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Topic: A DEEP CHILL JUST SHOT UP MY SPINE, Think about this alone & in silence< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 9:39 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I had to read this several times to make sure it wasn't a mistake.

Is everyone here OK with this?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs....cs.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This surprises you?   Have you never heard of the Civil War? Bloodshed and suffering  meted out by our government in a duration and scale not repeated even to this day!  But also because of it, we remain one nation at peace.

The letter seems quite reasonable to me, actually.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Pear Harbor or September 11, 2001" are very high bars to that sort if action. So there's the theoretical that Holder was asked to address and then there's the historic reality of SWAT snipers having been used to shoot American citizens without a trial any number of times as well as regular police forces doing the same with no trial.

That a local police lieutenant or captain can authorize  a citizen's shooting gives me a lot more pause as they have done so and will no doubt do so again under circumstances FAR short of Pearl Harbor or September 11, 2001. Speaking of which, a hijacked aircraft will be shot down and there will be no trial and the shoot down will be done by military assets. That's the longstanding policy from the previous administration.

Let the hijackers, foreign or citizen, crash into another skyscraper due to the lack of a trial,  committing mass murder: or?
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I cannot imagine the instance where this would be considered the best way to deal with a situation, but some arrows are best never drawn.  Having them in the quiver only tells the public what we can do in extreme situations.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 05 2013, 10:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Mar. 05 2013, 7:18 pm)
QUOTE
I cannot imagine the instance where this would be considered the best way to deal with a situation, but some arrows are best never drawn.  Having them in the quiver only tells the public what we can do in extreme situations.

As technology continues to improve, I can easily see waves of drone fighters, bombers, ships and tanks -- replacing most of their human-operated counterpart.

And should we have another civil war or insurgency -- yeah, I can see drones delivering a Sherman-style devastation to the rebels -- without need to exposing Union troops.

The danger here, of course, is that as we lessen the perceived cost of war -- we may well embroil ourselves into more of them.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 8:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In itself, the President ordering the use of a drone attack on US citizens on US soil seems plausible given the constraints that Holder outlined. Basically, in a circumstance where no American would object.

However, coupled with the recent memo stating that a few high-level executives can decide which US citizens are terrorists and eliminate them without due due process is truly chilling.

ETA: I just realized that the constraints that Holder used as an example involved attacks by foreign powers, not US citizens acting as terrorists.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 8:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Bingo buddy! That's what makes Holders comments obsured.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 9:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 8:21 am)
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ETA: I just realized that the constraints that Holder used as an example involved attacks by foreign powers, not US citizens acting as terrorists.

When reading through the actual letter (not saying that you didn't in particular), Holder really sets up the statement with almost two paragraphs explaining why it wouldn't be appropriate or even realistic to assume any sitting President would need this as a tool. But theoretically, if there was a "catastrophic attack" on the scale of Pearl Harbor or 9/11, he could imagine the use being justified.

Since the topic of the letter is using a drone on a US citizen, on US soil, I don't think Holder just had a memory lapse, in an otherwise carefully scripted response to Sen. Paul.  It seems more likely that he was trying to deliver the scale or magnitude of an event that would cause even remote justification for use of a drone in that circumstance.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 9:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Seems to me something, someone or some people in charge truly fears the american public;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Gov....ng-Guns


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 9:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 5:21 am)
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ETA: I just realized that the constraints that Holder used as an example involved attacks by foreign powers, not US citizens acting as terrorists.

While foreign invasion and terrorism were cited, Holder patently did not rule out drone response to domestic violence.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 9:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:23 am)
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Seems to me something, someone or some people in charge truly fears the american public;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Gov....ng-Guns

How about joining the conversation of the thread you started, instead of just posting more right-wing links with a one-liner above the link?

It seems to me most people here are okay with Holder's response, but you're not.  Else why start the topic?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 9:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:31 am)
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(Buggyboo @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:23 am)
QUOTE
Seems to me something, someone or some people in charge truly fears the american public;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Gov....ng-Guns

How about joining the conversation of the thread you started, instead of just posting more right-wing links with a one-liner above the link?

It seems to me most people here are okay with Holder's response, but you're not.  Else why start the topic?

IMO the article relates very well.

That's OK with me ET that others may not share my concern and your attempt at shaming me for my opinion is OK too!

I think where you and I differ is that I seek out differing opinions than mine so I can either learn more from others perspectives or have my position bolstered by flimsy rebuttals.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 9:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:45 am)
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(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:31 am)
QUOTE

(Buggyboo @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:23 am)
QUOTE
Seems to me something, someone or some people in charge truly fears the american public;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Gov....ng-Guns

How about joining the conversation of the thread you started, instead of just posting more right-wing links with a one-liner above the link?

It seems to me most people here are okay with Holder's response, but you're not.  Else why start the topic?

IMO the article relates very well.

That's OK with me ET that others may not share my concern and your attempt at shaming me for my opinion is OK too!

I think where you and I differ is that I seek out differing opinions than mine so I can either learn more from others perspectives or have my position bolstered by flimsy rebuttals.

Right.  I'm not trying to shame you man.  Fact is, you post a lot of links here daily, all with a typical slant - and then disappear from the conversation.  

Personally, I'd give the links you posted a chance if I knew you were going to use them to contribute something to the conversation.

Maybe you are interested in learning opposing opinions, and that's why you sit silent when people oppose your viewpoint.  Weird way to foster a discussion, but to each their own I guess.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 10:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:51 am)
QUOTE
Maybe you are interested in learning opposing opinions, and that's why you sit silent when people oppose your viewpoint.  Weird way to foster a discussion, but to each their own I guess.

Last personal reply ET;
I have found by not tying to instantly conceive of rebuttal, which distracts oneself from concentrating on the opposing view fully, I gain a clearer perspective of their argument.
I assimilated that outlook from the intellect Christopher Hitchens and found it enlightening.

Lastly, it seems that  most threads go off topic quickly and I refrain from chastising individuals over and over again to go back on topic so I consider that a sign the discussion has run it's course.

OK, I am moving on and thanks!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 10:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:08 am)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 8:21 am)
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ETA: I just realized that the constraints that Holder used as an example involved attacks by foreign powers, not US citizens acting as terrorists.

When reading through the actual letter (not saying that you didn't in particular), Holder really sets up the statement with almost two paragraphs explaining why it wouldn't be appropriate or even realistic to assume any sitting President would need this as a tool. But theoretically, if there was a "catastrophic attack" on the scale of Pearl Harbor or 9/11, he could imagine the use being justified.

Since the topic of the letter is using a drone on a US citizen, on US soil, I don't think Holder just had a memory lapse, in an otherwise carefully scripted response to Sen. Paul.  It seems more likely that he was trying to deliver the scale or magnitude of an event that would cause even remote justification for use of a drone in that circumstance.

Yes, I understand that... I was merely noting an observation.

To me, the DOJ memo is much more chilling. All the Holder letter added was the "US soil" detail.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 10:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Mar. 05 2013, 10:18 pm)
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I cannot imagine the instance where this would be considered the best way to deal with a situation, but some arrows are best never drawn.  Having them in the quiver only tells the public what we can do in extreme situations.

I just don't like where the archer is aiming.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 10:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 7:43 am)
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I just don't like where the archer is aiming.

Not saying this forms my entire judgment regarding the use of drones... but simply as a human being -- knowing that the archer hasn't been just aiming, but firing abroad -- I have a harder time empathizing with those now crying that the archer's aim is expanding...

Kinda similar reason why I cannot get myself to feel sorry for Cindy Sheehan.

Not referring to you personally -- but something about folks who couldn't care enough when we deliver violence unto others -- but are suddenly concerned when the same violence might hit home...

Violence begets violence.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The fascination with gadgets over substance is always, well, fascinating. A .308 delivered by good old-fashioned gunpowder and directed by a sniper scope leaves the target just as dead as a digitally encoded video fed satellite connected drone.

But Rand is getting all sweaty palmed over the one and not at all about the other? Political grandstanding at it's finest, well second maybe to the guy offering a federal law to ban President Obama from playing golf.....
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 06 2013, 10:46 am)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 7:43 am)
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I just don't like where the archer is aiming.

Not saying this forms my entire judgment regarding the use of drones... but simply as a human being -- knowing that the archer hasn't been just aiming, but firing abroad -- I have a harder time empathizing with those now crying that the archer's aim is expanding...

Kinda similar reason why I cannot get myself to feel sorry for Cindy Sheehan.

Not referring to you personally -- but something about folks who couldn't care enough when we deliver violence unto others -- but are suddenly concerned when the same violence might hit home...

Violence begets violence.

While we don't always agree, I take a similar viewpoint with respect to drones.  If we accept them for other uses, for better or worse, and whether we like it or not, we sort of condone its domestic use.

However, I still believe that the likelihood of the use of drones devolving into the kind of fantasy that is being purported by some (i.e. the US Gov't just wiping out everyday criminals, folks in opposing political camps/differing views, etc.) is extremely unlikely.

I think Sen. Paul was trying to bait for an answer that could be smeared.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

HSF - Rand Paul's letter to John Brennan referenced "lethal force, such as a drone strike".

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 06 2013, 8:15 am)
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While we don't always agree, I take a similar viewpoint with respect to drones.  If we accept them for other uses, for better or worse, and whether we like it or not, we sort of condone its domestic use.

However, I still believe that the likelihood of the use of drones devolving into the kind of fantasy that is being purported by some (i.e. the US Gov't just wiping out everyday criminals, folks in opposing political camps/differing views, etc.) is extremely unlikely.

I think Sen. Paul was trying to bait for an answer that could be smeared.

Agree -  but I wouldn't count out a "gradual" implementation...  You know, purely for surveillance... until one is fired and brings closure to a particularly dangerous crime scene... to a good round of media applause... and then...


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 8:19 am)
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HSF - Rand Paul's letter to John Brennan referenced "lethal force, such as a drone strike".

I wasn't referring to any comments by Brennan, just the reposnse AG Holder sent to Sen. Paul in response to his being asked about drones. A request whose response (which Holder is obligated to give a Senator in their oversight capacity) Paul clearly intended to use for some grandstanding. And beyond that to people who pronounce "drone" with fear and loathing.. routinely confusing unarmed remotely operated surveillance aircraft with armed military remote operated vehicles, while apparently being oblivious to the fact that lethal force from a  distance is already occurring in the United States under the regulations containing for sniper rifle fire, or anti-aircraft missile fire for that matter (civilian airliners that have been hijacked). But then ".308" doesn't have the same Terminator ring... Talk about domestic "lethal force" you don't get more lethal than a few AIM-120C Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles blowing apart a 727!
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 06 2013, 11:15 am)
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However, I still believe that the likelihood of the use of drones devolving into the kind of fantasy that is being purported by some (i.e. the US Gov't just wiping out everyday criminals, folks in opposing political camps/differing views, etc.) is extremely unlikely.

Would you be so dismissive if someone like Cheney was President?

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 06 2013, 9:23 am)
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Seems to me something, someone or some people in charge truly fears the american public;

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Gov....ng-Guns

The DHS does either fear a mass invasion of the "homeland" (sounds more like the Weimar Republic, than the US, maybe) or a mass uprising of Americans considering their recent domestic arms contracts and their acquisition of 1.5 B 40 caliber hollow points. And those rounds are banned in the Geneva convention so...............

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Every time a senator or congressman or sheriff or judge or etc., etc., etc., have the balls to point out further government abuse, intrusion of civil liberties and violations to or potential violations to American basic constitutional rights, they are grandstanding!!!! None of these people EVER really believe and truly are concerned of what they speak.

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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 06 2013, 11:22 am)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 8:19 am)
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HSF - Rand Paul's letter to John Brennan referenced "lethal force, such as a drone strike".

I wasn't referring to any comments by Brennan, just the reposnse AG Holder sent to Sen. Paul in response to his being asked about drones. A request whose response (which Holder is obligated to give a Senator in their oversight capacity) Paul clearly intended to use for some grandstanding.

Did you read the Holder letter? It quotes Rand Paul's original question, which referenced "lethal force, such as a drone strike"... not just drone strikes. It's the media that latched onto the drones.

And yes, I have no doubt that Paul is grandstanding. I think that most US citizens knew the answer before the question was asked. The Holder letter just confirms it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So it's the contention that Paul in HIS press release: " fright" is NOT about the use of armed drones?

Uh uh: ""The U.S. Attorney General's refusal to rule out the possibility of drone strikes on American citizens and on American soil is more than frightening—it is an affront the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans," the senator said in a statement."

I'm far more affronted this person is a United States Senator eating off my hard earned tax dollars.

ETA: Oh and that's all he's "affronted" about in HIS entire  press release.:
http://paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=724

While the section Paul quoted from Holder used the term "lethal force" and NOT "drones", Paul specifically used, wait for it, DRONES in his press release of effrontery. His press release to the media.

Within which is buried the tidbit Brennan responded that the CIA is not authorized for any such thing.

"Sen. Paul also received a letter in response from Mr. Brennan, clarifying the CIA does not have the power to authorize such operations."
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 11:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Mar. 06 2013, 11:26 am)
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(EastieTrekker @ Mar. 06 2013, 11:15 am)
QUOTE
However, I still believe that the likelihood of the use of drones devolving into the kind of fantasy that is being purported by some (i.e. the US Gov't just wiping out everyday criminals, folks in opposing political camps/differing views, etc.) is extremely unlikely.

Would you be so dismissive if someone like Cheney was President?

Fair question - and as much as I don't like the guy, I think I would still be just as dismissive.

Now, that's easy to say since he is not President (and based on my leanings I would not be happy with him in that role), yet I would maintain my statement because I believe even someone like Cheney, would be able to imagine the repercussions, if even a minority of the population found the first "domestic drone strike" questionable.

So whether a president should withhold this tool based on moral grounds, or simply for self-perseverance/reputation or even fear of retaliation domestically, I still think even our own president (whoever that may be at the time) would recognize the pitfalls as using drones in that manner.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 12:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

When I saw this I figured it was the usual "Look what Obama's up to!" crap from the right, and I don't believe I'm far wrong on that "pre-observation", 'cause where was all the angst from the right when Bush was allowing people to be picked up on the streets and shipped to Syria for “questioning”? Huh? Well, you guys were busy doing something else back then.

It is never a good thing to give any President, left or right, powers that extend his capacities beyond what seems safe from the viewpoint of those living in a democratic republic, and who wish to continue the freedoms they have, as well as protect those of others in the world. Once given, any leader finds them hard to relinquish. Don’t ever give what you may want back under different circumstances. The “Patriot Act” is still in effect. I just read an article by a librarian about necessary safeguards all librarians must still take in order to protect the privacy of their patrons and avoid going to jail because of the onerous provisions of that law.

Well, I too have the same concerns about the direction we're going in terms of surveillance, but I'm not, I don't think, nearly as paranoid about this being the government "out to get us". Why, for instance, isn't there similar concern - and an even deeper chill - about the things that corporate marketing and sales are doing to, essentially, poison us with "manufactured food"? Yeah, it's not - as any non-gun-nut would agree, quite as dramatic as a sudden and traumatic attack where lots of folks die, but it has the same effect over time. “Designer food” that is not good for humans, does not even satisfy hunger, but actually stimulates hunger (read “addiction”) is a chilling idea from some of our biggest processed food manufacturers. Soylent green, here we come!

However, if you really want a chill, think about this: I was watching an old favorite Sydney Pollack movie this last week, "Three Days of the Condor", that just happened to be on as I was spinning the channels past. I just caught a bit of it, then moved on - I know the movie well and don't need much to remember it.

The movie itself is chilling, simply based on its content (an "exposé" of the repugnant underbody of our country's more secretive elements and their less than legitimate agendas and justifications), but there's yet another level involving contention in at least some quarters that there is a whole genre of movies like this that, posed as “representational” of some set of events that are real, or based on events that are real, actually end up confounding things and bending the truth more than they tell anything accurate, not because they aren’t adequately accurate portrayals, but because they become the de facto truth by virtue of their public display as representation of the “real events”. Do we really remember Watergate, or do we simply remember its representation in the press or the movie version, “All The President’s Men”? In such a highly media-saturated society, this is something of a concern itself.

Anyway, “Three Days of the Condor” is a “period piece” now, almost wholly a product of the 70s and a certain 70s mindset, and it usually is more of a nostalgic trip for me. But, this time, what suddenly dawned on me while I was watching Faye Dunaway and Robert Redford speed around New York, entering and leaving public buildings, retail outlets and such, is how much the situation has changed since 1975. In some 38 years, the environment in a city is no longer one in which two such fugitives could easily evade those who wish to find them, at least in the manner portrayed in that movie. There are cameras everywhere now. Put that movie in today’s New York City, and the CIA finds you within hours, possibly minutes. You literally could not go out on the street. Mind, this is not something the government created, instituted or financed, though the government certainly has their own cameras, and the domestic drone program is merely an extension of what is already available, however “chilling” it may seem as a radical step along this continuum. We, the public, largely created the environment of massively increased surveillance that prevails in buildings and streets in cities. Yeah, a lot of it was local police too, but private enterprise created most of it. It has creeped up on us over time. We all carry movie cameras now, even in what we used to call “third world countries”. We are all on stage.

Now you can be "chilled". (But not solely because of what the government is doing...)
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 06 2013, 12:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Actually it just puts the governments domestic surveillance program a little more out in the open, as the FBI's COUNTINTELPRO was operating since the 1950's/60's/70's against assorted leftists and then its successor in the 90's/00's/present against greenies/Occupiers mostly as individuals.  What's the difference between a police harassment or even bullet vs. a missile or threat of?  From the 1800's to pre-WWII, the feds, states (via what we know now as the NG), and police went after labor and assorted leftists with lethal results in the dozens.  Seems the black rifle crowd is now increasingly on the feds radar and they are realizing satellite image driven Hellfire missile trumps assault rifle every time if it comes down to it, despite all the plastic junk that can be attached to the latter.  Eventually, the human race will likely end up baked under radioactive glass with all the nuke proliferation going on IMO, so not really a concern.

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In wildness is the preservation of the world. - Henry Thoreau
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