone should be printed and DNA sampled?

Maybe at birth just in case they might commit a crime at some point in their life. That's a major move from innocent until proven guilty to guilty until proven innocent. But hey, it goes right along with a national ID  and empowering the law to ask us for our papers. :angry:


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 28 2013, 3:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Having your picture, or fingerprints, or DNA on file has absolutely nothing to do with being guilty or innocent of anything, much less being guilty of a violent crime.

Your participation in the violent crime determines your guilt, not the fact that you can be successfully identified as taking part in said crime.

You are just as much presumed innocent as ever, untill the prosecution provides the documented facts of how and where the sample of your DNA was collected.  Your defense attorney gets the same opportunities to show how and where the evidence has been manipulated or falsified, and a jury still has to be persuaded that you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, just much more reliable information than eye witnesses and personal alibis.  IMHO, of course.

It won't be all that long until everyone has a bio chip for personal ID and health care history anyway, probably should throw in DNA too.Works good for my dog, why should we be deprived??

The troglydites never want to move on to new science and the freedom it brings with it.  They prefer to go back to burning witches, instead.  

Isn't this already what we do with special operators like the Seal Teams??


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2013, 10:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So much for the fourth and fifth amendments.....

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2013, 3:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Since fingerprints do not violate the fifth neither would a dna sequence.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 02 2013, 6:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am beginning to see a pattern.  Right wing gun nuts identify with and want to protect violent criminals, especially if they happen to rape and kill women.

No wonder they don't want sensible improvements of gun safety to make guns less deadly in the hands of a mass killer.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 03 2013, 8:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Mar. 02 2013, 5:50 pm)
QUOTE
I am beginning to see a pattern.  Right wing gun nuts identify with and want to protect violent criminals, especially if they happen to rape and kill women.

No wonder they don't want sensible improvements of gun safety to make guns less deadly in the hands of a mass killer.

Lets not forget their weird sense of entitlement.

They scream bloody murder when the government wants to control their gun collection but cheer until their throats hurt when they hear the idea of the government wanting everyone to own a gun, no matter what.

Oh the irony.....irony.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 03 2013, 9:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

"If you want my DNA, you'll have to pry it from my dead, cold fingers."

I like it.  Kinda catchy.


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