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Topic: Guns and Gay Marriage, Focus On the End Goal< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 26 2013, 8:56 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Focus On the End Goal

The strategy to move legislation for both issues is the same. America is not ready for the end goal - so legislation must be accomplished in smaller steps. But "never, ever give up or stop pushing, even when you (temporarily) lose."

That is why neither issue will go away UNTIL the end goal is reached. Both issues looked stalled for now. But look for more and more legislative debate.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 26 2013, 9:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

From the article:

Our answer must be: "Never, never, never -- not one inch."  No universal background checks, ever.  Enforce the laws we have now.  Otherwise, game over for us.

This dude has been sufficiently brainwashed.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 27 2013, 10:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Apr. 26 2013, 6:56 pm)
QUOTE
Focus On the End Goal

The strategy to move legislation for both issues is the same. America is not ready for the end goal - so legislation must be accomplished in smaller steps. But "never, ever give up or stop pushing, even when you (temporarily) lose."

That is why neither issue will go away UNTIL the end goal is reached. Both issues looked stalled for now. But look for more and more legislative debate.

So you are fully in agreement with the NRA.  The purpose of the current legislation is to pave the way for stricter measures...eventually culminating in a total ban on firearm ownership in the USA.

I respect your honesty.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 28 2013, 2:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So you are fully in agreement with the NRA.  The purpose of the current legislation is to pave the way for stricter measures...eventually culminating in a total ban on firearm ownership in the USA.


No, I am in total disagreement with the NRA and with you.

The stubborn, irrational refusal to take sensible, logical steps toward making guns more safe is the pathway to gun confiscation when a large majority of Americans become impatient with this childish refusal to move toward safety and responsibility.  The NRA position is the greatest threat to our legitimate gun rights, in my opinion.

I am completely for reasonable and effective gun controls, and I am completely against confiscation of our shotguns, rifles, muzzle loaders and even some handguns.

Can you understand that many, perhaps most, current gun owners favor more effective gun controls, in spite of the hysterical claims of the NRA??


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2013, 7:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The NRA has been claiming for some time that the anti-gun camp will start by outlawing assault-weapons, but that their ultimate goal is to eventually outlaw all firearms.

It looks like Bass is fully in agreement with this strategy, which means that the NRA party line is correct.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2013, 8:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 30 2013, 4:30 pm)
QUOTE
The NRA has been claiming for some time that the anti-gun camp will start by outlawing assault-weapons, but that their ultimate goal is to eventually outlaw all firearms.

It looks like Bass is fully in agreement with this strategy, which means that the NRA party line is correct.

There are many gun owners here who support reasonable gun regulations.  This does mean that those same gun owners have an ultimate goal of outlawing all firearms.  Yet anyone who supports ANY regulation whatsoever is branded as anti-gun by the NRA and many of their rabid supporters.  

So who really is anti-gun?  Bass I guess, maybe ol-zeke.  No one else that I'm familiar with here - even though some of the drooling gun folks would like you to believe otherwise.

Oh, and the NRA is not a "party" (even though it may seem they are).
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2013, 8:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In a little less than 6 hrs Colorado will begin issuing "Civil Union" certificates for same sex couples.

Lines are already growing at all of the local government sites, most will open at 12 midnight, to issue those that are first in line.

I've owned dozens of guns in my lifetime, as a hunter and target shooter but haven't pulled one out in at least 10+ yrs.  

I have no problem with a total gun ban, except for traditional game hunting weapons, to allow those who still subsistence hunt, for their meals in season.

I'd like to see ALL handguns outlawed. All "Assault" weapons banned.

It's the NRA and all of the other "Gun Nuts" that keeps padding the election campaigns of our government representatives, that has kept this fiasco going on far too long.

Our government is far from a democracy, it's more of a payola scandal with most of the employees padding their pockets from PAC groups and retiring on their benefits.

If the US Public were allowed to vote on a weapons ban , the results would be interesting.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2013, 9:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Heck I'd just like to see a photo ID to vote....

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2013, 10:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Apr. 30 2013, 5:33 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 30 2013, 4:30 pm)
QUOTE
The NRA has been claiming for some time that the anti-gun camp will start by outlawing assault-weapons, but that their ultimate goal is to eventually outlaw all firearms.

It looks like Bass is fully in agreement with this strategy, which means that the NRA party line is correct.

There are many gun owners here who support reasonable gun regulations.  This does mean that those same gun owners have an ultimate goal of outlawing all firearms.  Yet anyone who supports ANY regulation whatsoever is branded as anti-gun by the NRA and many of their rabid supporters.  

So who really is anti-gun?  Bass I guess, maybe ol-zeke.  No one else that I'm familiar with here - even though some of the drooling gun folks would like you to believe otherwise.

Oh, and the NRA is not a "party" (even though it may seem they are).

Edit: Should read:  This does not mean that those same gun owners have an ultimate goal of outlawing all firearms.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2013, 10:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(swimswithtrout @ Apr. 30 2013, 8:57 pm)
QUOTE
In a little less than 6 hrs Colorado will begin issuing "Civil Union" certificates for same sex couples.

Lines are already growing at all of the local government sites, most will open at 12 midnight, to issue those that are first in line.

I've owned dozens of guns in my lifetime, as a hunter and target shooter but haven't pulled one out in at least 10+ yrs.  

I have no problem with a total gun ban, except for traditional game hunting weapons, to allow those who still subsistence hunt, for their meals in season.

I'd like to see ALL handguns outlawed. All "Assault" weapons banned.

It's the NRA and all of the other "Gun Nuts" that keeps padding the election campaigns of our government representatives, that has kept this fiasco going on far too long.

Our government is far from a democracy, it's more of a payola scandal with most of the employees padding their pockets from PAC groups and retiring on their benefits.

If the US Public were allowed to vote on a weapons ban , the results would be interesting.

I don't post here often (or at all for that matter), but this post so clearly articulates my history and position on the matter, that I could not resist adding my hearty +1!

Thanks for all of this post.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 12:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This article says left accepting a new reality, but it could be just a step toward Z?

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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 12:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 30 2013, 6:30 pm)
QUOTE
It looks like Bass is fully in agreement with this strategy, which means that the NRA party line is correct.

Consider the source. Bass steadfastly argued we should nuke Libya over the Benghazi incident. The only views he represents are his own.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 12:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The question that no one seems to be asking is why the NRA supports terrorism.

The people who are benefiting most from no universal background checks and not tagging powder/explosives are the terrorists, not law abiding citizens.

Well, lets not forget the arms industry that is laughing all the way to the bank at the fools that empty the stores of guns and ammunition every time they crack their whip.

Before someone labels me antigun, I have owned guns and had a carry permit longer than many of you have been alive. I am not easily brainwashed however.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 7:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(dayhiker9 @ Apr. 30 2013, 11:44 pm)
QUOTE
This article says left accepting a new reality, but it could be just a step toward Z?

+1 Great link!

The agenda - the end goal - is still the same. The article points out that openly seeking to ban guns alienates too many. Better to appeal to gun owners with words like "common sense" and preface incremental gun control laws with, "As a gun owner, I support this restriction on gun ownership".

Especially noteworthy form the article:

Gun-control groups don't even use the term "gun control," with its big-government implications, favoring "preventing gun violence" instead. Democratic politicians preface every appeal for reform with a paean to the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and bend over backwards to assure "law-abiding gun owners" they mean them no ill will. Even the president, a Chicago liberal who once derided rural voters' tendency to "cling to guns or religion," seeks to assure gun enthusiasts he's one of them by citing a heretofore-unknown enthusiasm for skeet shooting, adding, "I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting that trace back in this country for generations. And I think those who dismiss that out of hand make a big mistake."

A frequent question in the current battle over gun control is why anyone should expect reform to succeed now when it's failed repeatedly for the last 20 years. Maybe this is why: Between then and now, advocates of gun control got smarter. They've radically changed their message into one that's more appealing to Middle America and moderate voters.

In the late '90s, "Democrats and gun-control groups had approached the debate consistently in a way that deeply, almost automatically alienated a lot of gun owners," said Jon Cowan, former president of a now-defunct group called Americans for Gun Safety.



In summary, we must continue to talk to gun owners as if we support their mythical right to own guns - even while we work to take their guns away. Alienating gun owners has not worked in the past. And making America a gun free society must be done in small increments - no one sweeping gun confiscation legislation.

We must keep adding "reasonable" and "common sense" laws and requirements until the burden of gun ownership is just too much for all but the very wealthy. A universal background check process that starts out as only a small burden with a small fee can slowly balloon. A seemingly "reasonable" ban on semi-automatic guns can slowly expand to revolvers and even double barreled shotguns. A "common sense" law that be required to posses liability insurance can be slowly expanded and made to be very expensive.

All of this and more can be done under the pretext to "promote gun safety" and "gun owner rights". Each small step is one more small step toward a gun free America that does not alienate gun owners. In fact, it is necessary to sell each step to gun owners.

That is the way to reach the end goal of a gun free America.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 7:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

mtnsteve
QUOTE
The question that no one seems to be asking is why the NRA supports terrorism.


The NRA IS a terrorist organization run by angry old white men who want America to return to the pre gun control days of the 1950's and 1960's when daily gunfights in the streets, hijacking airplanes to fly to Cuba, and shooting Presidents and politicians were the norm.

As I posted in previous threads, we must utilize the IRS and regulatory agencies to harass them out of existence. Seizure laws can be used to confiscate their assets for some perceived violation as was used recently to hobble the FLDS cult. Or we can investigate them endlessly - until people are afraid to even talk to them - as was done with the KKK.

Getting rid of the NRA - which serves as a terrorist think tank - is a priority.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 9:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The NRA is an organization that supports the rights of gun owners.  Some people have claimed that they're somewhat paranoid for claiming that legislation against high-capacity magazines, etc. is just a first step towards an outright ban on all gun ownership.

You seem to give credence to their arguments.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 10:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ May 01 2013, 6:44 am)
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The NRA is an organization that supports the rights of gun owners.  

That priority is far below their intent to support the economic interests of the industry they represent.  And they support that industry under the banner of the flag and the constitution.

The NRA is no different than a televangelist.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 10:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Apr. 30 2013, 5:33 pm)
QUOTE
So who really is anti-gun?  Bass I guess, maybe ol-zeke.  No one else that I'm familiar with here - even though some of the drooling gun folks would like you to believe otherwise.

For the record, I am not anti-gun, but may be perceived as such by some.  I am anti handgun, and semiautomatic any kind of gun.  In fact, I would prefer every gun to be single shot, and at least 30 inches in overall length.  That would be nice if the rifles were bolt action, as I see them as more accurate than other single shot designs.  Shotguns could be breech load.  

My stance is to acknowledge the rights of hunters to continue to put food on their tables, and to protect the society by making it more difficult to hide guns on a person, and to reduce the numbers killed by mass murderers.  

Yes, I listed guns under the 5 things I could live without being in our society, but I did not claim they should all be abolished.  It was just my own view.

Thanks for putting the maybe in front of my name, and allowing me the chance to explain my views.  


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2013, 1:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ May 01 2013, 8:58 am)
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I am anti handgun, and semiautomatic any kind of gun.  In fact, I would prefer every gun to be single shot, and at least 30 inches in overall length.  That would be nice if the rifles were bolt action, as I see them as more accurate than other single shot designs.  Shotguns could be breech load.  

So I would need to get rid of these?





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(ol-zeke @ May 01 2013, 7:58 am)
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For the record, I am not anti-gun, but may be perceived as such by some. 
Just for the record, I am not pro-gun, I am just against stupid feel-good laws that create more problems than they solve.

Such as an assault rife band. Ban it only because it looks more scary than some other rifles that have the exact same capacity?

We have more guns than people in this country. No new law is going to change that.

-Don-


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PostIcon Posted on: May 06 2013, 6:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Don, you have me wondering if an assault rifle band would be a feel-good experience. I think that I would like it better than most rap artists.  :laugh:

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(wwwest @ Apr. 28 2013, 2:19 pm)
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I am completely for reasonable and effective gun controls, and I am completely against confiscation of our shotguns, rifles, muzzle loaders and even some handguns.

Can you understand that many, perhaps most, current gun owners favor more effective gun controls, in spite of the hysterical claims of the NRA??

When you say "rifles", does that include semi automatic rifles?

Or do you, like the esteemed Senator Feinstein, wish to confiscate such rifles and remove them from public possession?
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PostIcon Posted on: May 08 2013, 2:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Personally I would be perfectly fine with getting rid of semi auto rifles if that were shown to be an effective way to make guns safer, and/or a way to solidify political support for effective gun controls.

I own only one semi auto rifle, a .22, and I like my single shot and pump action .22 much better anyway.

If we could get rid of the high capacity magazines and the macho military wannabe semi autos but still keep the semi auto hunting rifles and shotguns, that would be fine with me too.  I think they are a crutch for semi incompetent hunters, but there is nothing wrong with them in general, just that they seem to justify the semi auto assault rifle syndrome of the macho gun nuts.  YMMV


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