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Topic: Obama blames American Guns, For Mexican Violence< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 9:59 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Obama Blames American Guns For Mexican Violence
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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 10:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Guns from the US are responsible for the violence and deaths in an otherwise peaceful Mexico. Without US smugglers smuggling guns into Mexico, Mexico's stringent gun laws would prevent gun deaths.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 10:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And he should know.....can you say "Fast and Furious?"

The Obama administration sold 30,000 weapons to Mexican gangs....30,000!

http://www.naturalnews.com/032934_ATF_illegal_firearms.html
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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 10:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think that gun stores in Texas, and Arizona have a lot more to do with the availability of guns in Mexico than the ATF. Of course, conservatives are far more committed to a war of words than actually doing anything about the problems, especially if there are more profits to be made by ignoring the problems.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 10:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ May 03 2013, 10:23 pm)
QUOTE
I think that gun stores in Texas, and Arizona have a lot more to do with the availability of guns in Mexico than the ATF. Of course, conservatives are far more committed to a war of words than actually doing anything about the problems, especially if there are more profits to be made by ignoring the problems.

Texas, with permissive gun laws, has an intentional homicide rate of 5.4 per 100,000

Mexico, where legal ownership of a firearm is almost impossible, has an intentional homicide rate of 22.7 per 100,00.

Is your contention permissive gun laws cause high homicide rates?
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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 10:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Three, you are smarter than that. The availability of weapons in nearby, but different legal jurisdictions is the problem. You know this, but choose to play it down.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 10:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ May 03 2013, 10:49 pm)
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Three, you are smarter than that. The availability of weapons in nearby, but different legal jurisdictions is the problem. You know this, but choose to play it down.

Ecocentric, no my friend you are the smart one.

If legal availability of guns was the driver of homicide rates, Texas would be high and Mexico's low.

Is it possible, maybe that there is a reason other than gun laws that Mexico has off the charts violence and Texas does not?
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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 11:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No one with any real intelligence could truly believe that US guns are the root cause of gun violence in Mexico.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 11:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

MLW, not the cause, just the means. A grasp of economics or ecology would make it obvious that all commodities, raw materials or manufactured goods, flow from where they are found/manufactured to where they are used. Dude, this is reality. Reality check, they would be making more guns in Mexico if it were more profitable there.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2013, 11:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm not too sure gun manufacturing is currently legally permitted in Mexico.

But guns, regardless of source, are not the root cause of violence. Illicit drugs in demand in the US are. So a case could made that anyone who uses illicit drugs is contributing to gun violence in Mexico AND here. If guns were not available, drug based killings would still happen. They'd just use things like hammers and machetes.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 7:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ May 03 2013, 10:40 pm)
QUOTE
MLW, not the cause, just the means. A grasp of economics or ecology would make it obvious that all commodities, raw materials or manufactured goods, flow from where they are found/manufactured to where they are used. Dude, this is reality. Reality check, they would be making more guns in Mexico if it were more profitable there.

+1 ..... Exactly!

This is why the US needs to support and strengthen the UN Small Arms Treaty.

Outlawing guns in the US won't work any better than outlawing guns in Chicago or DC has - guns will simply be smuggled in to fill the demand for them. Same thing happened with the failed prohibition of alcohol in the 1930's.

In addition to banning and confiscating guns in the US, the US must take a leadership role in strengthening and enforcing the UN Small Arms Treaty. Otherwise, illegal guns, like illegal drugs, will be smuggled from distant countries like Israel or Iraq into the US.

Guns from the US are creating violence and misery in Mexico. The US should be ashamed of this.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 8:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Guns from the US are creating violence and misery in Mexico.

Horse crap. The guns are NOT creating the violence in Mexico. A great deal of violence exists in Mexico AND the US  due to the support of the illicit drug demand in the US. Guns facilitate violence but they do not "create" it.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 8:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ May 03 2013, 9:23 pm)
QUOTE
I think that gun stores in Texas, and Arizona have a lot more to do with the availability of guns in Mexico than the ATF. Of course, conservatives are far more committed to a war of words than actually doing anything about the problems, especially if there are more profits to be made by ignoring the problems.

I believe you mean the weekly gun shows here in Tejas.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 9:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Texas and Arizona have done everything they could to facilitate the sales of guns that cross the border. I think that lonewolf has a hierarchy of inanimate objects. Drugs cause violence but guns are just innocent tools. It is no coincidence that they are the two most highly traded items in the world. It is possible that the most idiotic meme of the century is, "guns don't kill people." Drugs, cars, knives, disease, angry husbands, and guns are ALL things that kill people.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 9:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Are you saying that if there was zero demand for drugs supplied through Mexico that the level of violence there would not decrease?
Same question applied in the US.

Of course there are a lot of things that are capable of causing death but would they still kill if not under the control of humans?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 9:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What I'm saying is that if the supply of guns were cut off there would be less mayhem.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 10:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I doubt it with the huge demand for drugs in the US. It would take different forms but it would remain at roughly the same level it is now.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 12:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ May 03 2013, 7:09 pm)
QUOTE
And he should know.....can you say "Fast and Furious?"

The Obama administration sold 30,000 weapons to Mexican gangs....30,000!

http://www.naturalnews.com/032934_ATF_illegal_firearms.html

That would have greater relevance if it weren't for the fact that gun violence in Mexico has been off the charts since long before anyone ever knew the names Obama or Fast and Furious.

But it does highlight what a great job the right-wing media and blog-o-sphere has done of pinning the responsibility for Mexico's problems on a president they dislike.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 1:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ May 03 2013, 7:09 pm)
QUOTE
And he should know.....can you say "Fast and Furious?"

The Obama administration sold 30,000 weapons to Mexican gangs....30,000!

http://www.naturalnews.com/032934_ATF_illegal_firearms.html

Let's see, the right says they will get guns anyway, and guns don't kill people, people do, and so what do they complain about?

Oh, I wondered why your link talks about 30,000 ATF guns while the above says more like 2,000.

It seems , without doing more research that article misquotes its own Rueters source:

QUOTE
Of the nearly 30,000 firearms recovered in 2009 and 2010 in Mexico, where gun possession is illegal, some 70 percent were determined to have come from the United States, ATF officials told lawmakers last week.


ie 21,000 guns come from the US , and it does not say how many of those are from Fast & Furious.

I don't see where he said his measures would cut deaths by a certain percentage, ie guns sales aren't the only reason.

Still would anyone want to see us arm drug dealers  with illegal guns to use on Mexicans or increasingly Americans.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 4:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Reality is unimportant when your fantasies are fixed on guns.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 04 2013, 10:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Some countries like Mexico have more violent cultures than the US. And Mexico's murder rate is actually not that bad when you compare it to the murder rates of many of the other Latin American countries. Check out the murder rates of the Central and South American countries here: link

You can't pin all the violence in Latin America on the US, and Mexico is part of that culture. With or without guns from the US their murder rate will be high.

---George
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(Ecocentric @ May 04 2013, 9:31 am)
QUOTE
What I'm saying is that if the supply of guns were cut off there would be less mayhem.

30,000 guns went to Mexico via the ATF.  Did you read the link Lamebeaver posted?

If we had less ATF there would be less mayhem.

The US government, not the licensed gun dealers, are the ones who provided many of the firearms to Mexico.

Iran Contra all over again?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 05 2013, 11:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong Slinger? YOU didn't read Dayhiker9's post #19.


QUOTE
In Fast and Furious, agents lost track of about 1,400 weapons they were tracking after they were sold to low-level straw purchasers believed to be supplying Mexican drug gangs and other criminals. Another 700 firearms connected to suspects in the investigation have been recovered, some from crime scenes in Mexico and the U.S., including a murder scene in Nogales, Ariz., where border agent Brian Terry was slain.

The Center For Public Integrity

The Daily Mail says 2,000 guns of which 1,400 have not been recovered.

ABC News reported, "As part of Operation Fast and Furious, ATF allowed 1,961 guns to "walk" out of the U.S. in an effort to identify the high profile cartel leaders who received them. "


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PostIcon Posted on: May 05 2013, 7:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi...


So...according to Obummer...illegal aliens from Mexico are helping to strengthen our Country...!! Hey...put a sock in it, Obummer...!!

Another politition telling a lie? WOW...who knew...!! :angry:
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PostIcon Posted on: May 06 2013, 1:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Facts are powerful things

http://www.foxnews.com/politic....co-come


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PostIcon Posted on: May 06 2013, 2:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Good article, BiilBab. All politicians are liars, but I used to think the Republicans were worse. Now, with the recent gun control push, it is obvious that the Democrats are just as bad.

---George
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(BillBab @ May 06 2013, 12:34 pm)
QUOTE

+1 ..... Great article!

And this points out why the US must spearhead the UN Arms Treaty and enforcement!

Banning guns in the US MUST include banning guns in other countries. Otherwise, guns will just be smuggled into the US  - as guns and heroin are currently smuggled into Chicago.

From the article:

- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

'These Don't Come From El Paso'

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PostIcon Posted on: May 06 2013, 4:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"the UN Arms Treaty" since that addressses legal sales and transfers it wouldn't even brush up against all that (already) illegal activity you've listed for Mexico.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 06 2013, 5:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ May 05 2013, 11:53 am)
QUOTE
Don't you ever get tired of being wrong Slinger? YOU didn't read Dayhiker9's post #19.


QUOTE
In Fast and Furious, agents lost track of about 1,400 weapons they were tracking after they were sold to low-level straw purchasers believed to be supplying Mexican drug gangs and other criminals. Another 700 firearms connected to suspects in the investigation have been recovered, some from crime scenes in Mexico and the U.S., including a murder scene in Nogales, Ariz., where border agent Brian Terry was slain.

The Center For Public Integrity

The Daily Mail says 2,000 guns of which 1,400 have not been recovered.

ABC News reported, "As part of Operation Fast and Furious, ATF allowed 1,961 guns to "walk" out of the U.S. in an effort to identify the high profile cartel leaders who received them. "

(NaturalNews) It is now a widely-reported fact that under the Obama administration, U.S. federal agents actively placed over 30,000 fully-functional weapons into the hands of Mexican drug gangs, then halted all surveillance and tracking activities of where those weapons were going.

Learn more: (NaturalNews) It is now a widely-reported fact that under the Obama administration, U.S. federal agents actively placed over 30,000 fully-functional weapons into the hands of Mexican drug gangs, then halted all surveillance and tracking activities of where those weapons were going.  Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032934_....RL]


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PostIcon Posted on: May 06 2013, 5:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

"30,000 fully-functional weapons"

Factually inaccurate. Also logically impossible as the TOTAL number of firearms confiscated was 30,000. So unless every single firearm in Mexico came from the Fast and Furious program that's a crashing "FAIL".

The total of all confiscated illegal weapons was 30,000*. Approximately 70% of those were traceable back to the United States, while the total of firearms they in the Fast and Furious operation was approximately  2,000 as the OP article mentions: "the more than 2,000 firearms that his Department of Justice ‘walked’ across the Mexican border as part of Operation Fast and Furious, a federal law enforcement project that aimed to track weapons to drug traffickers."

* Per Reuters: "Of the nearly 30,000 firearms recovered in 2009 and 2010 in Mexico, where gun possession is illegal, some 70 percent were determined to have come from the United States, ATF officials told lawmakers last week."

http://www.reuters.com/article....0110615

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news....YDc1mrn
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It may be "widely reported" by the right wing echo chamber, gods know they like to copypaste each other. But repeating such an erroneous distortion endless times doesn't, surprise, make it any less of a distortion.

Two thousand is still far too many but it's hardly everysingle firearm in Mexico as the rightwing chanters would have people believe based on the talking points.
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