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Topic: North Dakota lawmakers: life starts at conception, Seek to ban abortion< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 4:37 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

North Dakota lawmakers Friday completed action to outlaw almost all abortions, voting to define life as beginning at conception.

The Republican-dominated House also approved a so-called personhood amendment that asks voters to change the state's constitution to recognize and protect "the inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development." Besides conferring human rights on fertilized eggs and outlawing abortion, the proposition, which will be on the November 2014 ballot, could potentially affect end-of-life decisions for adults.


http://www.usatoday.com/story....2010747


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 4:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Three things:

1.  The small bunch of us who post about this topic regularly have aired our views pretty clearly by now.  We all know where we stand on this issue.

2   We are unlikely to change each other's minds on this forum.

3.  Do we really  want to rehash this yet again?  :D


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 5:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't know about abortion but they sure as heck just outlawed invitro reproduction assistance.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 10:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 23 2013, 4:50 pm)
QUOTE
Three things:

1.  The small bunch of us who post about this topic regularly have aired our views pretty clearly by now.  We all know where we stand on this issue.

2   We are unlikely to change each other's minds on this forum.

3.  Do we really  want to rehash this yet again?  :D

I'm sorry, I've never weighed in on this subject here so ill just say my piece now and then this thread can die, we won't have to discuss it anymore. And sense this forum has dealt with this subject and shelved it, I won't post the topic again.

I don't have a problem with abortion, I like how Bill Clinton said it, they should be safe, legal and rare.

But if the republicans would prefer to ban abortion, then they should be more forthcoming with aid for single mothers and providing easy/free access to birth control  and all the other things related where republicans tend to fall short socially.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 10:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What is life?

What does it mean to be human?

Machine? Animal? Both? More?

Priceless? Worthless?

Temporal? Eternal? Both?

What are the consequences if you are wrong?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 11:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A little philosophical there Ron.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 11:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 23 2013, 10:13 pm)
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A little philosophical there Ron.

Life and death is philosophical by nature.

Engaging in either without being philosophical is a waste at the minimum and a threat to others at worse.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 11:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 23 2013, 2:46 pm)
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...except for all things Catholic, that is...
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 11:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ron. @ Mar. 23 2013, 11:19 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 23 2013, 10:13 pm)
QUOTE
A little philosophical there Ron.

Life and death is philosophical by nature.

Engaging in either without being philosophical is a waste at the minimum and a threat to others at worse.

Easy bud, it wasn't a criticism.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 11:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben didn't tell me he is Catholic, that changes everything.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 23 2013, 11:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 23 2013, 10:27 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Mar. 23 2013, 11:19 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 23 2013, 10:13 pm)
QUOTE
A little philosophical there Ron.

Life and death is philosophical by nature.

Engaging in either without being philosophical is a waste at the minimum and a threat to others at worse.

Easy bud, it wasn't a criticism.

No worries, didn't think it was criticism.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 12:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

and this isn't an isolated example either. These ultra intrusive "big government" personhood
amendments have been really pushed hard by Republicans since 2011 whether it was at the
federal level(see Paul Ryan's attempts) or at the state level(more so at the state level). Oklahoma
also is a recent state to approve a bill that declares that life begins at conception


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes they are. I live there and it's a bright, flashy, hot red state, believe me.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I disagree that this has anything to do with big government.

Does ANYONE here believe it is "big government intrusion" to apprehend a person for murder?  Of course not.

So, the ISSUE here is whether or not a fetus is a human life. Many say yes.  And many say no.  And the debate rages on.  But masking this as "big government intrusion" or as "misogyny" or whatever other forms of hate is just that -- deflection from the issue.

Per my post above, I will not go into my views about life, etc. here.  All the views pros and cons have all been rehashed too many times -- with zero productivity.

Just want to say that the issue under debate is the presence (or absence) of life -- not about big government -- unless people also want the police to bugger off just because someone got killed...


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:08 pm)
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I disagree that this has anything to do with big government.

Does ANYONE here believe it is "big government intrusion" to apprehend a person for murder?  Of course not.

Well, yes if we're going to break it down to semantics.  Then yes, the gov't "intrudes" when they apprehend a suspect (note: they do not always get the right guy the first time, leading to further unnecessary "intrusion").  What exactly do they "intrude" on, you might ask?  Well, that would be an intrusion on the normal course of "moral capitalism", if you will.

The invisible hand of justice, if left alone to work in free private citizen markets, would likely result in retaliation of some sort from the original party to suffer the loss of a friend/family member.  Not ideal, sure, but stay with me for a moment here.

So therefor, until a state, by voter referendum, decides that life begins at the moment of conception (which has failed previously) the gov't should keep it's big man hands out of a woman's womb.  

ETA: My point being that ND legislature shouldn't be intruding into the existing status quo for women's rights (i.e. let them make their own decision with regards to their bodies - reasonably early on in a pregnancy), unless, and only when the entire electorate votes on the issue of personhood.

Should a state come to an agreement that, that moment is the moment of conception...then so be it.  And folks who disagree can move out of the state or be forced into less than desirable circumstances to proceed with the procedure anyway.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Only if your equating abortion with murder.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben2World Said
QUOTE

So, the ISSUE here is whether or not a fetus is a human life. Many say yes.  And many say
no.  And the debate rages on.  But masking this as "big government intrusion" or as
"misogyny" or whatever other forms of hate is just that -- deflection from the issue.


^^ LOL!! Check the above out

ben says 'But masking this as "big government intrusion" or as "misogyny" or whatever other
forms of hate is just that' and then follows that up with "deflection from the issue."

NO ben. You labeling(yet again Ben labels) it "Hate" is what is a deflection

as for this absurd idea it isn't big government

ya right

Its not big government for the government to

A) officially declare that human begins at conception

B) to use the power of the government to criminalize terminating what you believe is "human
life" at conception(we aren't just talking about people's personal views on abortion. We
obviously are talking about legislation which necessarily implies government enforcement).

Tell me Ben, what should be the punishment for a woman who terminates what you call a
"human life" shortly after conception if it were possible to do such a thing and for the
government to determine a woman did such a thing? How many years in jail should she get?


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:22 am)
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Only if your equating abortion with murder.

Exactly!  Some do and some don't -- and the debate continues on.  If it were easy, of course, we would have settled it long ago.

I never have much patience for those who support a big government role in programs they like and decry "big government intrusion" for those they don't.  The honest approach is to explain why the program or law in question stinks.

But as I said, I don't believe anyone here has his or her mind changed much as a result of forum postings...


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To give you an idea how unpopular and extreme these personhood amendments are consider two
states where these personhood amendments were put on the ballot: Colorado and ultra
conservative mississippi.

In Colorado these personhood amendments failed twice. Once in 2008 and again in 2010(over 45
points in 2008 and over 40 points in 2010). In 2012 there was a ballot petition to try once
again to put a personhood amendment in Colorado but even Republicans in Colorado, like
Jim Coors, said they would not be endorsing the personhood amendment this time

In ultra ultra conservative mississippi the personhood amendment was rejected by more
than 55% of the voters


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

or about this for extreme(while this is about Mississippi's version and not North Dakota's
I think most if not all of these personhood amendments have this same basic problem
described below)


On Tuesday (Nov. 8), Mississippi voters will decide whether fertilized eggs qualify as
"persons" under the law from the moment when sperm and egg meet. But while the law is
designed to challenge Roe v. Wade and outlaw abortion, doctors say that the wording is
also likely to outlaw common methods of birth control, including the birth control pill


That's because some of those methods may work, in part at least, by making the uterus
inhospitable to implantation by an fertilized egg, said Pittsburgh family physician Deborah
Gilboa. That could mean that some eggs become fertilized and are flushed out in women taking
a birth control pill, using an intrauterine device (IUD) or taking "Plan B," the
morning-after pill.


http://www.livescience.com/16917-m....ol.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:29 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
Only if your equating abortion with murder.

Exactly!  Some do and some don't -- and the debate continues on.  If it were easy, of course, we would have settled it long ago.

I never have much patience for those who support a big government role in programs they like and decry "big government intrusion" for those they don't.  The honest approach is to explain why the program or law in question stinks.

But as I said, I don't believe anyone here has his or her mind changed much as a result of forum postings...

Sure, such inconsistency doesn't move things forward. But there is a consensus that murder is wrong. And no such consensus exists on abortion, the two can't be compared.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 1:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:39 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:29 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
Only if your equating abortion with murder.

Exactly!  Some do and some don't -- and the debate continues on.  If it were easy, of course, we would have settled it long ago.

I never have much patience for those who support a big government role in programs they like and decry "big government intrusion" for those they don't.  The honest approach is to explain why the program or law in question stinks.

But as I said, I don't believe anyone here has his or her mind changed much as a result of forum postings...

Sure, such inconsistency doesn't move things forward. But there is a consensus that murder is wrong. And no such consensus exists on abortion, the two can't be compared.

Consensus?  Just saying how disingenuous some Democrats can be -- hearty supporters of big government programs suddenly decrying big government intrusion...


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 2:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This was from A North Dakota Republican talking about this personhood bill back in 2011
(when it was being prepared)


Many proponents stated that the purpose of the bill was to challenge Roe v. Wade. The
coalition that brought the bill forward included out-of-state extremists who have been
working unsuccessfully for years in many states to pass similar legislation. They want to
challenge Roe v. Wade and put the taxpayers of North Dakota on the hook for footing the
bill.

I consulted at least 15 attorneys, including several prosecutors, who said HB 1450 never
would withstand a constitutional challenge, and North Dakota taxpayers would spend a lot of
money on legal fees in a series of court battles that we would lose.


http://www.grandforksherald.com/event....40

The Republican from North Dakota who wrote the above is someone by the name of Curtis Olafson
and surprise surprise he lost a GOP primary challenge in 2012

http://www.personhoodusa.com/press-r....ampaign

This is how extreme Republican politics have become especially in the primaries

fortunately some GOP state lawmakers are protesting this bill

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....58.html

I wonder if they will lose their next GOP primary


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 2:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:41 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:39 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:29 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
Only if your equating abortion with murder.

Exactly!  Some do and some don't -- and the debate continues on.  If it were easy, of course, we would have settled it long ago.

I never have much patience for those who support a big government role in programs they like and decry "big government intrusion" for those they don't.  The honest approach is to explain why the program or law in question stinks.

But as I said, I don't believe anyone here has his or her mind changed much as a result of forum postings...

Sure, such inconsistency doesn't move things forward. But there is a consensus that murder is wrong. And no such consensus exists on abortion, the two can't be compared.

Consensus?  Just saying how disingenuous some Democrats can be -- hearty supporters of big government programs suddenly decrying big government intrusion...

Democrats and liberals don't run on being "Small government". That is the mantra conservative
Republicans run on.  Democrats/liberals have more nuanced position about the role of
government.

Furthermore if a so called "small government" conservative pounds his chest about how much
he is for "small government" but then endorses "big government" left and right that doesn't
make a liberal democratic inconsistent for pointing out the so called  "small government"
conservative's inconsistency and hypocrisy when they do love "big government".  Pointing
out that inconsistency doesn't mean they therefore endorse the "small government" narrative
absolutely.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 2:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To me, the central debate is whether a human fetus is also a human life.

All the stuff about big government intrusion or women haters, etc. -- are beside the point and patently unhelpful.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 2:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

IMO It makes NO sense to separate government enforcement of the legislation from what the legislation attempts to do

Without government enforcement the legislation would be pointless

Government enforcement is part and parcel of the debate and its usually the part where pro-lifers want to ignore


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 2:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sure, and if the majority sees a separate human life in a fetus -- then few will argue that protecting a life from murder is 'big government intrusion'.

The issue for those who disagree that there is a separate human life in a fetus should  put forth convincing arguments.  That protecting life is a big government intrusion is, again, nothing but a pointless deflection.  The only valid argument or defense is "there is NO life to protect at all and here's why...".


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 2:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:41 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:39 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Mar. 26 2013, 1:29 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Mar. 26 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
Only if your equating abortion with murder.

Exactly!  Some do and some don't -- and the debate continues on.  If it were easy, of course, we would have settled it long ago.

I never have much patience for those who support a big government role in programs they like and decry "big government intrusion" for those they don't.  The honest approach is to explain why the program or law in question stinks.

But as I said, I don't believe anyone here has his or her mind changed much as a result of forum postings...

Sure, such inconsistency doesn't move things forward. But there is a consensus that murder is wrong. And no such consensus exists on abortion, the two can't be compared.

Consensus?  Just saying how disingenuous some Democrats can be -- hearty supporters of big government programs suddenly decrying big government intrusion...

For clarity then. You asked if anyone here believes apprehending a person for murder is big government coercion. And I'm saying that no, of course no one thinks that. That would be because there is a consensus that murder is wrong. There is no consensus that abortion is wrong. So therefore the two cannot be compared.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 26 2013, 3:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It is North Dakota, where there is exactly 1 (one) abortion provider, and they are still in business.  If this legislation is upheld in court, and it will be challenged by the good folks of ND, it will only mean those women who have previously made their way to Fargo now have to go elsewhere.

If this is put to the voters, I think it will fail, much like Mississippi and other Conservative states where it has found it's way to the ballot.  

If this makes it to the USSC, I think the definition gets struck down as too restrictive on a woman's right to choose.  Without going further into the various issues that we all already know about each other, that will end my post on this for now.  I do not think this holds up under judicial scrutiny.  


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(ol-zeke @ Mar. 26 2013, 3:12 pm)
QUOTE
I do not think this holds up under judicial scrutiny.  

+1

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Duct tape is like the Force.  It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
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» Quick Reply North Dakota lawmakers: life starts at conception
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