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Topic: Big Bang Without God< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 2:13 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am soooo tired of the lame atempts to make god real.  Nice to see Hawking dealing with the issue directly.

He noted that many people still seek a divine solution to counter the theories of curious physicists, and at one point, he quipped, “What was God doing before the divine creation? Was he preparing hell for people who asked such questions?”

After outlining the historical theological debate about how the universe was created, Hawking gave a quick review of more scientific cosmological explanations, including Fred Hoyle and Thomas Gold’s steady-state theory. This idea hypothesizes that there is no beginning and no end and that galaxies continue to form from spontaneously created matter.


Hawking said this theory and several other ideas don't hold up, citing recent observations by space telescopes and other instruments.


http://science.nbcnews.com/_news....od?lite


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 5:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And may God bless you for posting this.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:01 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Which one?

Never can tell if its Thor, or Zeus, or Coyote.

But at least I pretty much hear from Coyote every evening, come to visit with my black coyote.  LOL


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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

9 out of 10 people will say "yes" when asked if they believe in "God".

When asked the followup question "Do you mean the God that did not send his son to die for the sins of the world" more than half of the 9 will say "No! No! No!"

When asked if they mean the God that appointed the Roman Catholic Church as God's representative on earth they'll scream "No! No! No!"  

Believing in god is similar to drinking wine.  The varieties and personal preferences are endless, and if you consume to munch you become delusional.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 3:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I always ask "if god created all life then how was god created?"...was he/she/it always there? If so how long is "always" before "life" was created?

Belief in god doesn't bother or worry me. What does is "religion". "Man" has used religion to control the world, generate hatred, murder and intolerance of others since some brainiac realized he/she could convince people that if they didn't believe in god and follow god's rule they would suffer in the next life and all manner of ills in this life is the result of not obeying. Great system!

I do not know if there is a god or not and frankly I don't care. If there is one why no help/involvement? We could certainly use god's help...unless god enjoys what is and has been going on in this world. If there isn't we certainly have been wasting a lot of time and energy making up all sorts of s..t he/she/it said to control us.

Does god support the muslim fanatics that murder people? Does god not care that many of his priests rape and sexually molest children?
I'd rather do "good" because it is the right thing to do rather than because some "priest" says if you don't you will go to some version of hell.

Rant over...move on folks...nothing to see here...


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 4:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Seems philosophy and theology aren't Hawking's strong suits just by nature of some of the cheap shots at straw men he makes. That's OK.

This is what is offered in place of the study of religion and metaphysics, lol, from the OP article.

QUOTE
M-theory posits that multiple universes are created out of nothing, Hawking explained, with many possible histories and many possible states of existence. In only a few of these states would life be possible, and in fewer still could something like humanity exist. Hawking mentioned that he felt fortunate to be living in this state of existence.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 4:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hawking is..........





a Quantum Physics god
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 9:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ron. @ Apr. 19 2013, 4:31 pm)
QUOTE
Seems philosophy and theology aren't Hawking's strong suits just by nature of some of the cheap shots at straw men he makes. That's OK.

This is what is offered in place of the study of religion and metaphysics, lol, from the OP article.

QUOTE
M-theory posits that multiple universes are created out of nothing, Hawking explained, with many possible histories and many possible states of existence. In only a few of these states would life be possible, and in fewer still could something like humanity exist. Hawking mentioned that he felt fortunate to be living in this state of existence.

Yes, this basically a sad joke and waste of time.  He offers possibilty of big bang without God, but  no inkling of a cogent theory to back up that possiblity.

I could understand how he might be angry at God.  Unfortunately that anger is misdirected.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 10:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And what's your cogent argument that one of the gods did it? I've never seen any evidence he's "angry". Perhaps you're just projecting.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 19 2013, 11:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've never seen any evidence that he/she/it is, period.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 6:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have no theory about how the universe began but when it comes up I always ask what was there before the big bang and what triggered the big bang to go boom?

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 8:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This country was founded, in large part, because many groups of people came here to escape religious persecution. As most know, this is one of the founding principles of this country.

It's important to keep in mind that those people were not fleeing the persecution of those without religion.

Almost invariably, their persecutors were those convinced, not that God didn't exist, but that their manner of worship was incorrect or heretical in the view of the persecutors' religion. In many (or most) cases, the persecuted simply didn't adhere to the "state religion" or the "authorized" religion.

How I feel about your religion or how you feel about mine or even whether or not religion is good or bad isn't what's important. It rightly shouldn't matter at all. It shouldn't be important what anyone's religion is.

What seems to be important today, like it or not, is that there is a kind of belief that you must "belong to the religion club". You must believe in God, or even some god. I get an image of the plant people in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", pointing out the ones who haven't been "converted".

Not having religion or belief in God is protected too. Or it should be. The religious should not have the right to impose their idea of the shape of the world on everyone else. The religious should not be allowed to direct government to enforce their beliefs. That's the beginning of "state religion".
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 9:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We already have a state religion Gabby, materialistic secular humanism.

Like all religions it is based upon unprovable presuppositions then built up "logically" from those assumptions.  

Eventually all religious expression will be contained and mandated to only take place in a box divorced from every day life. You may go to your house of worship on your given day and express your religious feelings.

All morality, ethics, lifestyles and thoughts that conflict with the state religion in the real world where we work and play will be cause for censure and derision. In some cases legal action will be taken against you, like if you refuse to raise your children according to the precepts of the state religion or if you head a religious institution that isn't inclusive and practices hate speech.

The shards of what is left of our constitutional government are the only thing keeping freedom of religion alive.

But all our rights are under attack and it is just a matter of time. Just look at current events; the terrorist just captured is going to be deprived of due process for public safety. We are being conditioned regularly to accept the loss of these freedoms, generally using logical arguments.

Liberty is a messy chaotic unplanned business. A state that demands fealty to a particular world view has no place for those who wish to practice freedom of conscience, free will or alas liberty.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 11:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Actually Gabby their behavior suggests to me they didn't all object to the concept of religious persecution, its just they wanted to be the ones doing the persecuting. Cross TPTB in the Massachusetts Bay Colony on religious grounds and you got banned to the wilderness: an effective death sentence.

So often the story: the "its OUR turn" phenomena.

Freedom from religious persecution became a founding principle after the revolution out of a pragmatic political observation that the different colonies could only join and survive if the joined together in more or less harmony. Absent that I expect the Puritans would have been just as happy to keep burning those troublesome Quaker women at the stake.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 1:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I read a book that said that it was actually New Amsterdam (ie New York) and the Dutch that brought religious tolerance etc., at least in part to this country.
It does tell of them accepting odd religions that neighboring English colonies would not, though I think some were so extreme and intolerant they were push out .

Of course there was the problem of trying to join colonies with different faiths.  And also part of the reason for the revolution was fear of England putting in  state church to extend its power if I remember right (at least for George Washington) but that was a different book.

I think Jefferson became President because the Baptist supported him since they were being discriminated against (oh the irony or politics makes strange bed fellows)


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 1:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Great to see some good insight on American history, and the political machinations that have shaped it, 9.

Now if I could only convince you that safer guns would be a very good thing for all us gun owners, and avoid erosion of our gun rights in the near future if we stick with the NRA sales pitch.

Oh, well, one step at a time, as always.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KaiWinters @ Apr. 20 2013, 6:42 am)
QUOTE
I have no theory about how the universe began but when it comes up I always ask what was there before the big bang and what triggered the big bang to go boom?

We are not exactly sure some speculate that we are just part of an older universe. It is okay to admit we don't really know. In science, it is okay to admit you don't know why.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 3:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Apr. 20 2013, 10:36 am)
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Now if I could only convince you that safer guns would be a very good thing for all us gun owners, and avoid erosion of our gun rights in the near future if we stick with the NRA sales pitch.

Oh, well, one step at a time, as always.

Not sure what u mean by this.

Safer guns, such as, and why u think I oppose this?

I don't support the NRA, I don't even own a gun, though I would not say that might not ever happen, like say if I had to live in the projects in Chicago, and I do see why some want them.

I certainly support background checks.


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(Ron. @ Apr. 20 2013, 9:22 am)
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We already have a state religion Gabby, materialistic secular humanism.

Really? How come those guys never knock on my door?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 5:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Apr. 20 2013, 1:30 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Apr. 20 2013, 9:22 am)
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We already have a state religion Gabby, materialistic secular humanism.

Really? How come those guys never knock on my door?

Were saving that for the next round of NIH budget cuts.

Or maybe a cookie drive?

Cookies $0.25

Followed a short while later:

Cookes antidote $100.

[Saw a terrific Gahan Wison cartoon on that with lemonade selling]
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 8:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I apologize 9, thought you were someone else!

Should have known that you were not from the literate and logical posts.

Won't happen again.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 8:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Apr. 20 2013, 12:36 pm)
QUOTE
Great to see some good insight on American history, and the political machinations that have shaped it, 9.

Now if I could only convince you that safer guns would be a very good thing for all us gun owners, and avoid erosion of our gun rights in the near future if we stick with the NRA sales pitch.

Oh, well, one step at a time, as always.

In many ways I identify with Roger Williams. It seems that there truly is nothing new under the sun.

I'll be reading some biographies of him soon; I have them on my Amazon wish list.

Being in Baptist or baptistic type churches on and off for a while now I've only been casually familiar with him. After reading an online article about him something resonated and I'll be reading up a bit on him soon.

QUOTE
Roger Williams (c. 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an English Protestant theologian who was an early proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation, which provided a refuge for religious minorities. Williams started the first Baptist church in America, the First Baptist Church of Providence. He was a student of Native American languages and an advocate for fair dealings with Native Americans. Williams was arguably the first abolitionist in North America, having organized the first attempt to prohibit slavery in any of the original thirteen colonies.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28theologian%29


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 9:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KaiWinters @ Apr. 19 2013, 3:38 pm)
QUOTE
I do not know if there is a god or not and frankly I don't care.

Really?  You don't care?  Then may I politely and sincerely ask why you asked the follow up questions below?

QUOTE
If there is one why no help/involvement?  We could certainly use god's help...unless god enjoys what is and has been going on in this world..... Does god support the muslim fanatics that murder people? Does god not care that many of his priests rape and sexually molest children?
There are simple answers to these question and I'd be happy to share them if your questions were sincere and not rhetorical.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 9:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ken has a direct line to god. We know this because he believes he does.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 9:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Apr. 20 2013, 8:51 am)
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This country was founded, in large part, because many groups of people came here to escape religious persecution. As most know, this is one of the founding principles of this country.

Wait, what?  "Religious persecution" is "one of the founding principles of this country"??!!
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 20 2013, 9:18 pm)
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Ken has a direct line to god. We know this because he believes he does.

I do?  So far you're the only one to make that claim.  I know I have never made it.  So what do you claim to know that I don't?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 20 2013, 9:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Apr. 20 2013, 4:30 pm)
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(Ron. @ Apr. 20 2013, 9:22 am)
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We already have a state religion Gabby, materialistic secular humanism.

Really? How come those guys never knock on my door?

Probably because you don't own a business while believing that paying for birth control is against your faith?
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 20 2013, 4:30 pm)
QUOTE

(Ron. @ Apr. 20 2013, 9:22 am)
QUOTE
We already have a state religion Gabby, materialistic secular humanism.

Really? How come those guys never knock on my door?

Has a Buddhist ever knocked on your door.  How about a Hindu?  Wicken?  Taoist?  The list is nearly endless.  Are you suggesting they don't exist because they haven't knocked on your door?

And specific to this thread, has Hawking knocked on your door?
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(wwwest @ Apr. 19 2013, 2:13 am)
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I am soooo tired of the lame atempts to make god real.  Nice to see Hawking dealing with the issue directly.

And I am soooo tired of the lame attempts to use cosmology to disparage religion.  Religion is about SO much more than cosmology.  What an exceedingly narrow and stilted vision.  Both for Hawking and for those who peddle his vision.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2013, 12:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah, Ken, mythology has not worked out, no matter how hard you try to peddle it.

The earth quakes were not divine, not retribution for supposed sins, not supernatural in any way.

They were just the normal course of nature at work, under the laws of the universe, and that is exactly why babies are born with spina bifida, and suffer as long as they live.  

Those same natural laws are why you and I will be dying when our bodies reach their limits and your god(s) will not interfere in any way.  

Supernatural, imaginary beings have no effect on the physical reality of life in the universe, no matter how much you and the other believers in mythology want to think that something should be able to protect you.

"Something" cannot do that, you just have to live and die like all of us.


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