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Topic: NY Gun Show Operators Caught Illegally Selling, AR-15s to Undercover Agents< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 12:56 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Literally every time anyone says something about “gun shows” around here, several gun cultists pop up and deny that “gun shows” are a problem.

They always say something similar to “those selling guns at gun shows are dealers who know and follow the laws.”

Well, this seems to say otherwise.

Now New York will have slightly better control of “gun shows” because undercover agents were able to purchase AR-15s without background checks being conducted, even after stating that they could not pass background checks.

This is how someone loses their rights: taking the attitude that "the right to bear arms" is absolute, and throwing in a lot of greed, they abuse them until society has to crack down.
QUOTE
The investigators, posing as buyers in 2011, were able to purchase firearms even after they told the sellers that they had orders of protection against them, in which case they would fail background checks.

Mr. Schneiderman had brought criminal charges against the sellers caught by the undercover agents; in guilty pleas and a trial, the defendants were convicted of failure to perform a background check. His office also accused the show operators of failing to comply with a state law that requires them to post signs about the background check rule and to notify exhibitors about it. But in lieu of pursuing civil action against them, he sought to develop the new set of statewide security procedures.

"Undercover Inquiry Leads Gun Shows to Tighten Checks"
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 1:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Your balloon just popped Gabby!

Just goes to show you that the PRESENT laws are working just great!

Thanks so much for illustrating there is no more need for more!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 1:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You mean a bad guy could waltz right in to the gun show and buy an AR15?

Say it isn't so!
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trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 2:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What an outrage!  We should pass a law making it illegal to illegally sell guns!
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 2:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 15 2013, 11:43 am)
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What an outrage!  We should pass a law making it illegal to illegally sell guns!

Or maybe a law making it legal for law enforcement agencies to share information that would allow them to catch more violations like this one.

Just a thought.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 2:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 15 2013, 11:43 am)
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What an outrage!  We should pass a law making it illegal to illegally sell guns!

No need for any laws.
We have been assured that criminals don't actually buy guns - they just steal them.

So move along, nothing to see here.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 3:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Mar. 15 2013, 2:58 pm)
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Just a thought.

Oh, you don't need to do that TT, that's what Diane Feinstein is for. You just rest your pretty little head and concentrate on being happy happy joy joy and making the world a better place.

Remember, it takes a village to raise a non thinking slave!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 5:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

They probably thought it was fine to sell them since they would have to be turned in soon!

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2013, 10:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
NY Gun Show Operators Caught Illegally Selling

Not true. The people who put on the gun show didn't. Some private sellers, NOT licensed gun dealers, did.

Not that it's OK it happened but they could have just as easily done the buying out of the back of a car out in the parking lot where there is no requirement to perform a BG check.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 5:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, after all, Biden said. “I rather have an ex-felon have access to a weapon than someone fleeing the justice system.”

I guess he got his rather.

Or maybe he'd rather have the ATF do the illegal transaction?  Or, is that only for Mexico?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 10:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The rather telling part will be whether they charge them and convict them under the current laws

Probably not....because that requires effort

Passing laws is simple

anyone want to bet that they have stepped up these types of stings specifically to get headlines like this during the GC debates???

And after the dust settles they will go back to ignoring illegal gun sales


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 11:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm a gun owner and sport shooter...I shoot at pieces of paper...
I'm also in favor of strict enforcement of gun laws to hammer people that can not legally own a gun.

I've no problem with authorities coming down hard on people that are illegally selling guns...this includes private parties selling guns without a background check...


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 12:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KaiWinters @ Mar. 16 2013, 11:29 am)
QUOTE
I'm a gun owner and sport shooter...I shoot at pieces of paper...
I'm also in favor of strict enforcement of gun laws to hammer people that can not legally own a gun.

I've no problem with authorities coming down hard on people that are illegally selling guns...this includes private parties selling guns without a background check...

+ 1

Fully agree, they do nothing except smear the reputations of the 99.99% of the lawful gun owners!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 5:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
this includes private parties selling guns without a background check...

So I should be thrown in jail if I sell a gun to my brother without doing a background check when I already know his background?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 5:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 16 2013, 2:23 pm)
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QUOTE
this includes private parties selling guns without a background check...

So I should be thrown in jail if I sell a gun to my brother without doing a background check when I already know his background?

Given privacy laws is it even possible at the present time to access the background check system if you aren't a licensed firearms dealer?

ETA: Don't know about directly but a quick Bing found that Oregon's State Police Firearms Unit will do a check for a private seller.

http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/Pages/id/fics.aspx
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 5:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Not true. The people who put on the gun show didn't. Some private sellers, NOT licensed gun dealers, did.
You're right, though, if you read the article cited, the operators did, in fact, violate the law by not posting the required notices about background checks.

QUOTE
So I should be thrown in jail if I sell a gun to my brother without doing a background check when I already know his background?
My response would be 'yes', because we can't have a system of checks that has such huge loopholes that allow one person to acquire firearms for another person, who may or may not qualify. This seems pretty basic. I'm not all that naive, however, and I recognize that any real system of gun control is going to require the cooperation of everyone. As long as there are people out there who wish to subvert the intent of the law, then there will be problems.

Once again - despite the probability that this will be cited as reason enough to bring in vehicles as a point of comparison on statistics - isn't it the law that any transfer of  real property, such as cars and real estate, must be conducted under the auspices of government? Isn't title to an automobile or a piece of property (home or whatever) not valid unless it has been executed as a valid "transfer of property". Why would a system of control of anything, such as firearms, not need the same kind of "official transfer" in order to determine where the item in question originated, and who is the actual owner? (This is, by the way, the reason for the "double tag" system implemented as the result of the NY state agreement for gun shows.)
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 5:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 16 2013, 5:23 pm)
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QUOTE
this includes private parties selling guns without a background check...

So I should be thrown in jail if I sell a gun to my brother without doing a background check when I already know his background?

In NYS SAFE Act, there is an exception for family to family sales i believe.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 6:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I like looking at both sides of an argument being that I call myself a free thinker. Now that the NYS SAFE ACT is in place the point is mute, but here is the "coins" two sides at the time of the event;

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol....ackdown

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012....oophole

I like to sleep at night so I follow the letter of the law with everything I do! Pay my taxes, stop completely at stop signs, don't drive drunk and so on.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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In NYS SAFE Act, there is an exception for family to family sales i believe.
It has to be obvious that I was speculating, and not talking about current law in that post. As I said, any reasonable restrictions would necessitate the cooperation of people such as yourself, and that is clearly not forthcoming.

That's why I said in a post on this forum over a year ago that we should make NRA responsible for gun registration (and culpable in case of firearm-related disasters). No law is going to work if, like I've already read in the last few months, in regard to such laws, those who are responsible firearm owners decide to take some kind of "disobedience action". Somehow, gun owners need to be convinced that their best interests lie in the direction of keeping dangerous firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them - at least to the extent that is possible. To claim that the "right to bear arms" is absolute, and we should do nothing whatsoever, is to invite disaster eventually - not only for the nation, but for all responsible gun owners.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 6:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is what has people very concerned with NYS SAFE ACT.

First off, what a fool for doing what he did first off. Second, he is smearing the law abiding folks by his stupid act. It just seems odd that a few days ago what he did was perfectly legit. It seems hard to see what impact this will make on the issue of gun deaths and reducing them. All he had to do was sell it to a gun dealer or someone out of state and there would have been no crime.

http://www.guns.com/2013....n-video

I think this adds to what purpose is the act serving;

http://www.policymic.com/article....uestion

UPDATE: My bad, I didn't see that he knew the buyer was a felon. Curious though, if it was just a plant (the buyer) and the plant wasn't a felon, does it still count? Regardless, what a fool!

Here is the NYS SAFE ACT;

http://www.governor.ny.gov/2013/gun-reforms-faq


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 6:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Once again, I simply don't understand why gun owners don't get it: we have to control the sale of these kinds of weapons (or any firearms to at least some individuals) to avoid the kinds of tragedies/disasters that have become almost commonplace now.

I don't see any reason to prohibit the sale of virtually any firearm that seems reasonable (for whatever purpose) to actually privately own, but some weapons are on the order of tanks and bazookas - why in the world would you need them in the first place? Yes, it's a "free country", and there are at least some who interpret the second amendment as specifically saying that individuals may own arms (I'm almost positive that Chomsky is not one of them, since he clearly sees the government as constitutive of us in the first place - "The government is the only power structure that's even partially accountable to the population" from that quote I posted), but shouldn't that entail a corresponding responsibility? We think the same way about first amendment rights - why wouldn't we think that way about second amendment rights?
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 7:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Mar. 16 2013, 6:35 pm)
QUOTE
Once again, I simply don't understand why gun owners don't get it: we have to control the sale of these kinds of weapons (or any firearms to at least some individuals) to avoid the kinds of tragedies/disasters that have become almost commonplace now.

I don't see any reason to prohibit the sale of virtually any firearm that seems reasonable (for whatever purpose) to actually privately own, but some weapons are on the order of tanks and bazookas - why in the world would you need them in the first place? Yes, it's a "free country", and there are at least some who interpret the second amendment as specifically saying that individuals may own arms, but shouldn't that entail a corresponding responsibility? We think the same way about first amendment rights - why wouldn't we think that way about second amendment rights?

Kinda like the abortion debate; there is no bringing the two sides together. It ebbs and flows depending political timing, where you live and how you were raised. What's that movie called, It's Complicated!

I don't ever see an end to it, just people bunching up in places in this country where the people think alike. I know when I sell my home in NY I'm going 32 miles away to live in Vermont where everything and anything goes with firearms!
Very liberal state that accepts gays, progressive health care, democrats and republicans get along for the good of the people, high tech jobs, low unemployment, environmental protection to name a few things I like.
Just hope this gun debate doesn't melt down to civil war ,which it seems to be tilting in that direction, some day. We did that once and 646,392 ended up dead and wounded. There were only 38 million in this country at the time. Can you imagine between the population now and the modern weapons available what the toll would be?
Don't even want to consider it and I hope I am dead before anything like that happens!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 7:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There are a lot of similarities on the two issues (abortion and gun control). IMHO, both cases of opposition seem to originate from virtually the same kind of "religious fervor". If you challenge those who oppose abortion, you almost invariably end up somewhere in the vicinity of a "God abhors it" argument, or, at least, an "all life is sacred" argument.

If you challenge someone's allegiance to absolute gun rights, they almost invariably start talking about "Socialism" (as the enemy) and how all the other rights we have depend on gun rights. What they forget is their original dependence on the population in general for the "right" in the first place, and their obligation to show some kind of minimal responsibility in maintaining that right. We are "social" animals.

If you actually read Noam Chomsky, you would find that, as far as he's concerned, such arguments for gun rights are complete rubbish. Our other rights do not depend on gun rights, and there are clearly responsibilities that each individual citizen owes to the general population (which grants such rights in the first place) in order to claim any right, regardless what it is.

There will always be those out there who believe that they are completely independent of everyone else, and can "make it" on their own, and owe nothing whatsoever to anyone else.

Our rights are not independent of everyone else.

Our rights actually come from us, as a group.

We bestowed those rights on ourselves, and they entail responsibilities - responsibilities to the group as a whole, I might add. This is really what we're talking about here.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 8:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There are a lot of similarities on the two issues (abortion and gun control). IMHO, both cases of opposition seem to originate from virtually the same kind of "religious fervor". If you challenge those who oppose abortion, you almost invariably end up somewhere in the vicinity of a "God abhors it" argument, or, at least, an "all life is sacred" argument.

Yes god and guns go together (anti-theist here)

If you challenge someone's allegiance to absolute gun rights, they almost invariably start talking about "Socialism" (as the enemy) and how all the other rights we have depend on gun rights. What they forget is their original dependence on the population in general for the "right" in the first place, and their obligation to show some kind of minimal responsibility in maintaining that right. We are "social" animals.

Yes, there are extremists who spout that! (I know of none personally) All my fellow gun owners all support sensible gun laws, and are not absolutionists.

If you actually read Noam Chomsky, you would find that, as far as he's concerned, such arguments for gun rights are complete rubbish. Our other rights do not depend on gun rights, and there are clearly responsibilities that each individual citizen owes to the general population (which grants such rights in the first place) in order to claim any right, regardless what it is.

Partially agree, but if the entire 100 million gun owners all showed up in one spot at the same time, even if they all knew they were going to be slaughtered by tanks, artillery and planes anyway, it would be hard to say whoever their opposing wouldn't take "pause " at that. That would mean brothers, sisters, fathers, daughters and relatives would be killing themselves and each other.

Second, the "rights" that the population gives us was gained at the end of a gun barrel. It's hard to keep that perspective in 2013 and is easily dismissed.


There will always be those out there who believe that they are completely independent of everyone else, and can "make it" on their own, and owe nothing whatsoever to anyone else.

Never meet those kind of folks but there are "preppers"


Our rights are not independent of everyone else.

Our rights actually come from us, as a group.

That's were we agree to disagree, we think it's the founder fathers, bill of rights and the Constitution. "Us" and "groups" change over time, the things I mentioned don't.

We bestowed those rights on ourselves, and they entail responsibilities - responsibilities to the group as a whole, I might add. This is really what we're talking about here.

All firearm folks I know are the most responsible people I have ever met. They respect everyone's rights, they just get concerned when people don't respect theirs and want to take them away!


That is what we are talking about, taking away rights guaranteed to us! What the driving force behind that is the long, medium and very recent history of what happens to the average citizen when those incremental rights are taken away. In fact, if you look around at North Korea, Iran and other countries like those, there are no rights respected at all for "us and "groups"except serving the state at the end of their gun barrels!


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 9:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
isn't it the law that any transfer of  real property, such as cars and real estate, must be conducted under the auspices of government? Isn't title to an automobile or a piece of property (home or whatever) not valid unless it has been executed as a valid "transfer of property".

Yes and no.
If a vehicle will not be used on public roadways, it does not require registration, insurance or transfer of title.
Real estate falls under reporting requirements because there is no true private ownership. It can only be "rented" from the government through payment of taxes. Don't believe it? Don't pay the taxes and see how long you get to keep it.
QUOTE
Why would a system of control of anything, such as firearms, not need the same kind of "official transfer" in order to determine where the item in question originated, and who is the actual owner?

You believe it to be needed, I don't and I highly doubt we'll ever come to agreement on that.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 16 2013, 9:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Our rights actually come from us, as a group.

If rights must be granted then they aren't and can't be "rights".


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2013, 12:09 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 16 2013, 5:23 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
this includes private parties selling guns without a background check...

So I should be thrown in jail if I sell a gun to my brother without doing a background check when I already know his background?

If it is illegal in the state you live in then the answer is you should be charged with selling a gun illegally and pay the appropriate penalty. The sale of the gun legally is also the method to record the location of the gun and the current owner regardless of the relationship between seller and buyer. Whether or not you would serve any time is a different question.

If you had an arrest record for similar actions and apparently haven't learned anything nor stopped doing an illegal act then the answer would be "yes", off to the pokey with you for breaking the law repeatedly.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2013, 6:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Mar. 16 2013, 5:33 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Mar. 16 2013, 2:23 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
this includes private parties selling guns without a background check...

So I should be thrown in jail if I sell a gun to my brother without doing a background check when I already know his background?

Given privacy laws is it even possible at the present time to access the background check system if you aren't a licensed firearms dealer?

ETA: Don't know about directly but a quick Bing found that Oregon's State Police Firearms Unit will do a check for a private seller.

http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/Pages/id/fics.aspx

No, but several states require that all gun shows have the availability of instant check for private sales at gun shows

It is that way in Colorado, but it is anything but instant...on gun show weekends, the CBI grinds to a halt. I have made the mistake of purchasing weapons at gun stores on GS weekends in Colorado and by the time the authorization came through i had all but forgotten what I purchased

Most gun shows have become fairly lame in the last dozen years or so, but back when they were actualy worthwhile and I attended I rarely saw any private parties selling anything other than hunting arms or collectible weapons

The 40% statistic that the anti gun crowd likes to throw around refers to the folks selling accessories, tools, wood carvings and jerky

All without an FFL.....imagine :)

What nobody wants to admit, is that the surge in staes granting concealed carry licenses has provided a pretty good way to identify someone that is legally allowed to own a weapon. This method is used in lots of private transactions all of the time. And plenty of private transactions are also done across state lines and in those cases, the weapons MUST ship to an FFL who does the check and charges a small fee.

What most law abiding gun owners are balking at is the requirement that you sell through a dealer

Much like lots of people would protest if all vehicle sales had to go through a car dealer with some added fees


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Montanalonewolf Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2013, 6:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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If it is illegal in the state you live in then the answer is you should be charged with selling a gun illegally and pay the appropriate penalty. The sale of the gun legally is also the method to record the location of the gun and the current owner regardless of the relationship between seller and buyer.

It's Montana and such registration is not required here.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2013, 10:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Then you're good to go.
Here in newyorkistan it is illegal to blow a snot rocket...or will be soon.
It is illegal now to purchase a semi automatic gun...the latest murder, 4 shot and killed in Herkimer just a couple of days ago, was done with a shotgun. Also a mother was just stabbed to death by a very evil man with federal charges pending and cut off his tracker.

Gun laws take guns away from honest citizens. Criminals will buy them illegally or find another means to kill.
All of the recent shootings, not sure if the Herkimer person was legally able to own his shotgun, were done by people that could not legally own a gun but they managed to get them anyway.

I'd prefer to see a law requiring every citizen to openly carry a gun and deputize them to protect and defend as the situation requires. It would be wild for a bit but once the smoke settles we would have a much safer and respectful country.


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