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Topic: Research Animals Lost in Wolf Hunts Near Yellowsto< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:41 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Since wolfs are a particularly hot topic, thought this might be of some interest;

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012....owstone


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 11:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

New York Times does decent wide ranging articles on stuff a long ways from Manhattan. Good for them.

As some in the comments mentioned, it sure looks from the numbers like the gps tracker system has been hacked. Though if it had been wouldn't the collared animal be the Judas Wolf left alive to betray it's fellows repeatedly to the shooters?
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 4:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wah..... Someone halfway around the world does not know the problems the local people face with the increase in wolf populations.  Much less admit that like any other top predator they need control.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 4:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 05 2013, 11:51 am)
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Though if it had been wouldn't the collared animal be the Judas Wolf left alive to betray it's fellows repeatedly to the shooters?

That would require a little to much thought.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 4:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(OverUnder @ Mar. 05 2013, 1:29 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 05 2013, 11:51 am)
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Though if it had been wouldn't the collared animal be the Judas Wolf left alive to betray it's fellows repeatedly to the shooters?

That would require a little to much thought.

And cynicism.   :;):

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Perhaps there are some uneducated locals that don't understand how ecosystems work, and delight in undermining the research of federally funded scientists.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 8:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While not condoning killing collared research animals (maybe a law specifically prohibiting that?), they were legal game animals in a legal hunting zone. Even so, the wolf hunters should have recognized the research impact in killing those animals and had the ethics not to.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 9:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(bbobb169 @ Mar. 05 2013, 2:23 pm)
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Wah..... Someone halfway around the world does not know the problems the local people face with the increase in wolf populations. áMuch less admit that like any other top predator they need control.

Wolves can and do cause problems but not the ones most anti-wolfers claim. Like the bumpersticker that says "Save 1000 elk, kill a wolf". A wolf wouldn't and couldn't kill that many even if it lived 50 years, much less in the usual liefespan of 10-12. Or that "wolves are killing all the game animals!". Wolves and prey managed to survive átogether for millions of years without killing each other off so that's not the problem. The problem is what's been added to the equation.

I like wild predators and would like to see them left alone (I abhor trophy hunting) but have no problems with killing one if it's after livestock or too near populated areas.

And BTW, humans are THE top predator. How do you propose controlling them?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 9:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Very true. They might not be "hunters" though. Deer aren't wolves its true, but in the rural country I live in, teens drive down the road and shoot deer from the truck......cause they can. If its a big buck they may run out and cut the head and take it for mounting. But they are NOT hunters.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 10:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

MLW,

I've seen stats that show wolves kill up to 22 Elk a piece per year, but do think that is high since IMO they've shown themselves [to me] to prefer moose.

I think the use of collar signals to track and kill wolves is chicken!@#$ and should come with serious financial and jail penalties. I however think the Wolf Project is getting out of hand with sometimes half a a fair sized pack being collared. Their selling collars for big donations has to stop, it is facilitating serious harassment of the animal.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Wyoming Elk harvest for 2011 was 23,189

Moose harvest 460 (87% Hunter success)

Wolves being darted and collared? Not much raises to the level of putting a couple of bullets into an animal in terms of "serious harassment" in my view. Though I would be in favor of a reporting requirement that every pursuit of an animal for the collaring program be fully documented so any prolonged chase etc. that would sum to harrassment could be monitorred and corrected (heck I have to do that for my frogs and the records are inspected by the staff veterinarians).

The one aspect of such serious impediments to monitorring and thus adequately managing the wolves? Once management fails they go back on the Endangered Species List never to be removed. Oops.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 11:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ms Denial doesn't want to see wild wolves, she wants a pet.  She should go to the zoo.

It seems that any accurate research would  need to account for the normal mortality.  You can't research something "wild" by protecting it.  If I were shooting wolves, a radio color would not impact by decision whether to shoot a wolf.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Mar. 07 2013, 8:54 am)
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MLW,

I've seen stats that show wolves kill up to 22 Elk a piece per year, but do think that is high since IMO they've shown themselves [to me] to prefer moose.

Link?
I really doubt that figure because if true, that's still only around 200-220, not 1000. Also if true, that means a pack of 10 wolves is killing 4+ elk per week, far more than they need to survive. There are extremely rare exceptions but unlike humans, predators as a rule do not kill for fun or sport.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"pet". As long as I've been aware of the environmetal movement, going back to the 60's, one thing I've understood but never been in all that much of agreement with, is the tendency to use emotional "arguments" in preference for most every other basis for conservation actions.

One note of encouragement on that front is that while some may still be romantisizing the issue there have been some very overt signs that economic benefits are becoming a bigger part of the discussion and that, to me, is a hopeful sign. There's "wild majesty" and then there's MILLIONs of dollars....

http://wyoming.sierraclub.org/WOLVES%20AND%20ECONOMICS.pdf
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

MLW: Here's a 5 year study report on the wolf elk interaction:

"Monitoring and Assessment of Wolf-Ungulate Interactions and
Population Trends within the Greater Yellowstone Area,
Southwestern Montana, and Montana Statewide"

http://www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/downloa....ons.pdf

Where, in the Executive summary (page vii), they write this:
"3 Winter elk kill rates of wolves have varied widely across southwest Montana and the
GYA, from approximately 7 to 23 elk killed per wolf during November through
April. There is little data on summer elk kill rates of wolves, but it appears that
wolves kill fewer elk during summer than during winter."

I haven't read the full report so I can't judge how good their methodology appears (though not my field anyway) but nevertheless...
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks but at 95 pages I'll have to read it later.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:57 pm)
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Thanks but at 95 pages I'll have to read it later.

:)

Though the summary was short enough to get the gist. and while on the high end of the range DC's "22" was within the report's boundaries....

ETA: But yeah, "Trust but verify" their methodology could be silly....
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 11:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Where the impacts of hunting, hunter access, and wolves have been studied simultaneously, the impacts of hunting and hunter access on elk distribution, movements, group sizes, and habitat selection have been larger
than the effects of wolves.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 7:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 07 2013, 5:06 am)
QUOTE

(bbobb169 @ Mar. 05 2013, 2:23 pm)
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Wah..... Someone halfway around the world does not know the problems the local people face with the increase in wolf populations. áMuch less admit that like any other top predator they need control.

Wolves can and do cause problems but not the ones most anti-wolfers claim. Like the bumpersticker that says "Save 1000 elk, kill a wolf". A wolf wouldn't and couldn't kill that many even if it lived 50 years, much less in the usual liefespan of 10-12. Or that "wolves are killing all the game animals!". Wolves and prey managed to survive átogether for millions of years without killing each other off so that's not the problem. The problem is what's been added to the equation.

I like wild predators and would like to see them left alone (I abhor trophy hunting) but have no problems with killing one if it's after livestock or too near populated areas.

And BTW, humans are THE top predator. How do you propose controlling them?

"10-12 years"? where did you make that up?

Try 3-5 years.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 7:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Wolves can live up to 13 years, but in the Northern Rocky Mountains (NRM) 4 years is an average liofespan."

FWS Webpages

Of course that helps explain the rapid expansion: that sort of die off means the species has to have a LOT of builtin reporductive capacity....

Probably varies by region. I doubt equilibria has been reached in the NRM given how recently the return has been....
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 7:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

the keyword in MLW's comment being "usual".

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 9:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Walkinman @ Mar. 11 2013, 4:42 pm)
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the keyword in MLW's comment being "usual".

The keyword(s) in the NWS quote I posted (couldn't copy/paste so the typos are mine) was "4 years is an average lifespan", which, by many popular arithmetics, is smack dab in the middle of your "3 - 5".


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 9:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(bbobb169 @ Mar. 05 2013, 4:23 pm)
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Wah..... Someone halfway around the world does not know the problems the local people face with the increase in wolf populations. áMuch less admit that like any other top predator they need control.

Are you saying that the human population needs to be controlled/managed, especially where it encroaches upon the breeding grounds of wolves and leads to the decimation of their food source?

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 10:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
"10-12 years"? where did you make that up?

Try 3-5 years


Depends on the source. I found ranges from 3-4 years up to 14 in the wild.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 12 2013, 12:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 11 2013, 5:14 pm)
QUOTE

(Walkinman @ Mar. 11 2013, 4:42 pm)
QUOTE
the keyword in MLW's comment being "usual".

The keyword(s) in the NWS quote I posted (couldn't copy/paste so the typos are mine) was "4 years is an average lifespan", which, by many popular arithmetics, is smack dab in the middle of your "3 - 5".


#HaveAHardTimeTakingYesForAnAnswer?

No, I understood .. was just reiterating how silly the comment from MLW was/is.

"popular arithmetics" is an oxymoron around my house. :)

MLW .... you got a source for this 14 year average lifespan?


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