SUBSCRIBE | NEWSLETTERS | MAPS | VIDEOS | BLOGS | MARKETPLACE | CONTESTS
TRY BACKPACKER FREE!
SUBSCRIBE NOW and get
2 Free Issues and 3 Free Gifts!
Full Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Email: (required)
If I like it and decide to continue, I'll pay just $12.00, and receive a full one-year subscription (9 issues in all), a 73% savings off the newsstand price! If for any reason I decide not to continue, I'll write "cancel" on the invoice and owe nothing.
Your subscription includes 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Or click here to pay now and get 2 extra issues
Offer valid in US only.


» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

Page 1 of 212>>

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic new poll
Topic: All the Moaning and Bitching...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 4:16 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hope y'all are at least enjoying the stock market rally?   :)

--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 2
WalksWithBlackflies Search for posts by this member.
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 10262
Joined: Jun. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 4:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No, I'm not. As a new employee, I can't contribute to our 401(k) for a couple more months. When I'm finally able to buy-in, it'll cost me more.

:p  :angry:  :p


--------------
When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 3
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 4:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah, that sucks.  What kind of work do you do - WWBF?

--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 4
BillBab Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 5299
Joined: Sep. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 6:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

About time!

--------------
"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."

Thomas Sowell
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 5
hbfa Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 8300
Joined: Feb. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 6:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 08 2013, 1:16 pm)
QUOTE
Hope y'all are at least enjoying the stock market rally?   :)

And the lowest unemployment rate since 2008.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 6
hbfa Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 8300
Joined: Feb. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 6:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Mar. 08 2013, 3:09 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 08 2013, 1:16 pm)
QUOTE
Hope y'all are at least enjoying the stock market rally?   :)

And the lowest unemployment rate since 2008.

And housing is rebounding.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 7
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 6:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE



--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 8
wwwest Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6763
Joined: Dec. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 6:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The nightmare for Republicans that Rove he had to cheat in every possible way to prevent.  With a strong, growing economy the Democrats will be in power for the foreseeable future.

Yes, we can!


--------------
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 9
BillBab Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 5299
Joined: Sep. 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 08 2013, 8:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh yeah...things are peachy

Dream on


--------------
"Asking liberals where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from."

Thomas Sowell
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 10
hbfa Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 8300
Joined: Feb. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 12:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Mar. 08 2013, 5:58 pm)
QUOTE
Oh yeah...things are peachy

Dream on

Can I offer you a hanky?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 11
Old Frank Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sep. 2007
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 8:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sad commentary about our political divide, but I bet most rep cpngressfolk are wearing Sad Faces;  get a big crash, and they'll be all Happy Face again.

Well, at least the fate of our country is their second highest priority.

Voted a lot of rep in my lifetime, but I think dems are currently more patriotic.


--------------
My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 12
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6647
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 9:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Mar. 08 2013, 7:58 pm)
QUOTE
Oh yeah...things are peachy

Dream on

Compared to the situation 4 years ago it's a peach cobbler with whipped cream and a cherry on top, no thanks to the blatant obstructionism from across the aisle.

But the stock market is hardly the best barometer of economic health. Corporate profits are soaring and the major shareholders are fabulously wealthy, but notsomuch for those below the top few percent.

What's best for the poor & middle class is austerity, cutting retirement & medical benefits, and not budging another inch on taxes for millionaires -- according to "conservative" ideology.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 13
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 12:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 6:43 am)
QUOTE

(BillBab @ Mar. 08 2013, 7:58 pm)
QUOTE
Oh yeah...things are peachy

Dream on

Compared to the situation 4 years ago it's a peach cobbler with whipped cream and a cherry on top, no thanks to the blatant obstructionism from across the aisle.


Back in 2008, immediately following Obama's win, there were news reports of people stocking up on guns and ammo -- fully expecting civil unrest as they predicted the nation's slide down the drain.

My recollection is vague now, but I believe BillBab and a few others here echoed the above sentiment in their posts

Now, four years on, and with the nation finally turning the corner -- one brain dead female Republican is still predicting imminent civil unrest!  Fortunately, far fewer Americans (including Republicans) are still listening to that sort of incendiary, irresponsible, and wholly self-serving nonsense!


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 14
hbfa Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 8300
Joined: Feb. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 1:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Mar. 08 2013, 5:58 pm)
QUOTE
Oh yeah...things are peachy

Dream on

You know, I don't think anyone is suggesting that everything is perfect, Billbab.  Yet we are far from the doom and gloom you (and others here) predicted after the election in 2008.

I for one, would hope that a continued economic recovery will enable and encourage us, as a nation, to chip away at our deficit.  The deficit belongs to ALL of us, regardless of political affiliation.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 15
wwwest Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6763
Joined: Dec. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 3:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This one is worth repeating in this thread too:

Four years ago, as a newly elected president began his efforts to rescue the economy and strengthen the social safety net, conservative economic pundits — people who claimed to understand markets and know how to satisfy them — warned of imminent financial disaster. Stocks, they declared, would plunge, while interest rates would soar.

No, the important point about these particular bad predictions is that they came from people who constantly invoke the potential wrath of the markets as a reason we must follow their policy advice. Don’t try to cover America’s uninsured, they told us; if you do, you will undermine business confidence and the stock market will tank. Don’t try to reform Wall Street, or even criticize its abuses; you’ll hurt the plutocrats’ feelings, and that will lead to plunging markets. Don’t try to fight unemployment with higher government spending; if you do, interest rates will skyrocket.

And, of course, do slash Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid right away, or the markets will punish you for your presumption.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013....s&_r=1&


--------------
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 16
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 3:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't think BillBab will be coming back.   :;):

--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 17
hbfa Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 8300
Joined: Feb. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 5:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 09 2013, 12:26 pm)
QUOTE
I don't think BillBab will be coming back.   :;):

I wouldn't count the chickens too soon.
There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance...and BB is nowhere near it.  He'll carry on.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 18
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6647
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 6:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Chickens come home to roost
But it still gives BlillBab a boost
To lambast the Left
Despite the grand theft
By the Powers That Be
On the Right


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 19
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 8:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
Chickens come home to roost
But it still gives BlillBab a boost
To lambast the Left
Despite the grand theft
By the Powers That Be
On the Right

If you are talking about grand theft among politicians -- that's both sides of the aisle -- indeed, the latest on the news is Jesse Jackson, Jr. -- a major Democrat disappointment.

If you are talking about grand theft where the rich steals from what little the poor still has -- take a look at my post here.

As Mark Twain famously quipped, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.  Not saying the one table in my thread is the one that tells all -- but I find it quite fascinating -- if indeed it fairly portrays just how much taxes people of different incomes really are paying.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 20
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6647
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 9:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 09 2013, 7:03 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
Chickens come home to roost
But it still gives BlillBab a boost
To lambast the Left
Despite the grand theft
By the Powers That Be
On the Right

If you are talking about grand theft among politicians -- that's both sides of the aisle -- indeed, the latest on the news is Jesse Jackson, Jr. -- a major Democrat disappointment.

If you are talking about grand theft where the rich steals from what little the poor still has -- take a look at my post here.

As Mark Twain famously quipped, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.  Not saying the one table in my thread is the one that tells all -- but I find it quite fascinating -- if indeed it fairly portrays just how much taxes people of different incomes really are paying.

I'm talking about the crimes
Committed by pinstriped slimes
The ones at the banks
That caused our economy to tank
And get off scott-free every time

Jackson Jr is a schmuck who
In the grand scheme doesn't matter a fu**
The movers & shakers
Are the big takers
They bankroll the politicians
And make the bug bucks

Both parties soak up that dough
It puts them in office
And continues the flow
Of wealth to the top
But this, I'm sure you know

My point isn't partisan
But it's still Left versus Right
It's People versus Power
Not D's vs R's, but weak against might

Your "flat tax" chart?
It's naught but a laugh
Wealth disparity in America is the relevant graph.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 21
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 10:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 6:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 09 2013, 7:03 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
Chickens come home to roost
But it still gives BlillBab a boost
To lambast the Left
Despite the grand theft
By the Powers That Be
On the Right

If you are talking about grand theft among politicians -- that's both sides of the aisle -- indeed, the latest on the news is Jesse Jackson, Jr. -- a major Democrat disappointment.

If you are talking about grand theft where the rich steals from what little the poor still has -- take a look at my post here.

As Mark Twain famously quipped, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.  Not saying the one table in my thread is the one that tells all -- but I find it quite fascinating -- if indeed it fairly portrays just how much taxes people of different incomes really are paying.

I'm talking about the crimes
Committed by pinstriped slimes
The ones at the banks
That caused our economy to tank
And get off scott-free every time

Jackson Jr is a schmuck who
In the grand scheme doesn't matter a fu**
The movers & shakers
Are the big takers
They bankroll the politicians
And make the bug bucks

Both parties soak up that dough
It puts them in office
And continues the flow
Of wealth to the top
But this, I'm sure you know

My point isn't partisan
But it's still Left versus Right
It's People versus Power
Not D's vs R's, but weak against might

Your "flat tax" chart?
It's naught but a laugh
Wealth disparity in America is the relevant graph.

Don't be so dismissive.  I came upon that graph from an article in The Economist.  So at least worthy of some discussion.

BTW, your link didn't work.

Still, mighty poetic there, I'll give you that.   :;):


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 22
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6647
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 10:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I read The Economist for several months when my wife had a trial subscription. British, but conservative and caters to the monied interests.

Try this link:
http://mashable.com/2013/03/02/wealth-inequality/


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 23
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 10:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 7:18 pm)
QUOTE
I read The Economist for several months when my wife had a trial subscription. British, but conservative and caters to the monied interests.

Try this link:
http://mashable.com/2013/03/02/wealth-inequality/

Caters to the moneyed interest?

The Economist 'caters' to economic principles that have been shown time and time again to lift entire peoples from abject poverty to wealth.  Did you not see the second post of my tax thread -- comparing our incomes to those of the world?

The US -- thus far -- has applied the principles of capitalism more consistently -- and provided a more stable political environment than most other countries -- and the results show.  The world's "starting level rich country income" is the same level that we Americans view as poverty line!  That's our success!

Your perceived 'bias of the magazine' toward "the moneyed" is actually an affirmation of the best principles of economics we know -- if wealth building is the objective.

I think the problem with many Americans today is that they have been so successful for so long that they view the very means to success with disdain!

If we were a country like Congo or Bangladesh, then maybe we need radical solutions like class warfare.  But the United States as described?  Class warfare would be as destructive as it is nonsensical.

Where we differ -- I want to reconstruct a level playing field so anyone of sound body and mind can compete against anyone else -- but it will be up to everyone to compete hard.  You, however, seem to want a system where "equity" is handed out to everyone, regardless.  Human nature being what it is, that is just about the best way to sap the working spirit of any people.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 24
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6647
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 10:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 09 2013, 9:35 pm)
QUOTE
If we were a country like Congo or Bangladesh, then maybe we need radical solutions like class warfare.  But the United States as described? Class warfare would be as destructive as it is nonsensical.

Where we differ -- I want to reconstruct a level playing field so anyone of sound body and mind can compete against anyone else -- but it will be up to everyone to compete hard.  You, however, seem to want a system where "equity" is handed out to everyone, regardless.  Human nature being what it is, that is just about the best way to sap the working spirit of any people.

Utter BS (the part I bolded).

Class warfare is being waged and won in America -- by the rich.

The link I provided is proof.

You think you know what I want? You don't know (vulgarity for fecal matter).


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 25
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 10:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 7:48 pm)
QUOTE
Class warfare is being waged and won in America -- by the rich.

The link I provided is proof.

You think you know what I want? You don't know (vulgarity for fecal matter).


Not necessarily!  We both know the top percentile is owning increasingly huge shares of the nation's wealth.

But your "proof" would work only if the top percentage is a stagnant pool -- meaning the same few families amassing fortunes and passing them on generation to generation.

The reality is that our tiered system is actually highly dynamic and fluid.  New winners make it into the top 1% to 5% all the time!  The super rich that you so disdain -- many of them are actually success stories of former middle or even lower class members -- very recent entrants -- such as many of the semi-conductor giants!!

Class warfare waged by the rich?  Nonsense!  If it were so, it would have been an entrenched class -- which it is patently not.

Your focus, Woody, is almost entirely wrong.  Instead of attacking and perhaps even undermining our nation's success stories -- worry instead about these two looming factors:

1.  The deterioration of our public education system -- and with it our nation's future competitiveness.

2.  The formation of an entrenched lower  class -- a class mostly of discontented minorities who are not moving up the economic ladder.  This one bodes ill for our democratic society in particular.


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 26
hbfa Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 8300
Joined: Feb. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 09 2013, 11:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 3:58 pm)
QUOTE
Chickens come home to roost
But it still gives BlillBab a boost
To lambast the Left
Despite the grand theft
By the Powers That Be
On the Right

There once was a man named Billbab
Who imagined he had the gift of the gab
He constantly whined, about the liberal kind
But in the end his life was just sad
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 27
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6647
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 10 2013, 12:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Capitalism, with equal opportunity. Do you think we have that now? We don't, not even close.

Education, first and foremost. Feed young minds before feeding the MIC.

How to pay for it? Besides "starving" the MIC instead of Norquist's beast, restore tax rates from the golden era of the 1950's when Repub Ike was prez and the top bracket rate was 90%. Personal income $1b and can't get by on $100m free & clear? Cry me a river. Nobody has "earned" that much. Not even Gandhi, though he might top the list.

Pursuit of the almighty buck isn't an enlightened system, but it's been the most effective system for generating wealth. But it needs serious fixing when that wealth is extremely concentrated in few hands that can steadily rig the game in their favor by purchasing politicians and feeding the public a bunch of pablum & propaganda.

The middle class & working poor aren't declining relative to the wealthy due to lack of effort. The poor have two strikes against them to begin with while a few are born on third base, and of course they think they hit a triple.

The middle class is declining; is it because they're not trying to compete "hard" or is it because the opportunities are limited? I have a couple of good friends my age (mid 50's) who are very intelligent and have a great work ethic but lost their jobs in the recession and are still looking for work commensurate with their qualifications. I'm lucky; I've been working at the same corporation for 20 years and have risen from hourly wage to a manager reporting to a senior vice president. I make 50% more than the top hourly rate, and I earn every penny of it. My boss probably makes 3 times my salary and he earns every penny, though I doubt he's a fourth of the way to $1m annual.

The CEO/CotB head honcho of the private equity firm that bought us 3 years ago owns 5 mansions around the country. My boss (a self-proclaimed "very conservative guy") attended a meeting at the mansion in The Hamptons, and his word to describe the opulence was "obscene." We both regularly work 60 hour weeks because our management staff is perpetually understaffed and stretched thin. Three positions weren't filled because sales didn't meet expectations, but the major shareholders got theirs. My generation is either overworked or unemployed. There's plenty of work, but like wealth it's out of kilter and overly concentrated.

I've got it good, relatively speaking. My boat floats, though I'm getting worn out rowing. But too many boats are getting swamped in the wake of big yachts. It wasn't always thus, not to this extent. The huge and growing gap has more to do with an increasingly rigged game and lack of opportunity than folks simply wanting wealth "handed out" to them, as you stated.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 28
Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 26403
Joined: Jun. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 10 2013, 12:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 09 2013, 9:11 pm)
QUOTE
Capitalism, with equal opportunity. Do you think we have that now? We don't, not even close.

Education, first and foremost. Feed young minds before feeding the MIC.

No, we are not.  Read the bottom part of my post above -- about the two things we should be  worrying about.

But bashing "the rich and their class warfare" won't help in any sustainable way and might just undermine the successes that we do have.  Exactly the wrong thing to do!  Instead, we need to focus on equal opportunity -- which must begin with equal empowerment!!  THAT is where my worry lies.  I see some of the dilapidated campuses of LA Unified.  THAT's where the worry ought to be!


--------------
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 29
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6647
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 10 2013, 9:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No, "bashing" the rich and the class warfare they've been waging & winning won't change things; we need to actually do something about it. Of course, YOU are the one who indtroduced the term "class warfare" into this discussion, in reaction to the complaint about concentration of wealth at the top. But complaints are just words, while the results are plainly visible.

It's interesting and incredibly ironic you pointed to our deteriorating education system and entrenched lower class as the important focus -- because those "looming factors" are the result of the class warfare being waged by the rich.

The politicians they own and their "conservative" ideology (more to do with greed than philosophy) is focused on keeping tax shelters & low rates for the rich and feeding the MIC, while insisting the only way to dig ourselves out of this Wall Street recession is austerity for the poor and elderly. They want to solve the "fiscal crisis" by cutting food stamps, medicaid, head start programs, student loans, and by "reforming entitlements" (read: less for the sick & elderly, don't increase revenue). Teachers are the scapegoats, unions are the villains, and the minimum wage if anything is too high.

Yes, by all means let's focus on our deteriorating education system and entrenched lower class. But nothing will change if your focus is to blame them for their plight while ignoring the fact that wealth in this country has been steadily redistributed upwards to those you carry water for and whose "focus" is to keep that flow going while obstructing efforts to do something about poverty and education.

Very ironic indeed.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 30
Gabby Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6499
Joined: Jun. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 10 2013, 10:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 09 2013, 10:55 pm)
QUOTE
But your "proof" would work only if the top percentage is a stagnant pool -- meaning the same few families amassing fortunes and passing them on generation to generation.

The reality is that our tiered system is actually highly dynamic and fluid.  New winners make it into the top 1% to 5% all the time!  The super rich that you so disdain -- many of them are actually success stories of former middle or even lower class members -- very recent entrants -- such as many of the semi-conductor giants!!

Class warfare waged by the rich?  Nonsense!  If it were so, it would have been an entrenched class -- which it is patently not.
One wonders from whence you are getting that information. I'd need specific stories proving your ill-informed contention. Though I suspect that there are at least some instances of "new rich" (let's say 20%?), the influence of the wealth of the rich is overwhelming.

The rich own the education system (and everything else), to the extent that “legacy” children continue to dominate economically, as we all know. An article from your very own The Economist:
QUOTE
THE “Great Gatsby curve” is the name Alan Krueger, an economic adviser to Barack Obama, gave to the relationship between income inequality and social mobility across the generations. Mr Krueger used the phrase in a 2012 speech to describe the work of Miles Corak of the University of Ottawa, who has shown that more unequal economies tend to have less fluid societies. Mr Corak reckons that in some places, like America and Britain, around 50% of income differences in one generation are attributable to differences in the previous generation (in more egalitarian Scandinavia, the number is less than 30%).

Even that may paint too rosy a picture. Mr Corak’s work draws on recent studies that compare income levels between just two generations: fathers and sons. That is out of necessity; good data covering three or more generations are scarce. But reliance on limited data could lead to overestimates of social mobility.

A second method relies on the chance overrepresentation of rare surnames in high- or low-status groups at some point in the past. If very few Britons are called Micklethwait, for example, and people with that name were disproportionately wealthy in 1800, then you can gauge long-run mobility by studying how long it takes the Micklethwait name to lose its wealth-predicting power. In a paper written by Mr Clark and Neil Cummins of Queens College, City University of New York, the authors use data from probate records of 19th-century estates to classify rare surnames into different wealth categories. They then use similar data to see how common each surname is in these categories in subsequent years. Again, some 70-80% of economic advantage seems to be transmitted from generation to generation.
http://www.economist.com/node/21571399
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
31 replies since Mar. 08 2013, 4:16 pm < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


Page 1 of 212>>
reply to topic new topic new poll

» Quick Reply All the Moaning and Bitching...
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code



Get 2 FREE Trial Issues and 3 FREE GIFTS
Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
The Best Trails in America
YES! Please send me my FREE trial issues of Backpacker
and my 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Full Name:
City:
Address 1:
Zip Code:
State:
Address 2:
Email (required):
Free trial offer valid for US subscribers only. Canadian subscriptions | International subscriptions