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Topic: Sen. Rand Paul demands end to Seattle, Drone assassinations!< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:37 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hear, hear!

"“What we’re talking about is a resolution that says, what we have been trying to get the president to say, is you can’t kill noncombatants. You can’t kill people in a cafe in Seattle,” Paul said on the floor. “That’s what we’re asking. It is blatantly unconstitutional to kill noncombatants. I can’t understand why we couldn’t get a resolution.”"

Sen. McConnell, in a rare display of American bravery, supports the Senator fom Kentucky.

http://www.rollcall.com/news....ml?pg=2
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 6:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, it didnt take him long to play the Hitler card.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 8:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hitler card??? I despise McConnell, but applaud his support in this.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 11:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

McConnell's support in what? Dragging a "pledge" out of the president to stop the Seattle coffeeshop missile attacks?

The Seattle missile attacks that aren't happenning? Remmebr this is ONLY about the Paul fantasy drone attcks within the United States.

The President, IMHO, should agree to sign that pledge the moment the two esteemed Senators publically pledge to stop beating their wives and girlfriends.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The current use of drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan.  One big disappointment I have with Obama.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Afghanistan I've less of an issue with, it's an ongoing war zone and their use does support people we have stationed on the ground in that country who are at risk. Pakistan is a lot more problamatic with what I detect being a slide (in payment no doubt for the Afghanistan effort support strikes along the border and the transportaiton corrider access) into using drones to attack what are purely Pakistani targets of interest such as the Pakistan Taliban. And being an action arm of the Pakistani ISI is not at all something I'm at all satisifed with. It may be the price for being better positioned to attack the Afghanistan Taliban in the Pakistan border areas, but that had better be monitored very closely and critically for whether it's worth it. As should the entire Afghanistran/Pakistan effort for that matter and I do detect that under the rhetoric of Karzai the United States IS reviewing that area's value in reference to it's cost.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 12:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 12:32 pm)
QUOTE
Afghanistan I've less of an issue with, it's an ongoing war zone and their use does support people we have stationed on the ground in that country who are at risk. Pakistan is a lot more problamatic with what I detect being a slide (in payment no doubt for the Afghanistan effort support strikes along the border and the transportaiton corrider access) into using drones to attack what are purely Pakistani targets of interest such as the Pakistan Taliban.

Hmmm, not sure about that claim;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....83.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 1:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 07 2013, 9:58 am)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 12:32 pm)
QUOTE
Afghanistan I've less of an issue with, it's an ongoing war zone and their use does support people we have stationed on the ground in that country who are at risk. Pakistan is a lot more problamatic with what I detect being a slide (in payment no doubt for the Afghanistan effort support strikes along the border and the transportaiton corrider access) into using drones to attack what are purely Pakistani targets of interest such as the Pakistan Taliban.

Hmmm, not sure about that claim;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....83.html

"To be bombed in your sleep? There's nothing American about that," said Paul,"...

Hmmm...
He seems to have conveniently forgotten about WWII, Viet Nam, etc.

Nothing but grandstanding from Paul, IMO.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 2:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 07 2013, 9:58 am)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 12:32 pm)
QUOTE
Afghanistan I've less of an issue with, it's an ongoing war zone and their use does support people we have stationed on the ground in that country who are at risk. Pakistan is a lot more problamatic with what I detect being a slide (in payment no doubt for the Afghanistan effort support strikes along the border and the transportaiton corrider access) into using drones to attack what are purely Pakistani targets of interest such as the Pakistan Taliban.

Hmmm, not sure about that claim;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....83.html

How so? BTW, not as much a "claim" as my opinion of the issue.

ETA: Oh and the article you linked to actually doesn't dispute any of what I wrote.

While the New York Times does:
"...That murkiness has often suited the purposes of both the C.I.A. and the Pakistani military. It allows the Americans to conduct drone strikes behind a curtain of secrecy, largely shielded from public oversight and outside scrutiny. For the Pakistanis, it allows them to play both sides: publicly condemning strikes, while quietly supporting others, like the missile attack that killed the Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud in 2009."

It's not like the ISI( or Pakistan in general) playing both sides of the game would be a new thing. IIRC Khalid Sheik Mohammad was captured by a joint ISI- American operation. http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/03/capture.tictoc/
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 2:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That's the scary thing about the Patriot act.  Once someone in the CIA, FBI, etc. labels you a "terrorist", which they can do without any trial or hearing, they can snatch you off the street, hold you incommunicado, deny all of the rights guaranteed in the constitution or now, just kill you with the push of a button.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 3:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hey, I like the fact that Rand is getting back to real filibusters instead of the pretend ones.  I hope his example becomes the norm, and maybe the Senate can get something done instead of creating thousands of non-votes on court appointments, etc.

All filibusters are BS, lets just have them be real filibusters!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 3:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Mar. 07 2013, 12:10 pm)
QUOTE
Hey, I like the fact that Rand is getting back to real filibusters instead of the pretend ones.  I hope his example becomes the norm, and maybe the Senate can get something done instead of creating thousands of non-votes on court appointments, etc.

All filibusters are BS, lets just have them be real filibusters!

Definitely, he's a tad extreme but I like that he stood up (literally) for his intentions.

Just sorry it was for such a manufactured outragepoint.

I mean the guy definitely appears to be taking the positon that on Dec. 7, 1942 the American Army and navy should have withheld fire until there was a trial of the attacking Imperial Japanese given the (possibly too) full explanation of Holder's response.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 11:12 am)
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McConnell's support in what? Dragging a "pledge" out of the president to stop the Seattle coffeeshop missile attacks?

The Seattle missile attacks that aren't happenning? Remmebr this is ONLY about the Paul fantasy drone attcks within the United States.

The President, IMHO, should agree to sign that pledge the moment the two esteemed Senators publically pledge to stop beating their wives and girlfriends.

And they should pledge that too. So your on the record for saying that weaponized drones will never be used on American citizens, here or abroad?

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 07 2013, 12:12 pm)
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The current use of drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan.  One big disappointment I have with Obama.

Bush started it, Obama expanded it and the next president will expand it further. But there's a fair share here that say not to worry, so, think about what's for dinner tonight.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:32 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 11:12 am)
QUOTE
McConnell's support in what? Dragging a "pledge" out of the president to stop the Seattle coffeeshop missile attacks?

The Seattle missile attacks that aren't happenning? Remmebr this is ONLY about the Paul fantasy drone attcks within the United States.

The President, IMHO, should agree to sign that pledge the moment the two esteemed Senators publically pledge to stop beating their wives and girlfriends.

And they should pledge that too. So your on the record for saying that weaponized drones will never be used on American citizens, here or abroad?

Frankly, and I've made this clear on numerous posts: couldn't care less about the gadget involved. .308 or Reaper: rules and regulations need to be followed. After that? Dead is dead.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't think the 12/07/41 attackers were American citizens.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:38 pm)
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I don't think the 12/07/41 attackers were American citizens.

Ah, but it WAS within the United States and Paul's issue was military force within the United States.  And Holder's response was not unless the crisis was of the Pearl harbor, September 11, 2001 magnitide of extremety. To which Paul was "affronted".

FYI: Lower Manhattan is also within the United States.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 4:37 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:32 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 11:12 am)
QUOTE
McConnell's support in what? Dragging a "pledge" out of the president to stop the Seattle coffeeshop missile attacks?

The Seattle missile attacks that aren't happenning? Remmebr this is ONLY about the Paul fantasy drone attcks within the United States.

The President, IMHO, should agree to sign that pledge the moment the two esteemed Senators publically pledge to stop beating their wives and girlfriends.

And they should pledge that too. So your on the record for saying that weaponized drones will never be used on American citizens, here or abroad?

Frankly, and I've made this clear on numerous posts: couldn't care less about the gadget involved. .308 or Reaper: rules and regulations need to be followed. After that? Dead is dead.

I know you could care less about US citizens being targeted by weaponized drones, your right, you have made that clear.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Rand Paul is concerned about the military targeting US citizens with weaponized drones, not repelling a foreign invading army.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:40 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 4:37 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:32 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 11:12 am)
QUOTE
McConnell's support in what? Dragging a "pledge" out of the president to stop the Seattle coffeeshop missile attacks?

The Seattle missile attacks that aren't happenning? Remmebr this is ONLY about the Paul fantasy drone attcks within the United States.

The President, IMHO, should agree to sign that pledge the moment the two esteemed Senators publically pledge to stop beating their wives and girlfriends.

And they should pledge that too. So your on the record for saying that weaponized drones will never be used on American citizens, here or abroad?

Frankly, and I've made this clear on numerous posts: couldn't care less about the gadget involved. .308 or Reaper: rules and regulations need to be followed. After that? Dead is dead.

I know you could care less about US citizens being targeted by weaponized drones, your right, you have made that clear.

Is there a particular part of "dead is dead" that especially confused you?

I want all pertaining rules and regulations, per our being a nation of laws, followed before ANY lethal force is used, the standard btw the Attourney General stated is the standard: no matter the shiny gadget that is the fascination de jour for yourself and the Kentucky Senator.

Whether that lethal force be a rifle bullet or an air to air missile fired at a hijacked airliner.

Oh and please don't attempt to put words in my mouth: you are just not good at it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 4:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:43 pm)
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Rand Paul is concerned about the military targeting US citizens with weaponized drones, not repelling a foreign invading army.

Then why did he not accept AG Holder's statement that ruled OUT the use of such with the exception of such extremes as a "Pear Harbor" OR a "September 11, 2001"?

"But "it is possible, I suppose to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States," Holder said. "For example, the President could conceivably have no choice but to authorize the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland in the circumstances of a catastrophic attack” like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
“Were such an emergency to arise, I would examine the particular facts and circumstances before advising the President on the scope of this authority,” said Holder.
Paul, whose office released the letter, denounced the attorney general’s comments.
"The U.S. Attorney General's refusal to rule out the possibility of drone strikes on American citizens and on American soil is more than frightening—it is an affront the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans," the senator said in a statement."

Pearl Harbor and Lower Manhattan are both " on American soil".

So the Senator from Kentucky denounces the defensive efforts of the United States armed forces on December 7, 1942?

I'm rather certain that wasn't what President Roosevelt had in mind when he stated that date would live in infamy.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 6:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If Lincoln had drones, Jeff Davis would have been a dead man.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 6:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Mar. 07 2013, 3:14 pm)
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If Lincoln had drones, Jeff Davis would have been a dead man.

Oh I expect Lincoln would have settled for a Winchester in .308 or a nice Barrett .50.... he struck me as a rather practical man all things considered.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 6:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:43 pm)
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Rand Paul is concerned about the military targeting US citizens with weaponized drones, not repelling a foreign invading army.

So, if the FBI had knowledge that Timothy McVeigh was on his way to the Oklahoma federal building with a truck full of ANFO, and they were unable to stop the vehicle after repeated attempts, you would oppose the use of deadly force to stop him from carrying out his attack?
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 7:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Mar. 07 2013, 6:29 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:43 pm)
QUOTE
Rand Paul is concerned about the military targeting US citizens with weaponized drones, not repelling a foreign invading army.

So, if the FBI had knowledge that Timothy McVeigh was on his way to the Oklahoma federal building with a truck full of ANFO, and they were unable to stop the vehicle after repeated attempts, you would oppose the use of deadly force to stop him from carrying out his attack?

You mean like using a drone to fire a missile at his truck bomb?

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 7:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 4:48 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:43 pm)
QUOTE
Rand Paul is concerned about the military targeting US citizens with weaponized drones, not repelling a foreign invading army.

Then why did he not accept AG Holder's statement that ruled OUT the use of such with the exception of such extremes as a "Pear Harbor" OR a "September 11, 2001"?

"But "it is possible, I suppose to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States," Holder said. "For example, the President could conceivably have no choice but to authorize the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland in the circumstances of a catastrophic attack” like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
“Were such an emergency to arise, I would examine the particular facts and circumstances before advising the President on the scope of this authority,” said Holder.
Paul, whose office released the letter, denounced the attorney general’s comments.
"The U.S. Attorney General's refusal to rule out the possibility of drone strikes on American citizens and on American soil is more than frightening—it is an affront the Constitutional due process rights of all Americans," the senator said in a statement."

Pearl Harbor and Lower Manhattan are both " on American soil".

So the Senator from Kentucky denounces the defensive efforts of the United States armed forces on December 7, 1942?

I'm rather certain that wasn't what President Roosevelt had in mind when he stated that date would live in infamy.

Again something like P.H. or 9/11 I would expect the military to repel with all their strength. But the military should never commit arms to American citizens.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 7:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 4:45 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:40 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 4:37 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:32 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 07 2013, 11:12 am)
QUOTE
McConnell's support in what? Dragging a "pledge" out of the president to stop the Seattle coffeeshop missile attacks?

The Seattle missile attacks that aren't happenning? Remmebr this is ONLY about the Paul fantasy drone attcks within the United States.

The President, IMHO, should agree to sign that pledge the moment the two esteemed Senators publically pledge to stop beating their wives and girlfriends.

And they should pledge that too. So your on the record for saying that weaponized drones will never be used on American citizens, here or abroad?

Frankly, and I've made this clear on numerous posts: couldn't care less about the gadget involved. .308 or Reaper: rules and regulations need to be followed. After that? Dead is dead.

I know you could care less about US citizens being targeted by weaponized drones, your right, you have made that clear.

Is there a particular part of "dead is dead" that especially confused you?

I want all pertaining rules and regulations, per our being a nation of laws, followed before ANY lethal force is used, the standard btw the Attourney General stated is the standard: no matter the shiny gadget that is the fascination de jour for yourself and the Kentucky Senator.

Whether that lethal force be a rifle bullet or an air to air missile fired at a hijacked airliner.

Oh and please don't attempt to put words in my mouth: you are just not good at it.

Who's "attempting" to put words in your mouth? Your regular sarcasm and flippant tone about the use of weaponized drones anywhere on anybody anytime is very overt in this and any thread on the subject.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 7:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 4:36 pm)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Mar. 07 2013, 6:29 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 1:43 pm)
QUOTE
Rand Paul is concerned about the military targeting US citizens with weaponized drones, not repelling a foreign invading army.

So, if the FBI had knowledge that Timothy McVeigh was on his way to the Oklahoma federal building with a truck full of ANFO, and they were unable to stop the vehicle after repeated attempts, you would oppose the use of deadly force to stop him from carrying out his attack?

You mean like using a drone to fire a missile at his truck bomb?

Does it matter?

I mean, is deadly force against American citizens only bad if it's delivered by a drone?
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 7:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

One of the problems so many international and constitutional lawyers have with the use of drones is the "collateral damage". Imagine firing a missile at T.M.'s truck full of fertilizer and diesel as he was moving down the road.

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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 07 2013, 8:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 07 2013, 7:56 pm)
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One of the problems so many international and constitutional lawyers have with the use of drones is the "collateral damage". Imagine firing a missile at T.M.'s truck full of fertilizer and diesel as he was moving down the road.

It would almost certainly have resulted in far less than 168 deaths and 680 injuries.
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