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Topic: The final pricetag< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:22 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is a very interesting article.  When we started it, the predictions were for 50-60 billion.  I'm still trying to figure out what benefits we got from Iraq.

http://www.military.com/daily-n....&rank=1
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 9:09 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(beemerphill @ Mar. 15 2013, 8:22 am)
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This is a very interesting article.  When we started it, the predictions were for 50-60 billion.  I'm still trying to figure out what benefits we got from Iraq.

http://www.military.com/daily-n....&rank=1

This might be of some help Beem;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....93.html

Looks like the usual benefits; oil companies get richer, Halaburton stock gains, promised benefits for soldiers cut off; all the usual.

http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/

http://www.humanevents.com/2012....touched


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Those figures are still on the low side it seems to me. With 650,000 military declared eligible for disability the total finacial outlays will go on for sixty years and more. THAT bill is going to be unbeleivable (beyond the human cost reflected in that expenditiure).
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Iraq, the bad investment that just keeps on costing.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 1:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(beemerphill @ Mar. 15 2013, 5:22 am)
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This is a very interesting article.  When we started it, the predictions were for 50-60 billion.  I'm still trying to figure out what benefits we got from Iraq.

http://www.military.com/daily-n....&rank=1

When a full 70% of Americans supported the invasion and occupation of a country that most knew little about and cared even less -- the consequence is that we get to pay through our nose!

Was it Sherman who said that it's a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it?

I think it's A GOOD THING that we now have to struggle to find ways to pay off both interest and principal to the tune of trillions -- meaning less of everything else -- including 'park service and trail maintenance' that seem so near and dear to us folks here.

Maybe, just maybe next time around -- we can tune down our collective arrogance and ignorance -- and be less of a menace to the rest of the world.  THAT would be a very good thing!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 1:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Mar. 15 2013, 10:22 am)
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Iraq, the bad investment that just keeps on costing.

Oh, and Afghanistan too.   :;):

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 6:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Come on....you remember....we did it for cheap oil!

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 6:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 1:30 pm)
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(beemerphill @ Mar. 15 2013, 5:22 am)
QUOTE
This is a very interesting article.  When we started it, the predictions were for 50-60 billion.  I'm still trying to figure out what benefits we got from Iraq.

http://www.military.com/daily-n....&rank=1

When a full 70% of Americans supported the invasion and occupation of a country that most knew little about and cared even less -- the consequence is that we get to pay through our nose!

Was it Sherman who said that it's a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it?

I think it's A GOOD THING that we now have to struggle to find ways to pay off both interest and principal to the tune of trillions -- meaning less of everything else -- including 'park service and trail maintenance' that seem so near and dear to us folks here.

Maybe, just maybe next time around -- we can tune down our collective arrogance and ignorance -- and be less of a menace to the rest of the world.  THAT would be a very good thing!

+ 1!

Although it goes against man's nature!

If Eve did't share that damn apple everything would have been fine!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Mar. 15 2013, 3:06 pm)
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Come on....you remember....we did it for cheap oil!

I don't call $4.50 a gallon cheap !  :D

But speaking of oil... imagine if Bush just signed over $2.2 trillion to subsidize the gas pumps -- what a wonderful thing that would be -- at least until the money runs out!  Still, two hundred thousand Iraqi lives and five thousand American lives could have been spared.  I'd say that's more than a fair exchange!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 6:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 15 2013, 3:14 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 1:30 pm)
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(beemerphill @ Mar. 15 2013, 5:22 am)
QUOTE
This is a very interesting article.  When we started it, the predictions were for 50-60 billion.  I'm still trying to figure out what benefits we got from Iraq.

http://www.military.com/daily-n....&rank=1

When a full 70% of Americans supported the invasion and occupation of a country that most knew little about and cared even less -- the consequence is that we get to pay through our nose!

Was it Sherman who said that it's a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it?

I think it's A GOOD THING that we now have to struggle to find ways to pay off both interest and principal to the tune of trillions -- meaning less of everything else -- including 'park service and trail maintenance' that seem so near and dear to us folks here.

Maybe, just maybe next time around -- we can tune down our collective arrogance and ignorance -- and be less of a menace to the rest of the world.  THAT would be a very good thing!

+ 1!

Although it goes against man's nature!

If Eve did't share that damn apple everything would have been fine!

Thanks.  Actually, Genesis creation story is one of my favorite parts in the entire bible!

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 12:30 pm)
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Was it Sherman who said that it's a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it?

No, it was Robert E. Lee when Burnside foolishly sent wave after wave of Union troops uphill over an open field towards the stone walls at Marye's Heights, from which the Confederates mowed them down at the battle of Fredericksburg in December 1862.

Uncle Billy was famous for saying "War ... is all hell."

Above the bloody field of Fredericksburg as the pinned down and wounded Union troops endured a cold night on that open ground, the Aurora Borealis made a very rare appearance in the night sky of Virginia. Just a coincidence, of course.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 12:30 pm)
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I think it's A GOOD THING that we now have to struggle to find ways to pay off both interest and principal to the tune of trillions -- meaning less of everything else -- including 'park service and trail maintenance' that seem so near and dear to us folks here.

You, do, huh? You think it's A GOOD THING that our nation is deep in debt and can't afford things THAT WE SHOULD BE FUNDING ... because, why, you think an important lesson will be learned from this?

I was among the 100,000 protesting this war in the streets of Washington 4 days before it was launched; do you think all of us and the rest of the 30% (plus children born after "Shock & Awe commenced) also deserve "less of everything"??

You're painting with a broad brush, in the color of collective punishment.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Atlas shrugs!

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Buggyboo ... the mentality of Honey Boo Boo, but more annoying  :p

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 4:23 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 12:30 pm)
QUOTE
Was it Sherman who said that it's a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it?

No, it was Robert E. Lee when Burnside foolishly sent wave after wave of Union troops uphill over an open field towards the stone walls at Marye's Heights, from which the Confederates mowed them down at the battle of Fredericksburg in December 1862.

Uncle Billy was famous for saying "War ... is all hell."

Above the bloody field of Fredericksburg as the pinned down and wounded Union troops endured a cold night on that open ground, the Aurora Borealis made a very rare appearance in the night sky of Virginia. Just a coincidence, of course.

Ah, Lee.  Thank you.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 7:44 pm)
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Buggyboo ... the mentality of Honey Boo Boo, but more annoying  :p

Now is that nice Mr. Peace and Love! :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 4:35 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 12:30 pm)
QUOTE
I think it's A GOOD THING that we now have to struggle to find ways to pay off both interest and principal to the tune of trillions -- meaning less of everything else -- including 'park service and trail maintenance' that seem so near and dear to us folks here.

You, do, huh? You think it's A GOOD THING that our nation is deep in debt and can't afford things THAT WE SHOULD BE FUNDING ... because, why, you think an important lesson will be learned from this?

I was among the 100,000 protesting this war in the streets of Washington 4 days before it was launched; do you think all of us and the rest of the 30% (plus children born after "Shock & Awe commenced) also deserve "less of everything"??

You're painting with a broad brush, in the color of collective punishment.

Of course it is collective punishment -- and a terrible one.  But can you think of any less terrible but still effective method to get our leadership and all of us collectively to be truly sober when it comes to starting a war -- to do so truly as a last resort?  Because I can't think of any.  Ideally, each generation will learn from their history books, but you know how that goes...  Vietnam War isn't that long ago, most of the vets are still very much alive, and still........

And one more thing to add:  I find the current rapid progress in drones esp. worrisome.  Why?  Because it is perceived to significantly lower the risks to our soldiers.  So why is that a bad thing?

IF our leadership can be trusted to use war only as a last resort -- then yes, every invention that can help us achieve our war aims while minimizing costs would be a good thing  BUT what's more likely to transpire is that the ever-lowering cost of war (at least as perceived by our politicians) -- may well cause them to engage our country into ever more wars -- esp. the undeclared types!!  And just as most wars escalate far beyond the initial vision of our politicians -- the final price tags -- despite the inventions -- may well be even higher than if we hadn't those inventions and declared fewer wars because of higher perceived costs.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 7:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 7:49 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 4:35 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 12:30 pm)
QUOTE
I think it's A GOOD THING that we now have to struggle to find ways to pay off both interest and principal to the tune of trillions -- meaning less of everything else -- including 'park service and trail maintenance' that seem so near and dear to us folks here.

You, do, huh? You think it's A GOOD THING that our nation is deep in debt and can't afford things THAT WE SHOULD BE FUNDING ... because, why, you think an important lesson will be learned from this?

I was among the 100,000 protesting this war in the streets of Washington 4 days before it was launched; do you think all of us and the rest of the 30% (plus children born after "Shock & Awe commenced) also deserve "less of everything"??

You're painting with a broad brush, in the color of collective punishment.

Of course it is collective punishment -- and a terrible one.  But can you think of any less terrible but still effective method to get our leadership and all of us collectively to be truly sober when it comes to starting a war -- to do so truly as a last resort?  Because I can't think of any.  Ideally, each generation will learn from their history books, but you know how that goes...  Vietnam War isn't that long ago, most of the vets are still very much alive, and still........

Are we not doing the same right now to the citizens of North Korea and Iran and Iraq and Libya in the past? That to me supports Ben's view.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 15 2013, 6:47 pm)
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(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 7:44 pm)
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Buggyboo ... the mentality of Honey Boo Boo, but more annoying  :p

Now is that nice Mr. Peace and Love! :D

I believe in showing kindness to strangers, but not to spamming trolls.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 8:01 pm)
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(Buggyboo @ Mar. 15 2013, 6:47 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 7:44 pm)
QUOTE
Buggyboo ... the mentality of Honey Boo Boo, but more annoying  :p

Now is that nice Mr. Peace and Love! :D

I believe in showing kindness to strangers, but not to spamming trolls.

Thanks; for nothing!

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Buggyboo posted a lot lately (as have I).  But he participates in most of his threads.  Agree or disagree with him, Woody, but I don't see him as a spammer or a troll.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 8:11 pm)
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Buggyboo posted a lot lately (as have I).  But he participates in most of his threads.  Agree or disagree with him, Woody, but I don't see him as a spammer or a troll.

Thanks Ben!

Even though we may not agree on much, I respect your opinion and right to voice it!

BTW, I'm an anit- thiest! See, we can have morals too!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 6:49 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 4:35 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 15 2013, 12:30 pm)
QUOTE
I think it's A GOOD THING that we now have to struggle to find ways to pay off both interest and principal to the tune of trillions -- meaning less of everything else -- including 'park service and trail maintenance' that seem so near and dear to us folks here.

You, do, huh? You think it's A GOOD THING that our nation is deep in debt and can't afford things THAT WE SHOULD BE FUNDING ... because, why, you think an important lesson will be learned from this?

I was among the 100,000 protesting this war in the streets of Washington 4 days before it was launched; do you think all of us and the rest of the 30% (plus children born after "Shock & Awe commenced) also deserve "less of everything"??

You're painting with a broad brush, in the color of collective punishment.

Of course it is collective punishment -- and a terrible one.  But can you think of any less terrible but still effective method to get our leadership and all of us collectively to be truly sober when it comes to starting a war -- to do so truly as a last resort?  Because I can't think of any.  Ideally, each generation will learn from their history books, but you know how that goes...  Vietnam War isn't that long ago, most of the vets are still very much alive, and still........

And one more thing to add:  I find the current rapid progress in drones esp. worrisome.  Why?  Because it is perceived to significantly lower the risks to our soldiers.  So why is that a bad thing?

IF our leadership can be trusted to use war only as a last resort -- then yes, every invention that can help us achieve our war aims while minimizing costs would be a good thing  BUT what's more likely to transpire is that the ever-lowering cost of war (at least as perceived by our politicians) -- may well cause them to engage our country into ever more wars -- esp. the undeclared types!!  And just as most wars escalate far beyond the initial vision of our politicians -- the final price tags -- despite the inventions -- may well be even higher than if we hadn't those inventions and declared fewer wars because of higher perceived costs.

I agree with most of what you wrote (and have made similar arguments myself) but I don't think the people who are predisposed to support military interventions like Iraq will come to understand its intrinsic folly and moral bankruptcy when federal fiscal bankruptcy bites them in the a$$.

The cure you think is a GOOD THING will negatively impact a lot of folks who didn't shout yee-hah when the bombs dropped, and more importantly, it's unlikely to make the USA a better force for good in the world.

Will fiscal stress and possible economic collapse at least serve to prevent the next destructive misadventure? Possibly, though I think a wounded Unlce Sam is potentially more dangerous than the Soviet Bear proved to be in its death throes.

Bottom line is, I think an economically strong America is better for the world and certainly for the people who live here. We need to change for the RIGHT reasons (not to be confused with the political right, which is almost always wrong in these matters ... aside from the libertarian wing).


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2013, 5:36 pm)
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... don't think the people who are predisposed to support military interventions like Iraq will come to understand its intrinsic folly and moral bankruptcy when federal fiscal bankruptcy bites them in the a$$.

The cure you think is a GOOD THING will negatively impact a lot of folks who didn't shout yee-hah when the bombs dropped, and more importantly, it's unlikely to make the USA a better force for good in the world.

Will fiscal stress and possible economic collapse at least serve to prevent the next destructive misadventure? Possibly, though I think a wounded Unlce Sam is potentially more dangerous than the Soviet Bear proved to be in its death throes.

Bottom line is, I think an economically strong America is better for the world and certainly for the people who live here. We need to change for the RIGHT reasons (not to be confused with the [i]political right
, which is almost always wrong in these matters ... aside from the libertarian wing).

Some more thoughts...

We haven't really been made to pay for our misadventures yet.  So the lesson has never been driven home before.  Worse, each time we get away without paying the piper, we become potentially more complacent when agitating for the next war.  And by "we" -- I mean mainly -- although not exclusively -- our political leadership.

But I must agree with you that having the world's strongest military power hurting economically does not bode for stability either.  It is not a good thing.

But I also wonder just how many more times we can get away with our aggression and arrogance and ignorance before some countries or another finally decide enough is enough?  I don't see this happening within our generation -- but if we keep acting up -- it will come eventually.  Then what?

By comparison, a lesson of economic suffering now -- to tie action with consequences -- might actually be the better alternative -- however unpleasant.  Who knows?

But know that my "wishing" is not so much itching to punish ourselves (I own stocks too so I have skin in our economic well being) -- but hoping for a change of behavior on our part -- before something truly disastrous strikes us finally.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

On the topic at hand we hope  for the same outcome, which is a good starting point for civil discourse on any of the critical issues we, collectively, face.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 8:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well said;

http://news.yahoo.com/folly-i....47.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 9:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Stay out of Syria.  I believe the good guys are bad guys too.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 10:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Mar. 16 2013, 7:14 am)
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Yes, very well said ... by Cynthia McKinney, who left the Democratic Party in 2007 because it wasn't left enough for her.

I'm curious -- and be honest now -- what was your stance on the Iraq war in 2002 & 2003? I'd be surprised, given your rhetoric in this forum, if you weren't among those calling the war critics appeasers, traitors, and "liberal bed-wetters" (as McKinney recounts).


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 10:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 16 2013, 10:12 am)
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Yes, very well said ... by Cynthia McKinney, who left the Democratic Party in 2007 because it wasn't left enough for her.

Cynthia Tucker and Cynthia mcKinney are the same person?

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 11:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimInMD @ Mar. 16 2013, 9:42 am)
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(Drift Woody @ Mar. 16 2013, 10:12 am)
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Yes, very well said ... by Cynthia McKinney, who left the Democratic Party in 2007 because it wasn't left enough for her.

Cynthia Tucker and Cynthia mcKinney are the same person?

OOPS!!!

Nevermind  :(


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