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Panhandler 
Group: Members
Posts: 267
Joined: Aug. 2011
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:42 pm |
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Insist That People Coexisted With Dinosaurs…and Get an A in Science Class!
—By Dana Liebelson
| Tue Feb. 19, 2013 3:02 AM PST
A T-Rex, Oklahoma, and the unfortunate fate of Charles Darwin. Todd Shoemake/ShutterStock and WikiMedia Commons
UPDATE: On February 19, HB1674 passed through the Oklahoma Common Education committee on a 9-8 vote.
In biology class, public school students can't generally argue that dinosaurs and people ran around Earth at the same time, at least not without risking a big fat F. But that could soon change for kids in Oklahoma: On Tuesday, the Oklahoma Common Education committee is expected to consider a House bill that would forbid teachers from penalizing students who turn in papers attempting to debunk almost universally accepted scientific theories such as biological evolution and anthropogenic (human-driven) climate change.
Gus Blackwell, the Republican state representative who introduced the bill, insists that his legislation has nothing to do with religion; it simply encourages scientific exploration. "I proposed this bill because there are teachers and students who may be afraid of going against what they see in their textbooks," says Blackwell, who previously spent 20 years working for the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. "A student has the freedom to write a paper that points out that highly complex life may not be explained by chance mutations."
These bills are "a kind of code for people who are opposed to teaching climate change and evolution."
Stated another way, students could make untestable, faith-based claims in science classes without fear of receiving a poor mark.
HB 1674 is the latest in an ongoing series of "academic freedom" bills aimed at watering down the teaching of science on highly charged topics. Instead of requiring that teachers and textbooks include creationism—see the bill proposed by Missouri state Rep. Rick Brattin—HB 1674's crafters say it merely encourages teachers and students to question, as the bill puts it, the "scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses" of topics that "cause controversy," including "biological evolution, the chemical origins of life, global warming, and human cloning."
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Eric Meikle, education project director at the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) in Oakland, California, says Oklahoma has proposed more anti-evolution legislation than any other state, introducing eight bills with academic freedom language since 2004. (None has passed.) "The problem with these bills is that they're so open-ended; it's a kind of code for people who are opposed to teaching climate change and evolution," Meikle says.
HB 1674 goes further than a companion bill under consideration in the state Senate by explicitly protecting students, teachers, and schools from being penalized for subscribing to alternative theories. It does, however, say that children may still be tested on widely accepted theories such as anthropogenic climate change. "Students can't say because I don't believe in this, I don't want to learn it," Blackwell says. "They have to learn it in order to look at the weaknesses."
"An extremely high percentage of scientists will tell you that evolution doesn't have scientific weaknesses," says the NCSE's Meikle. "If every teacher, parent, and school board can decide what to teach on their own, you're going to have chaos. You can't deluge kids with every theory that's ever been considered since the beginning of time."
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo....-change
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Montecresto
Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 3:59 pm |
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Nice. All religious fundamentalists pose a threat, not just Muslim fundies.
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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WalksWithBlackflies
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Group: Members
Posts: 8754
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 4:00 pm |
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I don't see the problem with questioning established theories. If a student submits a well-written and well-researched report, he deserves a good grade. If he merely says natural selection doesn't exist because the Bible says so, he deserves an F.
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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Ben2World
Group: Members
Posts: 23915
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 4:00 pm |
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Gee, I wonder who are the people pushing this bill? Atheists? Wiccans? Buddhists? No, they are CHRISTIANS!!
As a Christian, I feel both embarrassed and sad. Christianity as a religion and a philosophy (teaching a way of life) brings much good to our world. But Christianity isn't science. And shoehorning Christianity as the last word in Science (and every other subject) will only discredit both the religion and its followers!
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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -- St. Augustine
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Montecresto
Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 4:10 pm |
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(Ben2World @ Feb. 26 2013, 4:06 pm)
QUOTE
(Montecresto @ Feb. 26 2013, 12:59 pm)
QUOTE Nice. All religious fundamentalists pose a threat, not just Muslim fundies. I would like to say all fundamentalists (meaning extremists) pose a threat -- not just the religious ones.
I can go with that.
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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| Post Number: 8
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WalksWithBlackflies
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Group: Members
Posts: 8754
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 4:19 pm |
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(Montecresto @ Feb. 26 2013, 4:08 pm)
QUOTE It can't be supported by good research and good writing...
That's what they said about challenges to Newtonian physics.
Can you please list the scientific theories that are beyond reproach? Is it only limited to evolution and MMGW? How about general relativity? The cause of ulcers?
QUOTE it will take the bible which doesn't qualify as scientific research material
Then they deserve an F, which I stated before.
It was only the author's interpretation that "Stated another way, students could make untestable, faith-based claims in science classes without fear of receiving a poor mark". Or is it wrong to question her as well?
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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Old Frank
Group: Members
Posts: 624
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 4:46 pm |
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Argue that a footprint (amongst dinosauer footprints) has human characteristics*, and do it well with anatomical references, you get an A+.
Argue the footprint must be human because the bible says humans were here, you get an F.
(* done a few years ago at Glen Rose Texas....turned out later the human-like print was a dino-print that had been "re-worked" by some folk).
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My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
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| Post Number: 10
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Gabby
Group: Members
Posts: 5492
Joined: Jun. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 5:45 pm |
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Where is the corresponding right to question beliefs that are entirely unsupported by evidence? You know, without someone questioning your morality or insinuating that you are being "unfair" or "rude"?
As most everyone here has observed, science does not need such protections, at least from "argument from evidence" (not "argument from belief" or "argument from authority"). As far as belief goes, you are certainly entitled to your personal beliefs, and should not be subject to discrimination for expressing them, but you should not be entitled to carte blanche to state them without challenge or to "advertise" them as truth without any support of evidence whatsoever.
Only religion requires the kind of protection that law provides against discrimination. (It goes without saying, however, that those without religion should be recognized as having the same protections, though that obvious addendum seems to have much more difficulty with general support.)
I have no problem at all with such protections of belief, but once those beliefs travel out into the public (ETA: meaning: "the realm of open public discussion"), they should absolutely be "fair game".
As far as attacks on science go, I believe the one recognized recently in another thread is much more direct and effective, since it clearly states the objective of all of these laws, however poorly conceived: kill "critical thinking" and knowledge based on evidence and proof, because that is a threat to "belief" - even though our Constitution has clear protections for belief, however unevenly observed by most.
Krugman notes that Texas GOP tried to limit teaching of critical thinking
Every student in every school grade should be given the tools of critical thinking, or, as Carl Sagan calls them, "a baloney detection kit". Every student, and every citizen, should have the tools required to protect themselves from every sort of huckster, whether that comes from science, advertising, or "philosophy". A couple of chapters from Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World" would be a good starting place.
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"I wouldn't even know how to begin to find the 'peyote lady', even if I thought it was possible in this incarnation...I'm completely tripped out on everyday life."
"By the way: where am I?"
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Montecresto
Group: Members
Posts: 1874
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 7:34 pm |
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Feb. 26 2013, 4:19 pm)
QUOTE
(Montecresto @ Feb. 26 2013, 4:08 pm)
QUOTE It can't be supported by good research and good writing... That's what they said about challenges to Newtonian physics. Can you please list the scientific theories that are beyond reproach? Is it only limited to evolution and MMGW? How about general relativity? The cause of ulcers? QUOTE it will take the bible which doesn't qualify as scientific research material Then they deserve an F, which I stated before. It was only the author's interpretation that "Stated another way, students could make untestable, faith-based claims in science classes without fear of receiving a poor mark". Or is it wrong to question her as well?
I was trying to say that humans existing along side dinasours can't be proven with "good research and good writing".
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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Ecocentric
Group: Members
Posts: 3835
Joined: Jun. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 9:18 pm |
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Oklahoma, where the wind goes whistling through young minds.
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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Lamebeaver
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Group: Members
Posts: 16221
Joined: Aug. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 11:32 am |
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What's the big deal. Everyone knows humans and dinosaurs DID exist at the same time. There's even photographic evidence to prove it!
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| Post Number: 18
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Drift Woody
Group: Members
Posts: 5302
Joined: Feb. 2006
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 12:01 pm |
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The human in that photo is quite obviously CGI 
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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
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| Post Number: 19
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markinOhio
Group: Members
Posts: 354
Joined: Feb. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 2:15 pm |
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Is there really any controversy? These guys have evidence!
http://www.icr.org/men-dinosaurs/
Which of you commie pinko anti-god liberals can PROVE that dinosaurs and humans did not coexist?
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Old Frank
Group: Members
Posts: 624
Joined: Sep. 2007
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 5:15 pm |
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Ref. proving men/dino's didn't co-exist.
As Medicine Man to my son's pre-school Indian Guides years ago, I introduced them to our tribe mascot, Henry the Invisible Flea.
I poured Henry out of his home, a band-aid can, onto a sheet of paper I held in my hand. I proclaimed that, as Medicine Man, I was able to see Henry.
By skidding my thumb underneath the sheet, I could produce clicking sounds which, I told the kids, was Henry hopping across the paper. I even had Henry do backflips.
The kids leaned forward, intensely listening and looking, convinced that Henry did exist.....except for 1 little doubter.
He asked "How do we know he's invisible?".
I said "Look very hard"....they all leaned even closer.
"Can you see him?", I asked.
"No", they answered in chorus.
"Well, that proves he's invisible", I said.
They all, including the former doubter, nodded their heads in agreement.
The Creation Scientists have mastered the "Henry the Flea" logic.
(and, Yes, I am still a little embarassed for telling such a whopper to them).
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My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
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EastieTrekker
Group: Members
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mar. 2012
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Posted on: Feb. 27 2013, 5:40 pm |
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(Old Frank @ Feb. 27 2013, 5:15 pm)
QUOTE Ref. proving men/dino's didn't co-exist.
As Medicine Man to my son's pre-school Indian Guides years ago, I introduced them to our tribe mascot, Henry the Invisible Flea.
I poured Henry out of his home, a band-aid can, onto a sheet of paper I held in my hand. I proclaimed that, as Medicine Man, I was able to see Henry.
By skidding my thumb underneath the sheet, I could produce clicking sounds which, I told the kids, was Henry hopping across the paper. I even had Henry do backflips.
The kids leaned forward, intensely listening and looking, convinced that Henry did exist.....except for 1 little doubter.
He asked "How do we know he's invisible?".
I said "Look very hard"....they all leaned even closer.
"Can you see him?", I asked.
"No", they answered in chorus.
"Well, that proves he's invisible", I said.
They all, including the former doubter, nodded their heads in agreement.
The Creation Scientists have mastered the "Henry the Flea" logic.
(and, Yes, I am still a little embarassed for telling such a whopper to them).
Haha - I like that little fib! Have to try it on my youngest brother one of these days (his next b'day sounds like the perfect opportunity, muahhaha!!
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice. 
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
