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Buggyboo 
Group: Members
Posts: 1119
Joined: Feb. 2013
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:41 am |
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Since wolfs are a particularly hot topic, thought this might be of some interest;
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012....owstone
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"I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"
Charlton Heston
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High_Sierra_Fan
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 11:51 am |
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New York Times does decent wide ranging articles on stuff a long ways from Manhattan. Good for them.
As some in the comments mentioned, it sure looks from the numbers like the gps tracker system has been hacked. Though if it had been wouldn't the collared animal be the Judas Wolf left alive to betray it's fellows repeatedly to the shooters?
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bbobb169
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Posts: 674
Joined: May 2009
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Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 4:23 pm |
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Wah..... Someone halfway around the world does not know the problems the local people face with the increase in wolf populations. Much less admit that like any other top predator they need control.
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Ecocentric
Group: Members
Posts: 3844
Joined: Jun. 2009
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:54 pm |
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Perhaps there are some uneducated locals that don't understand how ecosystems work, and delight in undermining the research of federally funded scientists.
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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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| Post Number: 7
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4795
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 8:55 am |
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While not condoning killing collared research animals (maybe a law specifically prohibiting that?), they were legal game animals in a legal hunting zone. Even so, the wolf hunters should have recognized the research impact in killing those animals and had the ethics not to.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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Montecresto
Group: Members
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Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 9:06 am |
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Very true. They might not be "hunters" though. Deer aren't wolves its true, but in the rural country I live in, teens drive down the road and shoot deer from the truck......cause they can. If its a big buck they may run out and cut the head and take it for mounting. But they are NOT hunters.
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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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double cabin
Group: Members
Posts: 15428
Joined: Nov. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 10:54 am |
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MLW,
I've seen stats that show wolves kill up to 22 Elk a piece per year, but do think that is high since IMO they've shown themselves [to me] to prefer moose.
I think the use of collar signals to track and kill wolves is chicken!@#$ and should come with serious financial and jail penalties. I however think the Wolf Project is getting out of hand with sometimes half a a fair sized pack being collared. Their selling collars for big donations has to stop, it is facilitating serious harassment of the animal.
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We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.
http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=129511480442251
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39564
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 11:27 am |
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The Wyoming Elk harvest for 2011 was 23,189
Moose harvest 460 (87% Hunter success)
Wolves being darted and collared? Not much raises to the level of putting a couple of bullets into an animal in terms of "serious harassment" in my view. Though I would be in favor of a reporting requirement that every pursuit of an animal for the collaring program be fully documented so any prolonged chase etc. that would sum to harrassment could be monitorred and corrected (heck I have to do that for my frogs and the records are inspected by the staff veterinarians).
The one aspect of such serious impediments to monitorring and thus adequately managing the wolves? Once management fails they go back on the Endangered Species List never to be removed. Oops.
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pass-thru
Group: Members
Posts: 1310
Joined: Jul. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 11:37 am |
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Ms Denial doesn't want to see wild wolves, she wants a pet. She should go to the zoo.
It seems that any accurate research would need to account for the normal mortality. You can't research something "wild" by protecting it. If I were shooting wolves, a radio color would not impact by decision whether to shoot a wolf.
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39564
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:44 pm |
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"pet". As long as I've been aware of the environmetal movement, going back to the 60's, one thing I've understood but never been in all that much of agreement with, is the tendency to use emotional "arguments" in preference for most every other basis for conservation actions.
One note of encouragement on that front is that while some may still be romantisizing the issue there have been some very overt signs that economic benefits are becoming a bigger part of the discussion and that, to me, is a hopeful sign. There's "wild majesty" and then there's MILLIONs of dollars....
http://wyoming.sierraclub.org/WOLVES%20AND%20ECONOMICS.pdf
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39564
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:55 pm |
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MLW: Here's a 5 year study report on the wolf elk interaction:
"Monitoring and Assessment of Wolf-Ungulate Interactions and
Population Trends within the Greater Yellowstone Area,
Southwestern Montana, and Montana Statewide"
http://www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/downloa....ons.pdf
Where, in the Executive summary (page vii), they write this:
"3 Winter elk kill rates of wolves have varied widely across southwest Montana and the
GYA, from approximately 7 to 23 elk killed per wolf during November through
April. There is little data on summer elk kill rates of wolves, but it appears that
wolves kill fewer elk during summer than during winter."
I haven't read the full report so I can't judge how good their methodology appears (though not my field anyway) but nevertheless...
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Montanalonewolf
Group: Members
Posts: 4795
Joined: Mar. 2010
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Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:57 pm |
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Thanks but at 95 pages I'll have to read it later.
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Ignorance is curable with education. Stupidity is refusing to be educated.
Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't.
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Walkinman
A rainbow
Group: Members
Posts: 6618
Joined: Nov. 2002
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 7:00 pm |
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(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 07 2013, 5:06 am)
QUOTE
(bbobb169 @ Mar. 05 2013, 2:23 pm)
QUOTE Wah..... Someone halfway around the world does not know the problems the local people face with the increase in wolf populations. Much less admit that like any other top predator they need control. Wolves can and do cause problems but not the ones most anti-wolfers claim. Like the bumpersticker that says "Save 1000 elk, kill a wolf". A wolf wouldn't and couldn't kill that many even if it lived 50 years, much less in the usual liefespan of 10-12. Or that "wolves are killing all the game animals!". Wolves and prey managed to survive together for millions of years without killing each other off so that's not the problem. The problem is what's been added to the equation. I like wild predators and would like to see them left alone (I abhor trophy hunting) but have no problems with killing one if it's after livestock or too near populated areas. And BTW, humans are THE top predator. How do you propose controlling them?
"10-12 years"? where did you make that up?
Try 3-5 years.
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Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips
"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39564
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 7:05 pm |
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"Wolves can live up to 13 years, but in the Northern Rocky Mountains (NRM) 4 years is an average liofespan."
FWS Webpages
Of course that helps explain the rapid expansion: that sort of die off means the species has to have a LOT of builtin reporductive capacity....
Probably varies by region. I doubt equilibria has been reached in the NRM given how recently the return has been....
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Walkinman
A rainbow
Group: Members
Posts: 6618
Joined: Nov. 2002
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Posted on: Mar. 11 2013, 7:42 pm |
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the keyword in MLW's comment being "usual".
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Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips
"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
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Walkinman
A rainbow
Group: Members
Posts: 6618
Joined: Nov. 2002
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Posted on: Mar. 12 2013, 12:16 am |
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 11 2013, 5:14 pm)
QUOTE
(Walkinman @ Mar. 11 2013, 4:42 pm)
QUOTE the keyword in MLW's comment being "usual". The keyword(s) in the NWS quote I posted (couldn't copy/paste so the typos are mine) was "4 years is an average lifespan", which, by many popular arithmetics, is smack dab in the middle of your "3 - 5". #HaveAHardTimeTakingYesForAnAnswer?
No, I understood .. was just reiterating how silly the comment from MLW was/is.
"popular arithmetics" is an oxymoron around my house. 
MLW .... you got a source for this 14 year average lifespan?
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Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips
"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
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