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Topic: Coming Full Circle?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2013, 9:24 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Afghan president Karzai says Taliban leader Mullah Omar can run for presidency in 2014.  Yes, this would be in accord with the new democracy and all that.  But imagine all the ramifications if the Taliban should win...

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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2013, 9:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm not cut out for foreign diplomacy. I look at Afghanistan, North Korea and any number of countries, including our own (domestic policy) and think how F**ked up is that?

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"Travel suggestions from strangers are like dancing lessons from God." -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
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Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2013, 9:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Apr. 02 2013, 8:24 pm)
QUOTE
Afghan president Karzai says Taliban leader Mullah Omar can run for presidency in 2014.  Yes, this would be in accord with the new democracy and all that.  But imagine all the ramifications if the Taliban should win...

Since the Taliban will probably reclaim Afghanistan eventually, near term ballots rather than long term bullets might be preferable.

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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2013, 10:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As the insurgency and routine bombings continue in Iraq, and your suggestion that A-Stan returns to Taliban in the end, two US foreign policy failures and with Libya, Egypt and Syria unpromising, what is the likelihood of any success with Iran, NK or China.

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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2013, 11:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Apr. 02 2013, 9:33 pm)
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As the insurgency and routine bombings continue in Iraq, and your suggestion that A-Stan returns to Taliban in the end, two US foreign policy failures and with Libya, Egypt and Syria unpromising, what is the likelihood of any success with Iran, NK or China.

IMO:
Our invasion of Iraq was a war crime and a colossal blunder;
Libya & Egypt fall much more into the category of local developments than American "policy failures";
NK is a psychotic basket case we shouldn't play the game of sabre-rattling with;
Iran today is the unintended consequence of our 1953 coup and putting them under the Shah;
China is an economic competitor I wouldn't have included in this comparison;
We were justified in going after al Qaeda in A-Stan but should have gone in quickly and got out, or gotten real serious about nation building with much broader international support & finance, or not at all.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2013, 11:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Apr. 02 2013, 8:21 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Apr. 02 2013, 9:33 pm)
QUOTE
As the insurgency and routine bombings continue in Iraq, and your suggestion that A-Stan returns to Taliban in the end, two US foreign policy failures and with Libya, Egypt and Syria unpromising, what is the likelihood of any success with Iran, NK or China.

IMO:
Our invasion of Iraq was a war crime and a colossal blunder;
Libya & Egypt fall much more into the category of local developments than American "policy failures";
NK is a psychotic basket case we shouldn't play the game of sabre-rattling with;
Iran today is the unintended consequence of our 1953 coup and putting them under the Shah;
China is an economic competitor I wouldn't have included in this comparison;
We were justified in going after al Qaeda in A-Stan but should have gone in quickly and got out, or gotten real serious about nation building with much broader international support & finance, or not at all.

Agree, Woody.  If only we can keep reminding ourselves of "unintended consequences" -- maybe we won't be so trigger happy next time.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 8:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Apr. 02 2013, 11:21 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Apr. 02 2013, 9:33 pm)
QUOTE
As the insurgency and routine bombings continue in Iraq, and your suggestion that A-Stan returns to Taliban in the end, two US foreign policy failures and with Libya, Egypt and Syria unpromising, what is the likelihood of any success with Iran, NK or China.

IMO:
Our invasion of Iraq was a war crime and a colossal blunder;
Libya & Egypt fall much more into the category of local developments than American "policy failures";
NK is a psychotic basket case we shouldn't play the game of sabre-rattling with;
Iran today is the unintended consequence of our 1953 coup and putting them under the Shah;
China is an economic competitor I wouldn't have included in this comparison;
We were justified in going after al Qaeda in A-Stan but should have gone in quickly and got out, or gotten real serious about nation building with much broader international support & finance, or not at all.

The US is moving 60%!!!! Of its military assets to the west pacific. Guam is being refitted and retooled to become our largest military base in the world. The US is making agreements and port deals with several countries in the region. For the past decade China's defence spending has been on steroids. There's tensions between China and our allie Japan, both having provoked each other with minimal nevertheless naval and airforce manoeuvres. Everyone knows that China has been an enabler to NK, and presently they are mobilising troops to their common border, holding live fire drills in the Yellow Sea, near the Korean Peninsula. And the MIC, that monstrosity that Eisenhower warned us against building up has become the dreaded nightmare of which he was concerned, and it cannot exist in an atmosphere of peace. Conflict and war are its fuel. There are reasons to be concerned about conflict with China.

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Killing one person is murder, killing a 100,000 is foreign policy
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 10:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Apr. 02 2013, 10:21 pm)
QUOTE

(Montecresto @ Apr. 02 2013, 9:33 pm)
QUOTE
As the insurgency and routine bombings continue in Iraq, and your suggestion that A-Stan returns to Taliban in the end, two US foreign policy failures and with Libya, Egypt and Syria unpromising, what is the likelihood of any success with Iran, NK or China.

IMO:
Our invasion of Iraq was a war crime and a colossal blunder;
Libya & Egypt fall much more into the category of local developments than American "policy failures";
NK is a psychotic basket case we shouldn't play the game of sabre-rattling with;
Iran today is the unintended consequence of our 1953 coup and putting them under the Shah;
China is an economic competitor I wouldn't have included in this comparison;
We were justified in going after al Qaeda in A-Stan but should have gone in quickly and got out, or gotten real serious about nation building with much broader international support & finance, or not at all.

Interesting article on trusting our experts where it concerns war.

http://www.realclearscience.com/article....89.html

Begrudgingly I've come to the realization I was "had" regarding Iraq. I haven't decided if the deception  was out of Machiavellian designs on the region or an honest fear of WMD's.  

Regardless the result is the same.

President Obama compounded the Iraq fiasco with his Afghanistan surge. The one area Bush and Co. made the right call on President Obama blundered back into.

Once again the experts were wrong.


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Ben2World Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 11:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montecresto @ Apr. 03 2013, 5:12 am)
QUOTE
For the past decade China's defence spending has been on steroids.

True -- but we need to put that in the proper perspective!



It's 2010 data -- but I use it to provide a good visual comparison.  MIC has been out of control for decades now -- we are just so used to it we don't even feel any difference.  And we still accept the latest boogeyman (China) just as we have always accepted the past boogeyman (USSR).


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 12:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Your preaching to the choir. How many times in how many different ways have I pointed that out? US military expenditures have dwarfed the world for some time now. I'm just pointing out that beginning about the time that neocon warmonger took office, China's military expenditures have SKYROCKETED. And given US agressions of late, the shifting of 60% of our military assets to their neighbourhood, who could blame them.

Having grown at an average annual rate of more than 10 percent since the 1990s, China’s military spending is now poised to outstrip Europe’s for the first time in centuries.

http://oilprice.com/Geopoli....es.html


The Rand Corp. estimated China's ME at 38 billion in 03'. Your 2010 graph shows it to be near four times that. Still dwarfed by the US, sure, but growing at a pace faster than anyone else's. watch China. And god forbid we need ever really get into it with them, it won't be Iraq, or anything else we've tackled in the last 50 years.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 1:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not meant to be preaching, Monte.  Just a way of saying how insidious our MIC is.  China's 'runaway' defense spending is currently a favorite mantra.  And many are moved to be concerned -- just the way our MIC wants it.

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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 1:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sure, but I'm not one of the concerned ones about China's build up. It makes complete sense given the US threat to their region. If China becomes the first country that can back the US up from its bullying policies, great. I'd like to see a balance of power in the world. You know, balance is a good thing. Having one country pushing its way and its will around the world is not good. I realise it is to the small minded people that think its fine so long as it's us.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 1:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes, agree.  Sadly, there are still too many of us out there who still think that we do what we do because we are 'forced' to defend freedom and democracy all around the world.  NIC propaganda is so ingrained...

Ignorance aside, there is also the arrogance.  Back in 2002-3, we were so absolutely convinced that the Afghans and Iraqis will embrace secular democracy -- if we just get the message out correctly.  If I remember correctly, Bush put a marketing exec (Disney?) in charge of getting the message out...

Which makes a Taliban comeback so ironic!!


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2013, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

We agree.

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